Remediating handwriting

[bookbard]

Ideas please. I have used handwriting textbooks but it isn't generalising to ordinary writing. He's in year 6, going to high school next year (Jan in Australia) and his handwriting looks babyish. I have very low standards, but legible and not babyish is important. 

[Rosie_0801]

How's his palmar reflex?

[popmom]

Is occupational therapy an option? It ((might help)). My dd had very, very babyish handwriting for a long time. Overly large print, spacing between letters and words was like a preschooler. No…it was possibly worse than a 4 year old. It was so bad. In OT they taught her cursive, but it didn’t stick. Maybe it did help in a way. She was 12 in OT.
 

I will say that there was a change around 14 years of age maybe?? And she improved. Now she writes smaller than average print. I wish I knew how this happened. I would’ve never predicted it. It was a total flip flop. It’s not pretty, but it’s legible, and much more efficient. 
 

 I’m wondering if using narrow (college) ruled paper might help. As opposed to the wider ruled paper used in the earlier grades. I’m sort of thinking that might have been what helped dd make the shift to much smaller print. 

Edited February 13 by popmom

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

 I’m wondering if using narrow (college) ruled paper might help. As opposed to the wider ruled paper used in the earlier grades. I’m sort of thinking that might have been what helped dd make the shift to much smaller print. 

Thanks, good idea. 

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

How's his palmar reflex?

No idea. But really his handwriting story is the same as mine. I used to get hassled all the time too. Low tone, I think, which makes it hard to persist with anything muscle related. Both of us terrible with anything sport related. 

 

1 hour ago, popmom said:

I will say that there was a change around 14 years of age maybe?? And she improved. Now she writes smaller than average print. I wish I knew how this happened. I would’ve never predicted it. It was a total flip flop. It’s not pretty, but it’s legible, and much more efficient. 

Interesting, I do think a lot of it is developmental. He's down the bottom of the graph for a lot of stuff - short stature, teeth way delayed, overall growth is slower. Very similar to a lot of people in my family - small and uncoordinated, but very clever with words and language. It makes it hard for me to really push him, because I identify with him so much! I do wonder if a bit of peer pressure once he actually goes to school might make a difference. 

Regarding OTs, I did enquire with one, but really she couldn't offer anything unique and she admitted it. There may be a brilliant one out there but they've all got year-long waiting lists, and I'm not really interested in paying hundreds of dollars to be given generic advice about letter formation and pencil grip. 

[popmom]

Does he type/keyboard well? My dd is really good at typing. And in college it’s really much more typing than handwriting. I mean…I know that hand written notes are best for learning and retaining info, but there are work arounds. Just thinking about the long game. 🙂 

I really do understand your concern. He is very fortunate that you have struggled similarly. You can empathize. I was a mess about it at first because I have that perfect school teacher handwriting. 🫠

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

No idea. But really his handwriting story is the same as mine. I used to get hassled all the time too. Low tone, I think, which makes it hard to persist with anything muscle related. Both of us terrible with anything sport related. 

Retained palmar is easy to test for. Have him open his hands and stroke them with a paintbrush or something several times. If his fingers curl up more or less immediately, that's a retained palmar. I was taught that it is considered integrated when it can be tolerated with no more than mild annoyance twenty times. (Others might have more up to date information than I do.)

[bookbard]

7 hours ago, popmom said:

Does he type/keyboard well? My dd is really good at typing. And in college it’s really much more typing than handwriting. I mean…I know that hand written notes are best for learning and retaining info, but there are work arounds. Just thinking about the long game. 🙂 

 

Yes, he's pretty good at typing and I agree long term that's more important, but he'll need to handwrite for school. 

 

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Retained palmar is easy to test for. Have him open his hands and stroke them with a paintbrush or something several times. If his fingers curl up more or less immediately, that's a retained palmar. I was taught that it is considered integrated when it can be tolerated with no more than mild annoyance twenty times. (Others might have more up to date information than I do.)

I am a sceptic when it comes to retained reflexes - having worked for years in the field of special needs, it brings back memories of a lot of scam courses for families which were pricy but never did much (Doman and Delacato in the 90s, then braingym, then there was another one - they show up, take money, and then crash a few years later). 

. Retained primitive reflexes: are they real? | Skills for Action 

Occam's Donkey: Mind Myth 9: Primitive reflexes, a new old fad (occamsdonkey.blogspot.com)

[quietgarden]

I have two older children who had awful handwriting. They went to a very traditional elementary school that gave them a lot of practice with it but I could always pick my child's paper out of dozens on the bulletin board from twenty feet away 🙂

Like @popmom, my daughter got better around age 14 or 15 but had to start writing small. She now has really lovely, but very tiny handwriting. 

I don't think it was anything an OT could have done anything with because she has always been a phenomenal artist in all mediums (pen and ink, pencil, pastel, watercolor, oils, you name it). So she obviously had great grip and total control but handwriting didn't click.

My older son still has terrible handwriting but besides his AP tests, where he miraculously got 5s despite his awful handwriting, he hasn't really needed it I suppose.

But I'm with you on the importance handwriting for these younger generations - I suspect with AI and ChatGPT they may start using more handwriting, not less, when it comes to testing and essays.

Edited February 13 by quietgarden
typo

[Lori D.]

NOT a sales person for them AT ALL 🤣 , but, Callirobics was helpful for DS#2 who struggled with the act of handwriting and with mild dyslexia. His letters wandered all over and were irregular in size, much like a young child's who was just starting to learn to do handwriting.

We ran across the program when DS#2 was around 14/15yo, and did it for 3-5 minutes each morning. All 3 of us (myself and DS#1, as well as DS#2) did it, and not only helped DS#2's handwriting, it really improved both DS#1 (sloppy handwriting) and MY (average) handwriting.

The idea is to practice the line shapes and motions used in manuscript and cursive handwriting, being careful and intentional about how the shapes hit the lines or are shaped in the spaces between the lines on the paper. You do it for the length of the piece of music (3-5 minutes), and the music has a regular rhythmic beat that helps you to stay focused -- like a more musical version of metronome work.

Edited February 13 by Lori D.

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

I am a sceptic when it comes to retained reflexes - having worked for years in the field of special needs, it brings back memories of a lot of scam courses for families which were pricy but never did much (Doman and Delacato in the 90s, then braingym, then there was another one - they show up, take money, and then crash a few years later). 

. Retained primitive reflexes: are they real? | Skills for Action 

Occam's Donkey: Mind Myth 9: Primitive reflexes, a new old fad (occamsdonkey.blogspot.com)

Goodness, I wasn't suggesting you pay for any of that crap. I certainly didn't. The only money I spent on it was a book by Sally Goddard Blythe who has been studying it for about forty years.

I had to work on reintegrating my Moro after a period of stress last year. It only took a couple of days and didn't cost me anything.

[bookbard]

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

NOT a sales person for them AT ALL 🤣 , but, Callirobics was helpful for DS#2 who struggled with the act of handwriting and with mild dyslexia. His letters wandered all over and were irregular in size, much like a young child's who was just starting to learn to do handwriting.

thanks, I will take a look today at this!

 

22 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Goodness, I wasn't suggesting you pay for any of that crap.

Oh, that's not what I meant. I mean I've looked at a lot of stuff in the field and so much of it is 'remediate this thing and something different will improve'. And there's no evidence that the something different does improve. Anyway, not here to argue about retained reflexes and their effect, but it's not something that I feel is evidence-based. I did look up a massive meta-analysis of all handwriting interventions and the only thing that does seem to work is the daily slog . . . consistency is my greatest challenge. 

[Ausmumof3]

How are his formations? 
 

A lot of boys switch later than girls to a more adult looking writing. My oldest DS was one.

Some of my tutor kids can write really neatly on a whiteboard but struggle on paper.

[Ausmumof3]

I also like to narrate the process as we practice. Start at the top, drop to the line and touch up and over and all the way down to the line. That sort of thing seems to help keep them conscious of what they’re meant to be doing. We also do - write a line of your best letter d. then have them circle the three they think are best out of them all.

Like spelling practice and punctuation, it doesn’t translate to better writing during other activities immediately but it does seem to improve eventually. I have one who hasn’t made a lot of ground because he rushes awfully.

I also find using a mechanical/technical pencil helps some of my kids with getting the right pressure and keeping their pencils sharp.

 

I was a messy handwriting kid and I always hated my handwriting teacher because in my brain I knew how to write and I thought it was a total waste of time. 

[bookbard]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I was a messy handwriting kid and I always hated my handwriting teacher because in my brain I knew how to write and I thought it was a total waste of time. 

Yeah me too - I was always like, I'll never make MY kid worry about their handwriting! hahaha . . .

[Rosie_0801]

My kid couldn't learn to write at all until I taught her to join her letters, but I guess you've tried that? We used Spencerian because I figured it was easier to simplify pretty than remediate ugly, and she was doing well despite the dysgraphia until Vic Cursive entered her life.

Does his handwriting look better if he writes in all caps? 

[bookbard]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

My kid couldn't learn to write at all until I taught her to join her letters, but I guess you've tried that? We used Spencerian because I figured it was easier to simplify pretty than remediate ugly, and she was doing well despite the dysgraphia until Vic Cursive entered her life.

Does his handwriting look better if he writes in all caps? 

He can write, and it's legible - it's just babyish (large and poorly formed). I can't think of a circumstance where I'd advise all caps, except perhaps an adult learner - it really does slow you down, and it doesn't look good. I've seen a few tradies write that way, but not for anything more extended than an address or a label. My boy can write stories and essays, but I feel like his babyish style takes away from what he writes. I think I will definitely focus on decreasing size and remediating the worst letters (generally the ones with curves).