Could you all please indulge me, and debate the usefulness of West Civ vs. World Hist

[Rhondabee]

I think this is the last hurdle in my quest to finally make a decision about 9th grade. (I think!)

 

I *think* I'd really like to study as many other worldviews (Hindu, Buddha, Taoism) as possible in high school, reasoning this is the last chance I'll get to discuss these things with ds.

 

But, then I thought maybe SWB was trying to limit the seemingly infinite "possibilities" by sticking to West Civ.

 

But, then she wrote "The History of the Ancient World", which *is* about the *whole* world.

 

But, then TOG has been so overwhelming to so many people, and it seems to pretty much try to cover all of World History. Maybe that contributes to its overwhelming-ness??

 

idk - these are just the merry-go-round of thoughts rattling in my brain. Would love to hear yours!

 

Rhonda

[MotherLode]

The question is which history to choose. Shall you focus on the Western World, or the whole World? Will your children only be effected by the western world, or will they be effected by the entire world? If you study the entire world, how deeply do you want to study it? How far do you want to delve into world religions? I'm not familiar with SWB's Ancient History book...does it cover religions in depth or just the basics?

 

One answer you should know is your world view. Do you hold all religions are equal or that there is only one true God? If it is the latter, who is your God? The first option would make you a pluralist, and the latter, depending on your answer, identifies your religion. If you don't believe in any particular god then you could be a humanist (humanity rules); an agnostic (I think there a god, but don't know which one), or an aethiest (there is no god).

 

If you hold to one god, why would you want to study other religions in depth? Your children are very impressionable (and will be for a long time). Would it not be better to study what you believe to be true in depth so you and your children know why you know what you know?

 

Consider the Secret Service. One of their duties is to identify currency forgery. They do it by studying the real bills, because when they know the truth, they easily recognize a fake.

 

When it comes to the subject of "God" that's a very important truth. Your answer to "who is God" directly determines what you believe happens after you die...do they throw dirt on your face, or do you stand before your god? Is there a judgement involved? What are the potential outcomes?

 

Those can be (depending on your answers) very important values to secure in the understanding of your children. A land's understanding of god directly effects the actions of their people, and of their government, and how both behave. A corrupt government can be directly traced back to how their view of god, and of their fellow man. (The first table of the 10 commandments is about a relationship with God, the second table is about a relationship with man, and you can't do the second table without the first!)

 

With the variety of world events, and our location in a large urban center, different religions and their symbolism are everywhere. Discussing current events with our children is more than enough exposure to other religions. We are able to explain to our children what (the person of action) believes in comparison to what we believe, and how their actions show what they believe about god and man.

 

We teach our children to be respectful of others, yet there is only one truth. This is only one example of how we ground them in the truth, and help them understand the falseness of other religions.

 

I have witnessed too many of my childhood schoolmates jump to a world view other than that of their parents because they were not well grounded in what they believed. Therefore, I want our children well grounded.

 

Identify your end goal, keep your eye on the prize, and work backward from there.

 

ML

[Mad Jenny Flint]

Only because I like the streamlined nature of it. We'll be covering it in two years with Spielvogel's text. The way I figure it, high school is a time for overview and getting your bearings, making connections and forming some (limited) opinions and some solid basic skills. College is for building on that foundation and possibly doing some specialization. Others will have good reasons for their differing opinions.

[SheWhoWaits]

If you hold to one god, why would you want to study other religions in depth? Your children are very impressionable (and will be for a long time). Would it not be better to study what you believe to be true in depth so you and your children know why you know what you know?

ML

 

I'd like to respectfully disagree here. I absolutely agree that you should study your own culture/religion in depth. BUT it's also important to recognize that other cultures have something valuable to contribute to the world, AND that our own religion/culture has and does make mistakes. We are human and sinful even though we worship the true God. I believe in giving children a rock solid grounding in my faith, and I do so. But we also study other religions and cultures. For example, when we studied Islam, we did so from a book written from a Muslim. My ds (who was in 5th grade at the time) recognized quite quickly that the book was written from a Muslim perspective. That he could detect the slant in the material tells me that he knows his own faith well. To only expose my children to those who think just like me is to deny them the opportunity to evaluate other viewpoints while I am still there to guide them. They WILL be exposed to those viewpoints in college and afterwards as they interact with co-workers, so it's my job to prepare them now. Besides, I must admit, I really enjoy learning about other cultures and religions, and want to share that joy with my dc.

[Matryoshka]

I've currently been debating the same thing round and round - we'll be starting with the ancients next year after 4 years of US history (kids will be in 6th). My original plan was to do Western Civ for two years, then a semester of Asian and a semester of African history (well, the Asian "half" of the year would probably have been a bit longer). I still really like that idea, but based on recommendations here I bought the Human Odyssey by K12, which is World History, and it's such a nice text, and integrates everything so nicely, that I think I may just follow its flow, although my mind isn't yet completely made up. Then my plan was to do a real World History in high school in another go-round.

 

Hm. I don't know if my musings are particularly helpful to your original question! I love the idea of studying Western Civ as a story that doesn't get sidetracked by "meanwhile, halfway around the world...", but I also couldn't imagine just skipping the rest of the world (hence my idea to study those areas separately).

[EKS]

Here is my plan for high school history (keep in mind that my son won't be in high school for another 1.5 years). We are going to use a Western Civilization text as our spine (adding an American history text when appropriate). I intend to do separate studies of African, Asian, and Latin American history, using a text that is specific to each one as well as, hopefully, some representative literature from each area. I find the narrative of world history to be disjointed and would rather do things separately, as I think when the narrative is coherent, it is more likely to be remembered.

[Anna]

Both of my girls are in college now where we've seen World History and World Lit taught from time to time. We opted to expose our kids to World History/Lit while they were still in high school and under our covering.

[Karenciavo]

But, then TOG has been so overwhelming to so many people, and it seems to pretty much try to cover all of World History. Maybe that contributes to its overwhelming-ness??

 

I don't think that is what overwhelms people, TOG leans heavy to the West, although cultures are briefly studied as they cross paths with the West. I think what overwhelms people is that there are so many components of TOG and so much information in each one.

[SusanAR]

My ds studied SWB's HOAW this past semester and will begin Western Civ next week beginning in chapter 8 (which is where HOAW ends).

 

SusanAR

[MotherLode]

Oh yes...what's a TOG? Tayana Owner's Group? Tapestry of Grace?

 

I get SWB (Susan Wise Bauer) HOAW (History of the Ancient World), but TOG?

[LibrarianMom]

I think this is the last hurdle in my quest to finally make a decision about 9th grade. (I think!)

 

I *think* I'd really like to study as many other worldviews (Hindu, Buddha, Taoism) as possible in high school, reasoning this is the last chance I'll get to discuss these things with ds.

 

But, then I thought maybe SWB was trying to limit the seemingly infinite "possibilities" by sticking to West Civ.

 

Rhonda

 

Hi Rhonda,

 

I think it's not so much a question of western civilization vs. world history as how to incorporate worldview and non-western religion without going crazy. I can see doing this in several different ways. One would be to do a pretty basic multi-year western civilization route which is going to include philosophy and worldview information. This will most likely skip non-western religions until you get to the last couple of centuries and can incorporate those into the flow of western civilization. You could also do the same thing with world history. A third and equally legitimate option is to do worldviews/religion as a separate class along side your other choice where you focus on what does this religion/view point teach and believe, how is it practiced in various places, how do they view Christians both historically and currently, etc.

 

I would highly recommend Dr. Jim Sire's works especially The Universe Next Door. It has been revised multiple times and is wonderful. He uses a series of questions such as what do they believe about death and the afterlife, what do they believe about a supreme being, etc. These questions can then be used to explore a variety of cultures that may not fit a carefully defined box.

[Kareni]

Oh yes...what's a TOG? Tayana Owner's Group? Tapestry of Grace?

 

 

I believe TOG is indeed Tapestry of Grace.

 

If you look in the sticky at the top of the board, you'll find a link to many of the common homeschooling abbreviations.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[MotherLode]

I'd like to respectfully disagree here. I absolutely agree that you should study your own culture/religion in depth.

Okay.

 

Two things, somewhat related:

BUT it's also important to recognize that other cultures have something valuable to contribute to the world, AND that our own religion/culture has and does make mistakes.

NP that other cultures have something to contribute, and NP that "our own religion/culture has and does make mistakes."

 

Do we (the US) have only one religion? Only one culture? In a broad sense, our political/economic establishment is identifiable as "one," although an argument between a democracy and a republic often appears.

 

I've lived in many parts of the country, and there are many contrasts between them. And we certainly don't have one religion. Technically, we have no religion.

 

It had to be that way during the days of writing the constitution. You had 13 colonies, each with their own view/understanding/practice of God, and different from the other 12. In order to cut through the discussion and move to presenting a signed document and united front (enabling them to borrow money from France so they could revolt against England) they signed our founding documents without Christ as the head of the country, or even defining what is meant by the word 'god' in any document it appears.

 

Then there is the Treaty with Barbary Tripoli, (1796-97), signed with the Muslims. If we had been a Christian nation, they would not have signed any agreement. Article 11 of the Treaty begins: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." and this was approved by the US Congress without incident.

 

So what "'our own' religion/culture" are you referring to?

 

We are human and sinful even though we worship the true God.

 

Yeppers. Doesn't appear to have taken long for free will to raise its ugly opportunity and seduce Adam and Eve to break the first covenant with God. There were many ramifications, the best being the second covenant...salvation changing from one of works (do this (obey) and you shall live) to one of grace (believe and you shall live).

 

I believe in giving children a rock solid grounding in my faith, and I do so. But we also study other religions and cultures. For example, when we studied Islam, we did so from a book written from a Muslim. My ds (who was in 5th grade at the time) recognized quite quickly that the book was written from a Muslim perspective. That he could detect the slant in the material tells me that he knows his own faith well. To only expose my children to those who think just like me is to deny them the opportunity to evaluate other viewpoints while I am still there to guide them. They WILL be exposed to those viewpoints in college and afterwards as they interact with co-workers, so it's my job to prepare them now. Besides, I must admit, I really enjoy learning about other cultures and religions, and want to share that joy with my dc.

 

I think we are in agreement, it is just a matter of degrees...how far do you examine the other religions? With any examination (deep or not), bring it full circle and ground it back to your faith.

 

Remember the commands God gave you to write His Truths on the hearts and minds of your children, as well as what to do about other gods.

 

Have a great Lord's Day!

 

ML

[MotherLode]

Kareni, I can't get it to quote you!

 

I did look at the sticky, and it was just a bunch of links!

 

ML

[Kareni]

If you look in the sticky at the top of the board, you'll find a link to many of the common homeschooling abbreviations.

 

 

I did look at the sticky, and it was just a bunch of links!

 

 

 

One of the last links within the sticky, this one, takes you to a site with Home School Abbreviations. It has TOG mentioned along with many others.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[SheWhoWaits]

Do we (the US) have only one religion? Only one culture? In a broad sense, our political/economic establishment is identifiable as "one," although an argument between a democracy and a republic often appears.

 

 

 

So what "'our own' religion/culture" are you referring to?

 

 

ML

 

I was referring to whatever religion or culture the family in question belongs to. In my case, Protestant Christianity.