Barton and LiPS Questions

[Mom0012]

I used to be a regular on this board years ago, but now both my kids are off at college. My youngest left last fall.

And I need something worthwhile to engage me!

I have always been very enthusiastic about helping struggling readers. I worked with adults who couldn't read through a local literacy program when I was in college. I poured a lot of research and effort into helping my son. I'd like to start a tutoring business focusing on reading instruction for dyslexics and struggling readers. I used Spell to Read and Write with my son, and I might pick up another copy of that, but I've been reading about Barton and watching her videos and that seems to be the way to go.

I am thinking about starting by ordering levels one and two of the program and then getting some practice in with a friend's dyslexic daughter. 

Are there any other materials I should consider investing in to start? I was considering buying LiPS from Lindamood Bell. Is it reasonable to think I can manage to use LiPS with the manual or do I need to attend one of their workshops?

Any other materials I might want to consider?

One concern I have about Barton is that it seems to pretty much be a one-woman show and Susan Barton may be nearing retirement age. Any thoughts or insight into that?

 

[PeterPan]

Well first, it's great that you're wanting to go into literacy as there are always people needing help! Yes, you might find LIPS an amazing help. If you look at the screening test on Barton's site, she refers kids off to LIPS (the most flexible, a favorite of SLPs and professionals) and FIS (newer, open/go like the Barton program making it easy for parents). 

I would assume Barton will sell her business to someone when the time comes, so I don't think that's a worry. Make sure you're buying the tutor (higher price) version and make sure you buy multiple sets of tiles. 

In general I would still encourage you to consider OG training, because it will give you credentials. Barton herself has been doing training that gets you a listing in her directory I think. I think she encourages her tutors to buy some basic tools like the CTOPP, so you might have that consideration as well. 

Many kids with dyslexia will also need help with writing or other areas, but you can come back to the boards for help with that. 

You could get the question of kids who are already reading but not spelling well. Barton will be a harder sell with them because it assumes kids are starting at the beginning. Technically she has a series of placement tests. Just saying it's the least flexible tool and that OG training might might that easier for you.

[Kanin]

I think you could manage LiPS with just the manual, as long as you have some reading intervention experience. You have to thoroughly understand the manual. It's a dense read, but it's doable. 

[4KookieKids]

I also think LiPS is doable with just the manual. I read it cover to cover several times and watched a few videos that had a lot of similar content, and used it effectively with two kiddos. I met someone formally trained in it years later, and they confirmed that I’d been using it correctly, which was a great boost of confidence. 🙂

[Mom0012]

Great to hear about LiPS being doable with the manual! I've been looking at Foundation in Sounds as well.

Since I posted this, I have started to work with my nephew who is a rising 11th grader. 

I had planned to use Barton with him, but I am wondering if it is really appropriate for him. He tested in the 30th percentile of the PSAT reading portion last year, so he can definitely read. He passed the Barton student screening with flying colors. I gave him the Let's Go Learn DORA reading assessment and got an odd result -- 5th grade vocabulary level but 12th grade reading comprehension. I was listening while he was answering the comprehension questions and he did it very quickly, almost to the point that I thought he might be guessing. Next week, once school is over, he is going to take a practice SAT reading test for me, so I can get a better idea of where his comprehension level is.

I also used the San Diego Assessment SWR uses to place students in their program. He placed in list W for SWR. I had him do a fluency reading from an old book I had -- 6 minute solutions. It only goes up to 8th grade, but he was reading about 100 wpm and told me he felt like he would really slow down if he had to keep going. I know that's slow, but he was very accurate and didn't make any mistakes when reading the passage.

Today, I started going through the phonograms from SWR with him thinking I might just start at list T and work through it and then follow up with Rewards Secondary Reading and Six-Minute Solutions. I worked with him to get the Libby app on his phone so he could start listening to audiobooks and I was also going to have him use an old Vocabulary program I have from my homeschooling days.

When I ran through the SWR phonogram cards with him, he surprised me with how many of the phonograms he did not know. This has me questioning if SWR is the right choice for him and whether I should go with Barton after all?

A little more info about him -- he scored in the 6th percentile for math on his PSAT. I went through some of the addition and multiplication facts with him and he does not know them at all. And yet, he has just finished geometry with an A! I don't know if he can learn them or if he was just handed a calculator early on and never really needed to learn them.

I just don't know if Barton is appropriate for him or not. I want to make the best use of his time. My son hated SWR and I'm sure my nephew will too. It is quite tedious. I don't know how Barton compares.

 

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:19 PM, PeterPan said:

Well first, it's great that you're wanting to go into literacy as there are always people needing help! Yes, you might find LIPS an amazing help. If you look at the screening test on Barton's site, she refers kids off to LIPS (the most flexible, a favorite of SLPs and professionals) and FIS (newer, open/go like the Barton program making it easy for parents). 

I would assume Barton will sell her business to someone when the time comes, so I don't think that's a worry. Make sure you're buying the tutor (higher price) version and make sure you buy multiple sets of tiles. 

In general I would still encourage you to consider OG training, because it will give you credentials. Barton herself has been doing training that gets you a listing in her directory I think. I think she encourages her tutors to buy some basic tools like the CTOPP, so you might have that consideration as well. 

Many kids with dyslexia will also need help with writing or other areas, but you can come back to the boards for help with that. 

You could get the question of kids who are already reading but not spelling well. Barton will be a harder sell with them because it assumes kids are starting at the beginning. Technically she has a series of placement tests. Just saying it's the least flexible tool and that OG training might might that easier for you.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Mom0012

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

5th grade vocabulary level but 12th grade reading comprehension.

So vocabulary may be the cause of his reading problems. 

Remind us, what are you trying to improve here? What's the problem? His overall reading scores are low but you're not sure *why*? Reading is more than decoding. 

https://institute.aimpa.org/resources/pathways-to-practice/pathways-to-practice-resources/virtual-teaching-techniques/  You might look at this site which has free webinars on each strand of what they call the reading rope. By the time you get to high school, other things besides decoding are probably a factor. Given how well he tested for SWR, I don't see how spelling (or probably even decoding) are the issues. If his vocabulary or other skills are low, that may be the explanation.

Has anyone asked the school to run testing? It is a *federal right* to get evaluations through the ps to determine if a disability is affecting the dc's ability to access his education. The legal guardian makes a written request and goes through the process. This would allow them to do SLP, psych, and other evals to get a better picture of why his reading is being affected. It's NOT only decoding.

I think you're wise to continue to look for tests that will give you data on what to target. It doesn't make sense to go through Barton if his issue is vocabulary. If you call/email Barton, she can send you placement/end of unit tests. He really may not need Barton at all. If his issue is vocabulary, it might make more sense to work on morphology. Rasinski has quite a bit on how to work on vocabulary. http://www.timrasinski.com/presentations/vocabulary_presentation.pdf

Has this student ever used audiobooks? If he uses an audiobook without visual, how does he do? Does he have any problem understanding speech when there's background noise like a kitchen fan or in a noisy restaurant? Has he ever had speech therapy?

There's plenty of evidence that using audiobooks *paired* with text can make dramatic gains in reading. You might try him on this and see how he does. The easiest way is with a kindle or a kindle app. You set it to do "immersion reading." https://help.audible.com/s/article/what-is-immersion-reading?language=en_US  Some students make DRAMATIC gains, even 3-4 grade levels in a year, doing immersion reading. Their comprehension improves with the professional readers and the input of the sound and visual at the same time. Given that he's having trouble with vocabulary, audiobooks would be an excellent way to increase his exposure. If he comprehends them well and doesn't have problems, he can *increase the speed* slowly to get to where he is listening at a much faster pace. The more he ear reads like this, the more his vocabulary should go up. The data shows that vocabulary levels are often directly connected to how much someone reads, so getting him more exposure to language via audiobooks is an evidence based way to fill that gap. And increasing the speed (as long as he can comprehend) will make that even better.

 

[PeterPan]

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Comprehension-Blueprint-Helping-Students/dp/1681254034?asin=B08JSQWT14&revisionId=&format=2&depth=1  

You might see if your library has this book. I watched a webinar by the author and it seemed to cover good stuff.

[Mom0012]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So vocabulary may be the cause of his reading problems. 

Remind us, what are you trying to improve here? What's the problem? His overall reading scores are low but you're not sure *why*? Reading is more than decoding. 

https://institute.aimpa.org/resources/pathways-to-practice/pathways-to-practice-resources/virtual-teaching-techniques/  You might look at this site which has free webinars on each strand of what they call the reading rope. By the time you get to high school, other things besides decoding are probably a factor. Given how well he tested for SWR, I don't see how spelling (or probably even decoding) are the issues. If his vocabulary or other skills are low, that may be the explanation.

Has anyone asked the school to run testing? It is a *federal right* to get evaluations through the ps to determine if a disability is affecting the dc's ability to access his education. The legal guardian makes a written request and goes through the process. This would allow them to do SLP, psych, and other evals to get a better picture of why his reading is being affected. It's NOT only decoding.

I think you're wise to continue to look for tests that will give you data on what to target. It doesn't make sense to go through Barton if his issue is vocabulary. If you call/email Barton, she can send you placement/end of unit tests. He really may not need Barton at all. If his issue is vocabulary, it might make more sense to work on morphology. Rasinski has quite a bit on how to work on vocabulary. http://www.timrasinski.com/presentations/vocabulary_presentation.pdf

Has this student ever used audiobooks? If he uses an audiobook without visual, how does he do? Does he have any problem understanding speech when there's background noise like a kitchen fan or in a noisy restaurant? Has he ever had speech therapy?

There's plenty of evidence that using audiobooks *paired* with text can make dramatic gains in reading. You might try him on this and see how he does. The easiest way is with a kindle or a kindle app. You set it to do "immersion reading." https://help.audible.com/s/article/what-is-immersion-reading?language=en_US  Some students make DRAMATIC gains, even 3-4 grade levels in a year, doing immersion reading. Their comprehension improves with the professional readers and the input of the sound and visual at the same time. Given that he's having trouble with vocabulary, audiobooks would be an excellent way to increase his exposure. If he comprehends them well and doesn't have problems, he can *increase the speed* slowly to get to where he is listening at a much faster pace. The more he ear reads like this, the more his vocabulary should go up. The data shows that vocabulary levels are often directly connected to how much someone reads, so getting him more exposure to language via audiobooks is an evidence based way to fill that gap. And increasing the speed (as long as he can comprehend) will make that even better.

 

Oh, thank you very much!  

He's always been very frustrated in school, wanting to do well, but never really being able to. He had a very noticeable processing problem when he was little. After I started listening to all the Barton videos, I was thinking he might be a candidate for that program, but now that I've done some screening and assessments, I don't think so.

But, his reading is slow and he obviously doesn't know or understand many things you would expect a kid his age to know. I asked him what books he'd read this last year and he laughed because he hadn't read any.

I got him set up with an audiobook app (Libby) earlier today thinking that might help him more than anything, as long as his listening comprehension is okay. I bought an old copy of the Rewards secondary program which focuses on syllables and I had been looking at the old SRA Spelling through Morphographs book. I will absolutely try to get him going with the immersion reading. That is something I had done with my son quite a while ago. That is a very exciting prospect and something I think he might actually enjoy doing and find manageable.

Part of my problem is that I am just getting started after many years away from this and I don't have good assessment resources. There is no way he is getting any kind of testing. His mother is not going to make that happen at the school and she will not be able to pay for it.

But! I feel you have reinforced much of what I have been thinking about what he needs. I was feeling like I should do a reading program with him to strengthen those skills, and might be cheating him by not doing so, but there is so little time left before he graduates, I don't want to waste time going in that direction if he doesn't need it. 

Thank you!

What do you think of Rewards Reading or Spelling though Morphographs? Are you familiar with those programs?

[Mom0012]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Comprehension-Blueprint-Helping-Students/dp/1681254034?asin=B08JSQWT14&revisionId=&format=2&depth=1  

You might see if your library has this book. I watched a webinar by the author and it seemed to cover good stuff.

I will definitely read through all of the resources you have sent me. This is all a goldmine to me! Thank you again! I feel your comments are helping me to move in the right direction for him.

 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

Rewards Reading or Spelling though Morphographs?

Why? His reading scores are find except for vocabulary and his spelling score are awesome. He has a language problem. You want materials that address the language problem.

4 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

He had a very noticeable processing problem when he was little.

Well what's commonly called auditory processing is a language processing problem. https://www.therapro.com/Differential-Processing-Training-Program-Acoustic-Tasks.html  See if you can find samples from the books in this series and see if you think he could do the tasks easily or if they would be challenging. 

https://www.proedinc.com/Products/31050/differential-processing-training-program-3book-s.aspx?bCategory=OLA!LIST  Here's the publisher. I'm not guaranteeing it's his problem, just saying it *could* be. You don't have data to indicate he needs a spelling or decoding program, so spending money on those doesn't make sense. If he's shying away from audio, not comprehending audio, then maybe look at that auditory side of language and see if that's where the issue is.

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm NOT saying buy this book. https://www.therapro.com/The-Source-For-Processing-Disorders-Second-Edition.html  If you look at the samples, you can see the toc and see the types of topics covered. You're saying everyone senses a "processing disorder" and doesn't have the words or know quite what. This is a whole book on it and maybe it will give you ideas on things to look at, things to eliminate.

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

I got him set up with an audiobook app (Libby) earlier today thinking that might help him more than anything, as long as his listening comprehension is okay.

As you help him find books to listen to and ear read, you can enter them into a lexile finder to see what lexile is working for him. Then you can use a lexile search engine to help him find more books. We use a lot of audiobooks, but I swear there are so many that it almost feels like you can't find anything, lol. Giving him classics or stuff that is too high might be too much, kwim? He may need some help to find things that work for him. I'm not familiar with Libby. Will that connect with library offerings and your public library account? I would suggest trying some popular things at a much lower grade level than you expect and work up. Can be classics and can be popular new stuff. My ds is really into the Redwall series, which might be readily available. 

https://hub.lexile.com/  This is the lexile search engine I use. Lexile controls for syntactical complexity, vocabulary, etc. so it's a helpful way to track reading levels for your student. You can see where his language is functioning by looking at the lexile of things he enjoys.

Edited June 7, 2021 by PeterPan

[Mom0012]

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Why? His reading scores are find except for vocabulary and his spelling score are awesome. He has a language problem. You want materials that address the language problem.

Well what's commonly called auditory processing is a language processing problem. https://www.therapro.com/Differential-Processing-Training-Program-Acoustic-Tasks.html  See if you can find samples from the books in this series and see if you think he could do the tasks easily or if they would be challenging. 

https://www.proedinc.com/Products/31050/differential-processing-training-program-3book-s.aspx?bCategory=OLA!LIST  Here's the publisher. I'm not guaranteeing it's his problem, just saying it *could* be. You don't have data to indicate he needs a spelling or decoding program, so spending money on those doesn't make sense. If he's shying away from audio, not comprehending audio, then maybe look at that auditory side of language and see if that's where the issue is.

 

 

His spelling is good (at 8th grade and he's entering 11th), but it is below grade level and when I went through the phonogram cards with him, he didn't know some of the very basic ones like "ck". That's kind of why I thought he might benefit from some work with multisyllable words. But maybe he doesn't need that?

That is where he came out on the DORA assessment for spelling as well -- 8th grade. Do you think that's not a big enough gap to be concerned about or did I not mention he was entering 11th earlier? 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mom0012

[Mom0012]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

As you help him find books to listen to and ear read, you can enter them into a lexile finder to see what lexile is working for him. Then you can use a lexile search engine to help him find more books. We use a lot of audiobooks, but I swear there are so many that it almost feels like you can't find anything, lol. Giving him classics or stuff that is too high might be too much, kwim? He may need some help to find things that work for him. I'm not familiar with Libby. Will that connect with library offerings and your public library account? I would suggest trying some popular things at a much lower grade level than you expect and work up. Can be classics and can be popular new stuff. My ds is really into the Redwall series, which might be readily available. 

https://hub.lexile.com/  This is the lexile search engine I use. Lexile controls for syntactical complexity, vocabulary, etc. so it's a helpful way to track reading levels for your student. You can see where his language is functioning by looking at the lexile of things he enjoys.

Thanks. Libby does connect with the library offerings through Overdrive. My plan was to pull out my old Sonlight catalogs to make suggestions, starting out easy and then increasing difficulty level. That lexile link will be another great resource for me.

 

[PeterPan]

29 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

His spelling is good (at 8th grade and he's entering 11th), but it is below grade level and when I went through the phonogram cards with him, he didn't know some of the very basic ones like "ck". That's kind of why I thought he might benefit from some work with multisyllable words. But maybe he doesn't need that?

That is where he came out on the DORA assessment for spelling as well -- 8th grade. Do you think that's not a big enough gap to be concerned about or did I not mention he was entering 11th earlier? 

 

 

Even if you did, I'm crazy, lol.

Given how low his vocabulary is, he's spelling what he knows. So putting that out there. So your spelling and vocabulary studies merge, and what you're looking for is something based on morphology. 

To me the question would be whether he doesn't know the phonograms because he was taught in a ps, guess and check, whole word crap method (yes?) or because his language processing doesn't extend to recognizing the parts of words. (the auditory processing stuff I linked for you) It sounds like a subtle difference, but you can have both or either/or going on. But it's more blatant too, like if you give him the word "duck" or even a nonsense word "xuck" he can probably sound it out and get to a correct answer, yes? But then when you go at it totally auditorily and ask how he's hearing the sounds, how he's chunking the components of words (pitch, phonograms, syllables, morphemes=word chunks, who words, phrases, sentences) that could be where the breakdown is. It's what you're actually looking for, where the breakdown is.

30 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

My plan was to pull out my old Sonlight catalogs

Hmm. Well I guess see what happens. I would go with newer lit, something that appeals to boys, something that is part of a *series* so you can get him hooked and don't have to keep finding new books constantly. And look for nonfiction. That lexile hub can connect you with nonfiction so you could double what he's reading. I use the BARD/National Library Service for ds, so I'm constantly using nonfiction. I just pop in a term and take what comes up. Does your library system have Great Courses? They have very accessible (high school level) Great Courses on audio and they have very interesting adult level Great Courses. So not just fiction. 80% of reading comprehension is PRIOR KNOWLEDGE. Because he's not reading, he's not building prior knowledge. So you can step up his reading comprehension by filling in his basic knowledge holes using audiobooks of history, science, etc. Niched topics work but also just really basic survey books. Like maybe History of Dummies, Gombrich's Short History of the World, Great Courses, Joy of Science, anything that appeals to him. Up/down the level to find the right fit, but that's the idea. 

He's close to 18? When is he allowed to make the request himself? At 16 he's allowed to attend his own IEP meeting, yes? So I'll bet he's allowed to make his own request through the school for evals. You can google and see his legal rights. He would gain accommodations, possibly some services, and maybe access to the NLS depending on the diagnosis. Just the NLS alone is a big win and worth the hassle, because it's audiobooks for LIFE, amazing.

[PeterPan]

See if your app can get you *magazines* and hit the tts to make the magazines turn audio. So now he can read magazines on areas of interest. Now you have THREE types of reading he can do every day using audiobooks. 

Has he ever tried graphic novels? You might try those for required reading of physical print. Also look at books in this series https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1616510978/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Mom0012]

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

See if your app can get you *magazines* and hit the tts to make the magazines turn audio. So now he can read magazines on areas of interest. Now you have THREE types of reading he can do every day using audiobooks. 

Has he ever tried graphic novels? You might try those for required reading of physical print. Also look at books in this series https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1616510978/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Okay, I will think more on your reading suggestions. He had asked me if it was okay to start with The Maze Runner once we downloaded Libby and I said Yes! I was just thinking so much of the popular fiction is at a very low reading level, but it sounds like you are saying there is good stuff out there, so I will find it. He used to like to read all the Guinness World Record books, so maybe I can get him into some nonfiction. And magazines would be good as well. Thanks again! I think this may really help him in a way that is manageable. I will let you know how he progresses.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mom0012

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mom0012 said:

I was just thinking so much of the popular fiction is at a very low reading level

If his vocabulary is 5th grade level, then he NEEDS something lower. He's not ready to go into Jules Verne, lol.

Ok, so the Maze Runner is 770L. I have no clue if it's good or not, but it sounds fun and age appropriate. And a 770L for pleasure is a 4th grade book, which makes sense given his vocabulary scores. If you consider he's going to pleasure read 2 grades maybe below instructional level, that's a PERFECT level for him to be pleasure reading! And the more he does that, the more he's going to progress.

So what you might do then is bump that a bit in the hub. Like if you put in 800, they're going to show books that are +/- 50 from that. Might be great. Then you can throw a range of things at him and see what happens. Or put in like 825 and it will show 775-875 for the range, which is pushing him up. But don't do that for everything. Just some things, reach books, things he'll find so interesting that he wants to stretch for him.

Then you can use audiobooks just like print and FLOOD him with great literature. See if that starts to build that vocabulary. A lot of the dropoff is because kids who struggle aren't getting the input. 

So then you can snag a history spine, some nonfiction stuff, whatever, that is maybe at that 850 level, something he can get to without it feeling too hard. Audiobooks through the library are free, so you can just try stuff. But no, I would have NO qualms having him read that. More is the goal at this point and his assessment of his level fits the test data you have.

[PeterPan]

I'm gonna see if BARD has that book. Now I'm totally curious, lol.

[PeterPan]

Ok, if you put in 850 into the lexile finder, it shows 750 to 900. Then you can click to limit to fiction/nonfiction/poetry and then on the next page limit subcategory to historical. That will give you some nice options. 

It's just a way to find things that might work for him. And maybe your library can filter books that way too, dunno.