Latin or Roots Study? Modern language instead?

[Ting Tang]

FFL has just not been our friend from Memoria Press for 4th grade. I'm considering other programs, but if we didn't do Latin, can anyone recommend a good roots program?  I'm fairly sure I have seen one, and I know Rod & Staff includes in in junior high spelling. 

Do you think learning a modern language is "easier?"  I honestly don't remember my French classes being as detailed and intricate as my son's First Form Latin.  I think FFL is for a certain type of very serious elementary student, maybe not a 9-10 year old.  I'm not sure if we should drop it for the rest of the year.  We're going at 2/3 pace and not doing well with memorization, either of us.  

[Zoo Keeper]

Drop it.  🙂

Unless your son loves it *right now*. drop it.  

Unless it is something you are required to do in order to fulfill legal requirements for homeschooling in your area, drop it.

You can try a foreign language again in a year, or two, or three.  Or even wait until it counts for high school credit. 

Sometimes, one more thing is just that-- one  more  thing.... and its actual value at that time is really... not there. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Zoo Keeper

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

Drop it.  🙂

Unless your son loves it *right now*. drop it.  

Unless it is something you are required to do in order to fulfill legal requirements for homeschooling in your area, drop it.

You can try a foreign language again in a year, or two, or three.  Or even wait until it counts for high school credit. 

Sometimes, one more thing is just that-- one  more  thing.... and it's actual value at that time is really... not there. 

Thank you so much.  It's much easier for me to see the value right now for later, but it is harder for him.  It really has been one more thing.  😞  

[ScoutTN]

I’d drop foreign language for now. Major on the majors.

[Ting Tang]

8 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

I’d drop foreign language for now. Major on the majors.

It was one of those things that sounded wonderful last year until I actually implemented it.  We tried at the beginning, but it has just gotten harder and harder...to even find the will to do the bare minimum, lol.  I know the 4th graders at the Highlands Academy do it and it is designed for regular 5th grade homeschoolers, but I do not see that changing even next year for him.  

[ScoutTN]

2 minutes ago, KrisTom said:

It was one of those things that sounded wonderful last year until I actually implemented it.  We tried at the beginning, but it has just gotten harder and harder...to even find the will to do the bare minimum, lol.  I know the 4th graders at the Highlands Academy do it and it is designed for regular 5th grade homeschoolers, but I do not see that changing even next year for him.  

Seems like you have been trying to retool all your curricula. Have you thought through your goals and philosophy of home education? For me, these big picture ideas shaped my choices of which tools to use. Along with my teaching style, budget, and my kids’ personalities.

Start with the big picture. Focus on the basics - reading, writing, and math. When those are solid and working, add in content subjects and fun things. For these latter areas, do what your kids enjoy, follow rabbit trails and indulge interests.

We have all heard the arguments for studying Latin and for starting early. How do those ideas fit with your family, your goals? 
 

 

 

[Ting Tang]

16 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Seems like you have been trying to retool all your curricula. Have you thought through your goals and philosophy of home education? For me, these big picture ideas shaped my choices of which tools to use. Along with my teaching style, budget, and my kids’ personalities.

Start with the big picture. Focus on the basics - reading, writing, and math. When those are solid and working, add in content subjects and fun things. For these latter areas, do what your kids enjoy, follow rabbit trails and indulge interests.

We have all heard the arguments for studying Latin and for starting early. How do those ideas fit with your family, your goals? 
 

Thank you! We started because of the pandemic, but I started to see our local school wasn't doing well and how it wasn't giving our kids a good foundation.  But now my hope has evolved into providing them with something better than what they'd receive at the local public school and put them in a really nice spot for college.  That is where Latin came in.  I originally wanted to find a foreign language, and that is how I found the "classical model" of education.  I think the main issue is my oldest is NOTHING like I was at that age.  He isn't very nerdy.  This is probably not the norm, but I was already studying by myself in the 4th grade for tests. Another issue is we have four children all in a small house.  We really are not equipped for separate, quiet study spaces. There are so many distractions.  😞  So sometimes I feel like I am checking boxes, trying to get through it, because of the mayhem---and wanting to check out of the whole process and be done with our school day. No curriculum will solve that issue.  But then I wonder if a different approach would make it more desirable for them to tune in.  I think we need to tweak many things.  It's been school at home during a pandemic for us....but schools are probably less chaotic than our house, sigh.  I'd be taking more field trips if I felt comfortable.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by KrisTom

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, KrisTom said:

But then I wonder if a different approach would make it more desirable for them to tune in. 

The Brave Learner book really helped me with this question. I started this year super overwhelmed, I have an education coordinator through my charter homeschool thing and she just started me on one subject, then two subjects, and slowly build up to all the subjects that we are doing now. It helped me to see how my kids learn, how many times a week I want to even do any given topic, when do we want to "do" school (somehow handwriting and science happen so much better for us in the afternoon - morning it's pulling teeth, afternoon it's I planned a fun activity).  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

My DS really enjoyed the first level of MCT’s Latin-based vocabulary program (Building Language) which is super gentle. We haven’t begun the second level (Caesar’s English) yet  because it was a bit more of a leap than I felt DS was ready for. Instead, we’re working through Scholastic Latin & Greek Roots, which is a lightweight workbook with fill-in-the-blanks, crossword puzzles, & memory games. We’ll probably move on to CE in the fall, which will be 4th grade. 

That said, I absolutely do not think Latin - in any form - is a strictly necessary component of a quality education. If it doesn’t appeal to you / him, drop it & let him choose a modern language once he hits middle school age!  

[Green Bean]

I asked a similar question recently and received some great advice. Here is the link to the thread.

 

[Ting Tang]

14 hours ago, Clarita said:

The Brave Learner book really helped me with this question. I started this year super overwhelmed, I have an education coordinator through my charter homeschool thing and she just started me on one subject, then two subjects, and slowly build up to all the subjects that we are doing now. It helped me to see how my kids learn, how many times a week I want to even do any given topic, when do we want to "do" school (somehow handwriting and science happen so much better for us in the afternoon - morning it's pulling teeth, afternoon it's I planned a fun activity).  

Thank you so much!  Yes, those are good points--especially with the "when."  My second born is so demanding of getting through his classes, and I have to constantly tell him I need to work with others. It adds stress. My oldest could care less if he did any school work. It wouldn't phase him if we just stopped, LOL.  My daughter walks away a lot, which is terrible, but her first grade workload is so light, it doesn't bug me yet.  But it is a bad habit I should work on with her.

14 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

My DS really enjoyed the first level of MCT’s Latin-based vocabulary program (Building Language) which is super gentle. We haven’t begun the second level (Caesar’s English) yet  because it was a bit more of a leap than I felt DS was ready for. Instead, we’re working through Scholastic Latin & Greek Roots, which is a lightweight workbook with fill-in-the-blanks, crossword puzzles, & memory games. We’ll probably move on to CE in the fall, which will be 4th grade. 

That said, I absolutely do not think Latin - in any form - is a strictly necessary component of a quality education. If it doesn’t appeal to you / him, drop it & let him choose a modern language once he hits middle school age!  

Thank you so much.  I'll take a closer look at the MCT program. I have been considering it for grammar, but I haven't quite figured out how the books work or if the TM is necessary!

9 hours ago, Green Bean said:

I asked a similar question recently and received some great advice. Here is the link to the thread.

Thank you very much. I will read through this!

 

[maize]

Latin is more difficult than many languages for English speaker to grasp because English discarded noun declensions many centuries ago so we don't have an easy reference for understanding them. All indo-european languages used to be highly inflected like Latin, but while some, including Russian and German, retain nominal inflection, many others do not--including descendants of Latin such as French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.

For my family, we have so far limited study of Latin to root study--which is useful for understanding a lot of Lati-derived vocabulary in English. My primary goal with foreign language study is for my kids to be able to interact and communicate with the broader world, so we study modern languages. Currently I have kids studying Arabic, Chinese, Spanish, and German (not all the same kid!).

Edited January 30, 2022 by maize

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

2 hours ago, KrisTom said:

Thank you so much.  I'll take a closer look at the MCT program. I have been considering it for grammar, but I haven't quite figured out how the books work or if the TM is necessary!

As a general rule I’d say the TMs are necessary, but the Student Books are not. The TMs are copies of the SBs with extra information & assignments added. The only exception would be the Practice books, unless you don’t mind writing out all of the sentences yourself for your child(ren) to analyze. We do those on the dry-erase board. 

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

As a general rule I’d say the TMs are necessary, but the Student Books are not. The TMs are copies of the SBs with extra information & assignments added. The only exception would be the Practice books, unless you don’t mind writing out all of the sentences yourself for your child(ren) to analyze. We do those on the dry-erase board. 

Thank you--that is helpful. I thought they looked the same, except they had some thought-provoking questions.  Do you just read it like a story?

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

29 minutes ago, KrisTom said:

Thank you--that is helpful. I thought they looked the same, except they had some thought-provoking questions.  Do you just read it like a story?

Exactly! It also has little activities that it’ll prompt you to do as you go along (or maybe at the end; I can’t recall for that particular book). 

[Clarita]

9 hours ago, KrisTom said:

My daughter walks away a lot, which is terrible, but her first grade workload is so light, it doesn't bug me yet.

I tried to do preschool (because I seriously did not know what schooling should even look like when I started) I heard this a lot that students should sit still for the duration of the lessons sort of thing. Just so you know not all education experts agree on this. Pediatricians generally say kids are able to intently focus for their age in minutes, anything outside of that they may be doing work but they are not obtaining new knowledge.

(Take with a grain of salt because my kids are younger) I do let them walk away from their work. My limits for when they leave are they inform me they need a break, we agree on the amount of time (in activity or minute(s)), and I tell them a minimum goal I want accomplished for the day and what I wish would get done. I recently started to give my kids the option of proving they already know the material and I can scrap the entire lesson for the day.  They are also not allowed to do anything that would distract anyone who is still "working".   

[Ting Tang]

13 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I tried to do preschool (because I seriously did not know what schooling should even look like when I started) I heard this a lot that students should sit still for the duration of the lessons sort of thing. Just so you know not all education experts agree on this. Pediatricians generally say kids are able to intently focus for their age in minutes, anything outside of that they may be doing work but they are not obtaining new knowledge.

(Take with a grain of salt because my kids are younger) I do let them walk away from their work. My limits for when they leave are they inform me they need a break, we agree on the amount of time (in activity or minute(s)), and I tell them a minimum goal I want accomplished for the day and what I wish would get done. I recently started to give my kids the option of proving they already know the material and I can scrap the entire lesson for the day.  They are also not allowed to do anything that would distract anyone who is still "working".   

Thank you so much!  Sometimes I think she is modeling her behavior after a certain older brother, and I am trying to nip it in the bud, but I may also have unreasonable expectations for that older brother (hence here I am looking at comic strip Latin or roots, lol).

[Dianthus]

I'm not reading through all replies. And I just replied to another of your Latin posts. I think FFL is too much work for a 10 yr old. My kids are extremely bright, but no one likes to do a lot of writing at 10 yrs old. My dd is doing FFL now at 12, mostly independently, which is a great time-saver for me. She doesn't mind the dryness, she likes that she knows the method and can get it done in her own time.  I can't imagine her, at 10, searching the text and finding the answers to the questions. I doubt that there would be much understanding and retention if she did do that. I would have to spoon feed her that entire program at that age. I'm not sure if that's what you're doing?

Anyway, I don't think you should abandon Latin because of one bad curriculum choice. For us, FFL was one of the few good parts of our MP adventure this year. But, I think it is dry and writing overkill for a 10 yr old. Seriously try GSWL. It's painless, and your son can begin playing with translations. It's much more fun.

[Ting Tang]

7 hours ago, Spirea said:

I'm not reading through all replies. And I just replied to another of your Latin posts. I think FFL is too much work for a 10 yr old. My kids are extremely bright, but no one likes to do a lot of writing at 10 yrs old. My dd is doing FFL now at 12, mostly independently, which is a great time-saver for me. She doesn't mind the dryness, she likes that she knows the method and can get it done in her own time.  I can't imagine her, at 10, searching the text and finding the answers to the questions. I doubt that there would be much understanding and retention if she did do that. I would have to spoon feed her that entire program at that age. I'm not sure if that's what you're doing?

Anyway, I don't think you should abandon Latin because of one bad curriculum choice. For us, FFL was one of the few good parts of our MP adventure this year. But, I think it is dry and writing overkill for a 10 yr old. Seriously try GSWL. It's painless, and your son can begin playing with translations. It's much more fun.

I just responded under the other thread.  I think it is a good program, just not for a 10 year old boy, lol, and he started it at 9.  He has never studied ancient history beyond the myths, so I think having the historical content will also help.  🙂

[Ting Tang]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:28 AM, maize said:

Latin is more difficult than many languages for English speaker to grasp because English discarded noun declensions many centuries ago so we don't have an easy reference for understanding them. All indo-european languages used to be highly inflected like Latin, but while some, including Russian and German, retain nominal inflection, many others do not--including descendants of Latin such as French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.

For my family, we have so far limited study of Latin to root study--which is useful for understanding a lot of Lati-derived vocabulary in English. My primary goal with foreign language study is for my kids to be able to interact and communicate with the broader world, so we study modern languages. Currently I have kids studying Arabic, Chinese, Spanish, and German (not all the same kid!).

Wow, those are great choices and very interesting.  I'd love to "add" a modern language, but I think we will give this Latin one more try with another curriculum.  My choice would be French because I studied it.  I would be completely intimidated by Arabic or Chinese, but I see the practicality and benefits of those.  

[Dianthus]

1 hour ago, KrisTom said:

I just responded under the other thread.  I think it is a good program, just not for a 10 year old boy, lol, and he started it at 9.  He has never studied ancient history beyond the myths, so I think having the historical content will also help.  🙂

Maybe I should have mentioned. My kids also study Spanish. They take lessons and the teacher creates the curriculum. I reinforce at home. It's not high intensity, but it is alot when we also do Latin. There is some overlap which i think is good for reinforcement. I'm not going to make Latin grueling for them. Even so, I think LFC and FFL should start at about 12 yrs old.

Have you checked out resources at your library? There may be some things that would be helpful. We've gotten Latin picture dictionaries at ours. It might be nice to just have your son take a break for a day and look at a picture dictionary instead of writing pages of declensions.

Latin for Children is better about history and context.

[Ting Tang]

6 hours ago, Spirea said:

Maybe I should have mentioned. My kids also study Spanish. They take lessons and the teacher creates the curriculum. I reinforce at home. It's not high intensity, but it is alot when we also do Latin. There is some overlap which i think is good for reinforcement. I'm not going to make Latin grueling for them. Even so, I think LFC and FFL should start at about 12 yrs old.

Have you checked out resources at your library? There may be some things that would be helpful. We've gotten Latin picture dictionaries at ours. It might be nice to just have your son take a break for a day and look at a picture dictionary instead of writing pages of declensions.

Latin for Children is better about history and context.

Unfortunately, we do not have a local library.  I have thought Spanish would be practical as well.  I don't mind purchasing resources at all, but yes, my goal is not to make it too grueling at this age and make him resistant.  I've definitely read about kids who hate Latin on the MP forums.  😞

[Dianthus]

27 minutes ago, KrisTom said:

Unfortunately, we do not have a local library. 

I'm so sorry 😞  That would be so difficult.

Try ebay or other 2nd hand sites for books.