This Charlotte Mason thing.

[Ting Tang]

I bought the three older kids many of the same books for science, history, literature, and spelling (to use for dictation— it’s a vintage book). I bought very little curriculum except grammar, foreign language,  math, and penmanship. I am trying narration—oral and written for writing. Without concrete curriculum, I feel a bit lost and uncertain if I did the right thing. Nothing is planned or mapped out. But we really like the living books so much, well, except for the bickering that occurs by the togetherness. I still spent a fortune getting these books printed as many companies that sell living books are only printed upon ordering. But part of me longs for a curriculum manual and premade things to ensure I’m doing what I should for them. I just second guess everything. Aside from math, even if I fail with writing and narration, how terrible would it be if our success was just having read good books this year? I feel like maybe I should’ve done the curriculum thing, but it’s too late cost-wise. I might buy a classical writing program? Someone hold my hand, lol. Just feeling unsure. 

[Clarita]

Did you read Know and Tell by Karen Glass? That book outlines how narration leads to formal composition. This passage might help.

[Dianthus]

We are doing sonlight american history 1 for 6th and 3rd grade this year. Lots of lovely books but nicely mapped. I bought it on ebay. Really like new but $160 vs the $550 from SL.

Writing With Ease is excellent with guided narration. And it's cheap, under $20.

[Dianthus]

I think you're doing the curriculum bounce about, trying new things. I think it's normal to take some time finding what works. Don't get too stressed about it. It took me awhile to find what worked for us.

Actually, when I reread your post, you say you bought little concrete curriculum, but you bought the ones you needed. History and science can just be living books for a year so don't sweat it. We are doing curriculum for both and it's making my life a bit easier to have the question listed to ask etc, but you'll be OK. I remember your kids are a bit younger than mine. I'm sure what you're doing is fine. Look at WWE for your younger kids.

And buying the books is for your library, not consumable curriculum, so don't think of it as wasted money. And a year of loving good books is not a wasted year either.

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I bought the three older kids many of the same books for science, history, literature, and spelling (to use for dictation— it’s a vintage book). I bought very little curriculum except grammar, foreign language,  math, and penmanship. I am trying narration—oral and written for writing. Without concrete curriculum, I feel a bit lost and uncertain if I did the right thing. Nothing is planned or mapped out. But we really like the living books so much, well, except for the bickering that occurs by the togetherness. I still spent a fortune getting these books printed as many companies that sell living books are only printed upon ordering. But part of me longs for a curriculum manual and premade things to ensure I’m doing what I should for them. I just second guess everything. Aside from math, even if I fail with writing and narration, how terrible would it be if our success was just having read good books this year? I feel like maybe I should’ve done the curriculum thing, but it’s too late cost-wise. I might buy a classical writing program? Someone hold my hand, lol. Just feeling unsure. 

Not terrible at all. 

Is the learning somehow better if the cover of the book says "textbook" and it comes with a pamphlet saying "Read Chapter 1. Then read chapter 2. Then read chapter 3"? 

Is there some part of you that thinks the information in living books is not as valid as the information in "curriculum"? 

Does learning only happen or count if there is an end of chapter test?

I'm being a bit silly, of course. 

I don't remember how old your kids are, but I think they are still fairly young? I think it's pretty hard to mess up learning in the early years, unless you are actively ignoring your kids or shutting down their requests to learn things. 

I'm not anti-curriculum or textbook, (we're actually doing an all-textbook year for 9th, and it's so much easier on me that I don't even know what to do with myself!). I think sometimes we put more faith in the trappings of "learning" rather than the actual, you know, learning. Form over function, that sort of thing. 

[Melanie32]

Simply Charlotte Mason sells something that walks you through the process of planning a CM curriculum. Here’s a link:

https://simplycharlottemason.com/store/planning-your-charlotte-mason-education/

I found it helpful when I was homeschooling. It helped me to feel more structured and to pull together a plan of my own using the books and curricula that I wanted to use. 

[Ting Tang]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

Did you read Know and Tell by Karen Glass? That book outlines how narration leads to formal composition. This passage might help.

Yes! I have this and the SCM handbook for language arts. I’m still feeling lost, and of course, overwhelmed trying to tend to four kids and the house. 

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Not terrible at all. 

Is the learning somehow better if the cover of the book says "textbook" and it comes with a pamphlet saying "Read Chapter 1. Then read chapter 2. Then read chapter 3"? 

Is there some part of you that thinks the information in living books is not as valid as the information in "curriculum"? 

Does learning only happen or count if there is an end of chapter test?

I'm being a bit silly, of course. 

I don't remember how old your kids are, but I think they are still fairly young? I think it's pretty hard to mess up learning in the early years, unless you are actively ignoring your kids or shutting down their requests to learn things. 

I'm not anti-curriculum or textbook, (we're actually doing an all-textbook year for 9th, and it's so much easier on me that I don't even know what to do with myself!). I think sometimes we put more faith in the trappings of "learning" rather than the actual, you know, learning. Form over function, that sort of thing. 

My oldest is in 6th, then 5th, 3rd, and 1st. I am a bit worried about writing for the older two. We barely did any last year, and I know how important it is. I thought narrations might be easier for my older one, who is reluctant to sit and write.  He is excellent otherwise with the material. I know, though, how important writing is. 

[Ting Tang]

45 minutes ago, Melanie32 said:

Simply Charlotte Mason sells something that walks you through the process of planning a CM curriculum. Here’s a link:

https://simplycharlottemason.com/store/planning-your-charlotte-mason-education/

I found it helpful when I was homeschooling. It helped me to feel more structured and to pull together a plan of my own using the books and curricula that I wanted to use. 

I did not buy this one but had looked at other CM resources like this. I thought the language arts handbook would help, but maybe I have too many “extras?” I keep trying to tell myself reading good books was the goal, and I do like them— I’m just feeling like we should be doing more with it, maybe? 

[HomeAgain]

13 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I did not buy this one but had looked at other CM resources like this. I thought the language arts handbook would help, but maybe I have too many “extras?” I keep trying to tell myself reading good books was the goal, and I do like them— I’m just feeling like we should be doing more with it, maybe? 

A few thoughts:
CM did have a curriculum for her schools.  It was a thing.  I had a very CM school near my old home and we took a 3 hour tour of it where the director gave explanations of everything they did and why, and which written curricula they used to enhance the lessons.

 

In our house...ds started out with English Lessons Through Literature, a hybrid CM/Classical approach.  The year we stopped, he requested the same format for his language arts.  So I made it for him.  It wasn't just about reading good books, it was taking them as an inspiration for more written work:

-coming across a particularly descriptive passage, mulling it over, and using it for copywork.  Then using it as a springboard for his own descriptive passage.

-pulling out a few sentences to diagram, really getting to the meat of what the author was saying and paying attention to how the sentence was formatted.

-Using a sentence to jump off of: writing first an outline of details to go with that topic sentence, then writing a paragraph of his own work.

-Narrating short stories (myths, legends, fables, folk tales) once or twice a week.

And that moved beyond the language arts into other subjects:

-creating living notebooks.  I bought spiral bound sketch books to add things to: tracings, envelopes of small things, diagrams..

[Melanie32]

57 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I did not buy this one but had looked at other CM resources like this. I thought the language arts handbook would help, but maybe I have too many “extras?” I keep trying to tell myself reading good books was the goal, and I do like them— I’m just feeling like we should be doing more with it, maybe? 

Yes, as other posters have said, you do a lot more with the books than just read them. You’re practicing age appropriate copywork and/or dictation from them and doing oral or written narrations from them. This encompasses your language arts program. Writing it down and scheduling it out helps one to see how it really is a curriculum and has plenty of structure. It just feels more natural and gentle because it is! 
 

Studied dictation was the only thing that helped my daughter to conquer her struggles with spelling and oral and written narrations made both of my children excellent  writers and speakers! Though they seem easier, they actually require a lot of critical thinking skills and I have found them to be so much more effective than other methods.

[Heartstrings]

We use note booking and lap books with our living books. 

[Ting Tang]

5 hours ago, Melanie32 said:

Yes, as other posters have said, you do a lot more with the books than just read them. You’re practicing age appropriate copywork and/or dictation from them and doing oral or written narrations from them. This encompasses your language arts program. Writing it down and scheduling it out helps one to see how it really is a curriculum and has plenty of structure. It just feels more natural and gentle because it is! 
 

Studied dictation was the only thing that helped my daughter to conquer her struggles with spelling and oral and written narrations made both of my children excellent  writers and speakers! Though they seem easier, they actually require a lot of critical thinking skills and I have found them to be so much more effective than other methods.

I think I need to get better organized. This was my worry, which is why I bought the extra books for spelling and grammar.  I do think the spelling is CM-ish.  The grammar not so much, though I like that it includes punctuation.

 

Now a big hurdle is the fighting.  I just had to give up for the day.  They are always together, except for when they do their activities.  But we live in a small home, and maybe it is just too much for them.  

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

We use note booking and lap books with our living books. 

Do you have guidance with notebooking?  I have seen notebooks for sale to use with books.  If I took time, I am sure I could figure it out.  Sometimes things are easier said than done----they fight so much, it is hard to feel enthusiastic anymore!  And whether or not they are combined, they are always within close proximity.  I feel like this is the downside of homeschooling for our family.  

[Shoeless]

11 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My oldest is in 6th, then 5th, 3rd, and 1st. I am a bit worried about writing for the older two. We barely did any last year, and I know how important it is. I thought narrations might be easier for my older one, who is reluctant to sit and write.  He is excellent otherwise with the material. I know, though, how important writing is. 

Do you mean handwriting or composition? 

Writing skills are important, yes, but I think you're fine. You have another 6-7 years to build composition skills. Some kids are busting at the seams to get their thoughts on paper. Others could not care less. 

What are your expectations for composition at this age? What kind of work do you think they should be doing? 

[Nichola]

Am I remembering correctly that you used to use Memoria Press before switching to CM? MP has so many workbooks and checklists…I wonder if that’s part of the reason that what you’re doing now doesn’t feel like “enough.” With narration, you don’t have that “proof” in a workbook that your kids did something today, so it can feel like you aren’t accomplishing as much. Which isn’t true! But it can feel that way at first. I saw that someone already mentioned Know and Tell by Karen Glass. That’s a great resource.

 

Edited April 24 by Nichola

[Dianthus]

Agree with above about huge change in approach from MP. 

[Ting Tang]

15 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Do you mean handwriting or composition? 

Writing skills are important, yes, but I think you're fine. You have another 6-7 years to build composition skills. Some kids are busting at the seams to get their thoughts on paper. Others could not care less. 

What are your expectations for composition at this age? What kind of work do you think they should be doing? 

Composition.  I think both should be able to write detailed paragraphs by this age.  They do alright with sentences.  I was hoping narration would help develop this?  And I was hoping to keep it simple. My oldest is excellent with oral narration, even though I am not quite comfortable conducting it--he is able to retell what he read in great detail.  So with that being said, I am not too worried.  But sometimes I think about sending him to a regular school, and I don't want our family to be judged.  I remember writing reports by 5th and 6th grade.

[Ting Tang]

14 hours ago, Nichola said:

Am I remembering correctly that you used to use Memoria Press before switching to CM? MP has so many workbooks and checklists…I wonder if that’s part of the reason that what you’re doing now doesn’t feel like “enough.” With narration, you don’t have that “proof” in a workbook that your kids did something today, so it can feel like you aren’t accomplishing as much. Which isn’t true! But it can feel that way at first. I saw that someone already mentioned Know and Tell by Karen Glass. It is an excellent resource.

Your description of your homeschool sounds a lot like mine. We do history, science, geography, artist/composer studies, etc. together, and then split apart for individual work in skill subjects. Our group time is mostly reading good books together. I also give my oldest (4th grade) some reading to do on his own for literature, history, and science. He does one written narration a week, and we do oral narrations for everything else. I don’t follow a curriculum guide, but I do have a few websites I look at to help me choose books. A couple of years ago I spent a lot of time studying the way AO and Mater Amabilis schedule their subjects, and now I create my own schedules based on those principles. It’s very freeing to make my own choices, but it is more work than following someone else’s curriculum.

Yes, we used mostly MP two years ago and some last year!  But I've never been on my own and without a curriculum.  I feel like I read so much on various CM sites and in books, and now that it is time to implement it, I am shaky and uncomfortable, lol.  But maybe I just need to give ourselves some time?  I also hope they can get along better!  I wanted to really streamline things this year because doing four separate curriculum plans for every subject is just too much.  And we really are enjoying the book choices.  So maybe we are accomplishing more than we think! It is still very early on.  

[Heartstrings]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:53 PM, Ting Tang said:

Do you have guidance with notebooking?  I have seen notebooks for sale to use with books.  If I took time, I am sure I could figure it out.  Sometimes things are easier said than done----they fight so much, it is hard to feel enthusiastic anymore!  And whether or not they are combined, they are always within close proximity.  I feel like this is the downside of homeschooling for our family.  

I just printed basic blank ones and bound them, mine have a picture box and a few lines for writing.  My 2nd grader draws a picture about we read then I write down her narration, modeling good sentence structure.  Older kids could write down a sentence or two, or a paragraph them selves.   I got a lot of ideas from the Notebooking Fairy.  She has an ebook.  
 

https://notebookingfairy.com

Edited September 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

The oldest one is at a decent age for IEW.  It’s really helpful for reluctant writers.   

[klmama]

On 9/1/2023 at 6:41 AM, Ting Tang said:

I’m still feeling lost, and of course, overwhelmed trying to tend to four kids and the house. 

In our family, this is where read-alouds played a helpful role.  I would read aloud to the dc during their lunch (after I ate quickly), and I'd continue reading while they cleaned up the kitchen afterward.  As long as they kept finding things to clean, I'd keep reading, LOL!  They'd sweep the floor, clear the dishes, load the dishwasher, wipe down counters, put away leftovers, take out trash, etc.  I also read aloud to them while they cleaned their rooms, folded and put away laundry, etc.  To keep everyone moving the in morning, each had a personalized task list in a sleeve protector with a dry erase marker to mark off completed items: make bed, family Bible time, eat breakfast, dishes in dishwasher, get dressed, wash face, brush teeth, brush hair, take a walk, etc.  At some point I added their assigned lunch tasks to it, as well as other things they needed to do each day.  As I said, each child had his own list, and when the youngest couldn't read yet, the list was all hand-drawn pictures.  I had a list, too, and we were extremely well organized; honestly, I've probably never been so organized in my life, either before or since we stopped using the dry erase task lists.  I have no idea why we stopped; I should probably go back to that, just for myself....  Anyway, I hope something here helps!

[Ting Tang]

6 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

The oldest one is at a decent age for IEW.  It’s really helpful for reluctant writers.   

I've looked at this, lol.  I think I have looked at it all, ha ha!  I was talking to my SIL today.  She is a school teacher, but my nephew is in 6th grade.  He's very bright, and they are in a very good school district.  She was describing his curriculum this year, and I felt pretty bad.  How she described it just felt like a lot more, and of course, he has straight A+ grades so far.  I just hope our homeschool has not created the reluctancy from my son.  I will also check out the Notebook Fairy.  Thank you!

[Ting Tang]

3 minutes ago, klmama said:

In our family, this is where read-alouds played a helpful role.  I would read aloud to the dc during their lunch (after I ate quickly), and I'd continue reading while they cleaned up the kitchen afterward.  As long as they kept finding things to clean, I'd keep reading, LOL!  They'd sweep the floor, clear the dishes, load the dishwasher, wipe down counters, put away leftovers, take out trash, etc.  I also read aloud to them while they cleaned their rooms, folded and put away laundry, etc.  To keep everyone moving the in morning, each had a personalized task list in a sleeve protector with a dry erase marker to mark off completed items: make bed, family Bible time, eat breakfast, dishes in dishwasher, get dressed, wash face, brush teeth, brush hair, take a walk, etc.  At some point I added their assigned lunch tasks to it, as well as other things they needed to do each day.  As I said, each child had his own list, and when the youngest couldn't read yet, the list was all hand-drawn pictures.  I had a list, too, and we were extremely well organized; honestly, I've probably never been so organized in my life, either before or since we stopped using the dry erase task lists.  I have no idea why we stopped; I should probably go back to that, just for myself....  Anyway, I hope something here helps!

Actually, two years ago when we did MP, I found a dry erase sleeve with their subjects very helpful.  I was thinking we should go back to it, too!  LOL  But I absolutely love your idea of reading aloud while they are helping with chores.  Even though I feel like we aren't doing enough, I still feel like our house looks as if a library exploded in the kitchen.  I could sure use help with the basics.  Thank you!

[Dianthus]

I will sometimes do the read aloud while they fold their laundry and towels.

[8filltheheart]

I didn't read the replies, so others probably already said this.  Reading and discussing provides a solid educational foundation.  That is the approach I have taken with all 8 of my kids over the past 3 decades.  My kids have gone on to be honors college students have graduated with honors.

All the way through high school graduation my kids never touch a history textbook.  We read all sorts of books on a wide variety of topics.  They never complete a single worksheet or take history test.  They read, take Cornell Notes (in 7th grade up), discuss, and write a history paper every few weeks. 

Science is a no textbook approach until high school level science.