Please help me think through math for dd14 (cross-posted)

[jkl]

My 14 year old has a variety of mental health and learning struggles.  She has a collection of disabilities under the non-verbal learning disorder label.  She has dyscalculia.  She has severe OCD.  Many of her compulsions revolve around numbers.  She is in intensive therapy for her OCD and making progress slowly but steadily and we are thrilled.  This is going to be a long road for her.  I have already decided that she will do another year of middle school next year, since we have been able to do very little school with her so far this year.  She is a talented writer and strong in all areas of language arts.  I am trying to figure out what to do with her for math.  She knows her facts for all 4 basic operations.  She has been at this level for over a year.  I think she is ready for us to begin formal math instruction again with her, but I am unsure where to start.  I have MUS Gamma and Delta, and it looks like she would place half-way through in both levels.  I don't love MUS for her, and I can't put my finger on why, but so far this seems to be the best option.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  i feel like she needs a combination of hands on (though she gets bogged down by the MUS rods) , lots and lots of supervised practice, and maybe informal games.  Thanks for any input anyone may have!!!  I will cross post this on the learning challenges board  as well.

[wendyroo]

4 minutes ago, jkl said:

My 14 year old has a variety of mental health and learning struggles.  She has a collection of disabilities under the non-verbal learning disorder label.  She has dyscalculia.  She has severe OCD.  Many of her compulsions revolve around numbers.  She is in intensive therapy for her OCD and making progress slowly but steadily and we are thrilled.  This is going to be a long road for her.  I have already decided that she will do another year of middle school next year, since we have been able to do very little school with her so far this year.  She is a talented writer and strong in all areas of language arts.  I am trying to figure out what to do with her for math.  She knows her facts for all 4 basic operations.  She has been at this level for over a year.  I think she is ready for us to begin formal math instruction again with her, but I am unsure where to start.  I have MUS Gamma and Delta, and it looks like she would place half-way through in both levels.  I don't love MUS for her, and I can't put my finger on why, but so far this seems to be the best option.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  i feel like she needs a combination of hands on (though she gets bogged down by the MUS rods) , lots and lots of supervised practice, and maybe informal games.  Thanks for any input anyone may have!!!  I will cross post this on the learning challenges board  as well.

What are your goals for her?

It sounds like she doesn't know multi-digit multiplication or long division. Let me tell you, in my son's public school, self-contained, gift 6th grade classroom they have long since thrown in the towel and just let the kids use calculators for everything. My experience tutoring in this district shows that they briefly teach grid multiplication and the long division algorithm...and then promptly give up and rely on calculators.

I'm not saying that is the right answer for your daughter, but in an age where she will almost always carry a calculator in her pocket, there would be no shame in deciding to focus on more practical skills.

Does she truly understand the concepts of place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division? How is she at word problems? What about algebraic thinking? How is she with rudimentary fractions and decimals? Can she add money? Can she read a ruler?

Those are some of the questions I would be considering when choosing a curriculum.

[jkl]

28 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Does she truly understand the concepts of place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division? How is she at word problems? What about algebraic thinking? How is she with rudimentary fractions and decimals? Can she add money? Can she read a ruler?

Those are some of the questions I would be considering when choosing a curriculum.

Thanks so much for the input!  I think she mostly understands the concepts of place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.  Word problems are extremely difficult for her.  She has very little understanding of fractions and none of decimals beyond money.  She is pretty good at working with money but struggles with measurement.  I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much she struggles with in math.  Good to know about the calculators though!

[wendyroo]

19 minutes ago, jkl said:

Thanks so much for the input!  I think she mostly understands the concepts of place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.  Word problems are extremely difficult for her.  She has very little understanding of fractions and none of decimals beyond money.  She is pretty good at working with money but struggles with measurement.  I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much she struggles with in math.  Good to know about the calculators though!

I would be very tempted to focus on fractions. That would be MUS Epsilon, but if you question if MUS is for her, there are other good resources. Hands on Equations offers a Developing Fractions Sense product. Or there is Keys to Fractions...and if that worked well for her, there is also Keys to Measurement, Keys to Decimals, Keys to Percents, etc.

Along with that, I would want to work on word problems. One product I really like are Singapore Process Skills books. They explicitly teach problem solving tools. You could just choose the level that seems appropriate for her.

Another, very different, resource is Numberless Math Problems which might capitalize on her language strengths - there are no numbers, just math ideas to express verbally. The two downsides of the book in my opinion are 1) The problems are not arranged logically - the really hard ones and really easy ones are randomly mixed, so I had to put them in an order that made sense for my kids, and 2) There are no answers...which is good because it encourages discussion and collaboration rather than relying on the One Right Answer, but it does make the book more teacher intensive.

[Green Bean]

I replied on your cross posted thread.

[jkl]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I would be very tempted to focus on fractions. That would be MUS Epsilon, but if you question if MUS is for her, there are other good resources. Hands on Equations offers a Developing Fractions Sense product. Or there is Keys to Fractions...and if that worked well for her, there is also Keys to Measurement, Keys to Decimals, Keys to Percents, etc.

Along with that, I would want to work on word problems. One product I really like are Singapore Process Skills books. They explicitly teach problem solving tools. You could just choose the level that seems appropriate for her.

Another, very different, resource is Numberless Math Problems which might capitalize on her language strengths - there are no numbers, just math ideas to express verbally. The two downsides of the book in my opinion are 1) The problems are not arranged logically - the really hard ones and really easy ones are randomly mixed, so I had to put them in an order that made sense for my kids, and 2) There are no answers...which is good because it encourages discussion and collaboration rather than relying on the One Right Answer, but it does make the book more teacher intensive.

Thank you so much for the recommendations!  I like the idea of a focus on fractions and word problems.  I know Ronit Bird has a fraction resource that might work for her as well.

[PeterPan]

Consider a more global diagnosis like autism, dump computation, have realistic goals. Is she on meds for the mental health? 14 is wicked hard and this is your first time doing it, which means you're probably not giving yourself grace. The world will not end if you put math aside and do something else. You might think it will, but it won't. We did a book on mirrors/symmetry this past year that was cool. Anything hands on, word problem books/kits. Her brain is going through so much radical change that math may not be the most important thing, which you only sometimes realize in hindsight. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by PeterPan

[jkl]

Thanks.  She is on meds.  2 evals say no to Autism, though I still wonder...  We are back to doing Rod and Staff slowly and together for now.  It is going ok.  We will re-evaluate in a month.  🙂  The mental health stuff is our biggest obstacle and our biggest focus right now. 

[kbutton]

23 hours ago, jkl said:

Thanks.  She is on meds.  2 evals say no to Autism, though I still wonder...  We are back to doing Rod and Staff slowly and together for now.  It is going ok.  We will re-evaluate in a month.  🙂  The mental health stuff is our biggest obstacle and our biggest focus right now. 

Working on mental health is important!

I am looking at this again with fresh eyes since others chimed in more recently, and I have some thoughts that didn't occur to me before.

NVLD is not a diagnosis anymore. It doesn't mean that knowing the profile fits won't yield helpful ideas, but it's not a diagnosis. It's sometimes given in a way that excuses the evaluator from giving an ASD diagnosis--as in, they can say it's NVLD instead because it's a better fit or whatever, but if NVLD is off the table...what is their explanation? With NVLD, verbal stuff is a relative strength. That doesn't mean that there couldn't also be an underlying language issue--I don't know anyone with an NVLD profile that hasn't gone on to have a language diagnosis or overall difficulty with language (though it might be possible), and sometimes they get an ASD diagnosis later. I have two kids with sky-high language scores on IQ testing that both have narrow but deep language difficulties that didn't turn up until 13+ and required nuanced language testing from someone who works with autistic teens to ferret it out (one of my kids has ASD, and the other has hints of it, but he's missing some of the key features).

Language issues are easily missed. Also, some kinds of language issues can push someone over from maybe ASD to being definitive for it, depending on what is holding the evaluator back from giving the ASD diagnosis.
 

On 2/2/2023 at 12:26 PM, jkl said:

 i feel like she needs a combination of hands on (though she gets bogged down by the MUS rods) ,

I wonder if she needs something hands on that doesn't require non-verbal thinking/conceptualization...maybe something that's supportive of working memory but in a different way. 

On 2/2/2023 at 1:14 PM, jkl said:

Thanks so much for the input!  I think she mostly understands the concepts of place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.  Word problems are extremely difficult for her.  She has very little understanding of fractions and none of decimals beyond money.  She is pretty good at working with money but struggles with measurement.  I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much she struggles with in math.  Good to know about the calculators though!

This could be a language issue. Measurement could potentially tax her non-verbal skills and is requires a lot of fraction-adjacent thinking.

Does doing fractions on a number line (counting by 1/4, 1/2, etc.) help at all? It's visual, but it's more like "regular" counting and skip counting than some ways of handling fractions.

Anyway, I hope Rod and Staff is going well! 

[PeterPan]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:19 PM, jkl said:

evals say no to Autism, though I still wonder.

You wouldn't believe how often this comes up. I've known people who were told no, no, because they missed a cutoff by 1 point. Finally around those teen years the 3rd re-eval said yes. Some things just become obvious with time. 

If she's on meds and not getting answers, the two other pieces to look at are interoception (Kelly Mahler's work) and genetics. Genetics can get you some more things that are contributing to the mood instability. (methylation, vitamin D, B vitamins, zinc, mitochondrial issues, etc. etc.) Methyl levels are a big issue in our house. There's a gene NBPF3 you can read about that contributes to OCD by affecting how the body activates B6. The person ends up needing a specialized form (p5p) if they have that defect.

[Storygirl]

I missed the fact that your daughter has NVLD. My DS18 was diagnosed with NVLD at age 10 and didn't get an autism diagnosis until age 15. Now I would tend to say that he has ASD with the NVLD profile; however, no one usually knows anything about NVLD, so I leave it out, much of the time. If I am describing his learning issues to his teachers at school, I describe the specifics of his NVLD disability without bothering to name it.

That's all beside the point, but I wanted to mention it, because many times kids with NVLD fall on the autism spectrum, and sometimes it takes multiple evaluations to figure it out.

And also, because NVLD often has a component of math disability that is HARD. If you haven't done so yet, I would recommend that you search "NVLD and math" and read up about it online. DS's neuropsychologist told us at age 10 that many with NVLD have extreme trouble with high school math, and it was shocking to us, because DS was doing okay in math then. But everything that she told us turned out to be exactly true (except that she missed the ASD diagnosis). DS was able to get to a prealgebra level in math and then stalled there.

And also, DS's mental health journey has been super tough during his teen years.

So I am feeling very empathetic toward you and wanted you to know that you aren't alone.

I'd be happy to chat more about NVLD and math, if it would help you. But I recommend doing the internet reading, too.

[jkl]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:14 PM, kbutton said:

Working on mental health is important!

I am looking at this again with fresh eyes since others chimed in more recently, and I have some thoughts that didn't occur to me before.

NVLD is not a diagnosis anymore. It doesn't mean that knowing the profile fits won't yield helpful ideas, but it's not a diagnosis. It's sometimes given in a way that excuses the evaluator from giving an ASD diagnosis--as in, they can say it's NVLD instead because it's a better fit or whatever, but if NVLD is off the table...what is their explanation? With NVLD, verbal stuff is a relative strength. That doesn't mean that there couldn't also be an underlying language issue--I don't know anyone with an NVLD profile that hasn't gone on to have a language diagnosis or overall difficulty with language (though it might be possible), and sometimes they get an ASD diagnosis later. I have two kids with sky-high language scores on IQ testing that both have narrow but deep language difficulties that didn't turn up until 13+ and required nuanced language testing from someone who works with autistic teens to ferret it out (one of my kids has ASD, and the other has hints of it, but he's missing some of the key features).

Language issues are easily missed. Also, some kinds of language issues can push someone over from maybe ASD to being definitive for it, depending on what is holding the evaluator back from giving the ASD diagnosis.
 

I wonder if she needs something hands on that doesn't require non-verbal thinking/conceptualization...maybe something that's supportive of working memory but in a different way. 

This could be a language issue. Measurement could potentially tax her non-verbal skills and is requires a lot of fraction-adjacent thinking.

Does doing fractions on a number line (counting by 1/4, 1/2, etc.) help at all? It's visual, but it's more like "regular" counting and skip counting than some ways of handling fractions.

Anyway, I hope Rod and Staff is going well! 

You are right.  Her official diagnosis is not NVLD.  It is officially OCD, Disorder of Mathematics, Delay of Motor Function, and "other" (visual-spatial and fluid-reasoning deficits).  But in the final report and in our follow-up meeting, the evaluator used terms like non-verbal difficulties many times.  Thanks for your suggestions!

[jkl]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:12 PM, PeterPan said:

You wouldn't believe how often this comes up. I've known people who were told no, no, because they missed a cutoff by 1 point. Finally around those teen years the 3rd re-eval said yes. Some things just become obvious with time. 

If she's on meds and not getting answers, the two other pieces to look at are interoception (Kelly Mahler's work) and genetics. Genetics can get you some more things that are contributing to the mood instability. (methylation, vitamin D, B vitamins, zinc, mitochondrial issues, etc. etc.) Methyl levels are a big issue in our house. There's a gene NBPF3 you can read about that contributes to OCD by affecting how the body activates B6. The person ends up needing a specialized form (p5p) if they have that defect.

Thank you so much for this!  I am looking into all of it.

On 3/2/2023 at 12:14 AM, Storygirl said:

I missed the fact that your daughter has NVLD. My DS18 was diagnosed with NVLD at age 10 and didn't get an autism diagnosis until age 15. Now I would tend to say that he has ASD with the NVLD profile; however, no one usually knows anything about NVLD, so I leave it out, much of the time. If I am describing his learning issues to his teachers at school, I describe the specifics of his NVLD disability without bothering to name it.

That's all beside the point, but I wanted to mention it, because many times kids with NVLD fall on the autism spectrum, and sometimes it takes multiple evaluations to figure it out.

And also, because NVLD often has a component of math disability that is HARD. If you haven't done so yet, I would recommend that you search "NVLD and math" and read up about it online. DS's neuropsychologist told us at age 10 that many with NVLD have extreme trouble with high school math, and it was shocking to us, because DS was doing okay in math then. But everything that she told us turned out to be exactly true (except that she missed the ASD diagnosis). DS was able to get to a prealgebra level in math and then stalled there.

And also, DS's mental health journey has been super tough during his teen years.

So I am feeling very empathetic toward you and wanted you to know that you aren't alone.

I'd be happy to chat more about NVLD and math, if it would help you. But I recommend doing the internet reading, too.

Thank you.  I will read up some more and then maybe come back with questions 🙂

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, jkl said:

I will read up some more

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-communication-learning-style You might find this helpful. NVLD people do straddle that line where the system doesn't know what to do with them. I know some who've gone autism and others who didn't and should have. No matter what, the affect on pragmatics, perspective taking/social thinking, and language can be significant. They may also have issues with interoception (self-awareness, self advocacy). 

An autism diagnosis is about *support* and significance. Someone can have the issues and not have them rise to such a level of significance (repetitive behaviors, perspective taking deficits, etc.) that they are requiring support. However that doesn't mean we can't look at those areas of deficit and get them acknowledged and do intervention. The flip is also the case, that failing to catch them and intervene and assuming they aren't there can cause significant problems down the road as the difficulties become more apparent.

So whether or not a particular psych on a particular day calls it autism, you want to dig into all the same categories, get all the same testing, get all the same intervention for anything that turns out to have challenges. Your best ally for turning up those areas will be an SLP specializing in autism because in the ps it's typically the SLP who runs pragmatics, narrative language, etc. etc. Psychs don't necessarily do that detailed testing when they run their evals, so ironically the less expensive SLP evals can be much more useful and result in much more actionable information, where the $$$ psych eval was more a way to get funding and open doors.

[PeterPan]

Btw, did you say whether she has had OT evals? They may turn up startling things and could be an important piece of getting her more comfortable in her body. If she had an OT eval some time ago, might be time for a fresh one, especially with someone who works on interoception. 

[Mimi50]

I have dyscalculia and graduated from high school in 1991. Math is huge struggle for me. So last February I bought Learn Math Fast. Though it doesn’t have a lot of hands on things in the book. You certainly could add that if you wanted to. I have made a lot of progress the books are about $40 on Amazon. Maybe you could try that instead.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Mimi50