Ramifications of 504 vs IEP

[SanDiegoMom]

Ok, I know this has been discussed before but I thought I would ask first as I am getting bogged down in research on other subjects (ok trying to find a short spring break getaway for my college kid and her two broke roommates).  

I sent an email to the school counselor about getting an IEP for my kid, and this is what I got back:

Hi Sandiegomom,

 

Are you thinking he needs accommodations like extra time or the ability to type, or remediation (teaching of skills by a special education teacher)? If it is just the accommodations, perhaps a 504 accommodation plan would be the best route to take. Students who qualify for IEPs have difficulty accessing regular classes, and it sounds like your son might be taking higher level AP classes. Let me know your thoughts.

 

It is hard for me to know what he needs, as he hasn't been in regular school since 2nd grade.  I know his processing speed is 48 points lower than his FSIQ.  I know he has anxiety.  I know his handwriting isn't great, but he's never really had too much issue with it honestly, and I'm sure he won't want to stand out in class as the kid that gets to type when others have to write.  I know AP English will be challenging due to the timed writing aspect, and he struggles with all aspects of writing that are supposed to be about himself, or in which he has to take an opinion.  I don't know how much of these issues are due to the ASD vs just him, but it was NOT an average amount of stress that he exhibited when having to write from those two styles of writing. He does much better when writing literary analysis or expository. 

Any thoughts?  I am hoping to access accommodations for AP testing as well, so I don't know whether there is a difference between the IEP and 504 in seeking College Board accommodations.   

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

FIRST the school does a multifactored eval to determine whether disabilities exist. THEN they look at their report and as a team decide whether it should be a 504 or IEP. 

So the key is to get evals to show the disabilities that need intervention. Having good grades or taking AP classes does not mean he does not qualify for interventions. However if his disabilities are not affecting his ability to access his education (which is what the grades and classes make it appear) then you're relegated to doing the interventions privately. 

504 is accommodations. IEP is specialized instruction, intervention.

Do you have evidence that something for which you want intervention (say social skills) is affecting his ability to access his education?

But really, they're giving you the run around. You ahve a report, compel them to eval. Reiterate that you are requesting evals and let them sort out the 504 vs IEP.

[PeterPan]

56 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

timed writing

Yes, that's 504, accommodations. Extra time, breaks, limited distraction environment, whatever, all that is your 504 stuff. Some schools will even do OT and still call it a 504. 

IEP is specialized instruction, intervention. He needs counseling for self regulation. His interoception problems are making it hard for him to participate in class. Schools will not necessarily do an IEP for OT alone. That's why many people end up doing private. So for IEP you're saying services.

So the irony is, you're at the beginning of the process and are hoping they'll be honest and tell you all the things you don't realize you'd like to make happen for your dc, things that would help your dc. And their interest is in keeping the tab down. ;)  So you figure out what you think needs to happen and you advocate for it. Or just roll with their bare minimum.

But no matter what, to get them to pay for interventions, you have to prove he needs those services (not accommodations, services) to access his education. The accommodations and 504 will be easy. It's the IEP and asking for services that is uphill.

Edited February 22, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

And just to continue to ramble and contrast, my ds has an IEP and has had it since K5. He requires specialized instruction and significant therapy services to be able to access his education. He also has accommodations, but we would not anticipate him going to a 504 only, because he requires services and specialized instruction. My dd, on the other hand, when eval'ed by the ps (to generate paper trail for college) was offered a 504. She could DE and do all kinds of stuff, but she needed accommodations. A 504 is perfect for that. We had already paid for her services (OT, etc.) privately over the years, and she was functional with accommodations like extra time, preferential seating, etc.

But both went through the multifactorered evals where the team then decided which way to go. It should all be on your state's dept of ed site. Look for an IEP timeline. And the reason you need to specifically state your request is to start the timeline and stop this dorking around. I'm not sure what you wrote, but if it was a request, then reiterate that you repeat you are making a request for evals and make it in writing, dated, signed, done. Or be polite and play dumb and say you understand the team decides IEP vs. 504 but that you suspect disabilities affecting his ability to access his education and are requesting the school eval him.

Edited February 22, 2021 by PeterPan

[SanDiegoMom]

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And just to continue to ramble and contrast, my ds has an IEP and has had it since K5. He requires specialized instruction and significant therapy services to be able to access his education. He also has accommodations, but we would not anticipate him going to a 504 only, because he requires services and specialized instruction. My dd, on the other hand, when eval'ed by the ps (to generate paper trail for college) was offered a 504. She could DE and do all kinds of stuff, but she needed accommodations. A 504 is perfect for that. We had already paid for her services (OT, etc.) privately over the years, and she was functional with accommodations like extra time, preferential seating, etc.

But both went through the multifactorered evals where the team then decided which way to go. It should all be on your state's dept of ed site. Look for an IEP timeline. And the reason you need to specifically state your request is to start the timeline and stop this dorking around. I'm not sure what you wrote, but if it was a request, then reiterate that you repeat you are making a request for evals and make it in writing, dated, signed, done. Or be polite and play dumb and say you understand the team decides IEP vs. 504 but that you suspect disabilities affecting his ability to access his education and are requesting the school eval him.

Ok this is good info.  I doubt he needs too much from the school -- we are doing private therapy already and just found a great team that offers a lot of different services (self pay but we have decent insurance that will reimburse a good portion).   So we are not interested in services from the school really, just a 504 for extra time and maybe preferential seating when they go back.  I think the testing they do is the same either way, but I absolutely do think they want to keep the tab down as the school system does not like spending much money on their special ed.  Or much money in general.  

 

[City Mouse]

A 504 will get a student accommodations for SAT/ACT testing, but you do need to be aware that the process for requesting those accommodations is in addition to the 504 and will take several months. (Actually, it is not the 504 itself that causes the board to grant accommodations, but the testing is required along with documentation of accommodations that have been used regularly. I have heard that accommodations can still be approved without a 504) 

Don’t do what I did and wait too long to start the process of requesting those accommodations. It didn’t matter much for my kid as he was not planning to attend a college that had a test score requirement. At the schools he was looking at, the test scores are only used for placement 

[PeterPan]

With dd we did not end up asking for extra time on the ACT. You can do tests both ways to see if the extra time changes the scores. It did for her for one test and not the others. The overall affect on her score, because of the way the ACT is scored (vs the SAT) was not enough to be worth the effort as her overall score was already qualifying her for what she wanted. 

So it can be worth jumping through the hoops, but you can run the data and see if it will make a difference or not before you bother. 

[KathyKuhl]

23 hours ago, City Mouse said:

Don’t do what I did and wait too long to start the process of requesting those accommodations.

Re SAT/ACT accommodations, be sure to describe all accommodations you currently provide, whether you transcribe, use dictation software, or anything else you may think typical, but not normally provided to a neurotypical student in a typical classroom. 
Also, Hal and Melanie Young’s book on getting accommodations is good. I reviewed it here: https://www.learndifferently.com/2018/12/07/accommodations-for-college-exams-classes-new-book-helps-parents-students/

[KathyKuhl]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:53 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

I know his handwriting isn't great, but he's never really had too much issue with it honestly, and I'm sure he won't want to stand out in class as the kid that gets to type when others have to write.  I know AP English will be challenging due to the timed writing aspect, and he struggles with all aspects of writing that are supposed to be about himself, or in which he has to take an opinion. 

I don’t know his age, but don’t be too quick rule out requesting the typing accommodation, because his workload will ramp up. I understand he doesn’t want to stand out, so now is probably time to help him come to terms with using accommodations. 
The best book I’ve read for helping students learn to advocate for themselves and accept accommodations is Henry Reiff’s Self-Advocacy Skills for Students with Learning Disabilities: Making it Happen in College and Beyond. It’s not perfect, and it’s not new, but it’s clear, helpful, and encouraging. And the author is a professor and a PhD with learning disabilities who had to learn these skills for himself. My review: http://www.learndifferently.com/2017/07/20/self-advocacy-skills-for-students-with-learning-disabilities/

[SeaConquest]

I have one son (younger) who needed an IEP for services and one (older) who only needed a 504 for accommodations (he is PG, but 2e), but as the others have said, I made both schools go through extensive evals to ensure that we didn't miss anything and also that everything was well-documented. My advice is to have the school handle all of the accommodations requests with the ACT/SAT/AP. I thought this was going to be a headache, but the school disability coordinator has the relationships with ACT/SAT/AP folks and it took no time to get the paperwork back from the College Board saying that my older son was approved for double time, typing, preferential seating, breaks as needed, etc. And this was all approved well before he sat for any exams and will last him his entire high school career (and he uses the 504 to access disability services in his community college courses as well). It was definitely worth it to go through the full evals. Don't let them try to short you. You don't know what you need until you see the evals and sit together with the team in the IEP meetings.

Edited February 24, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Lecka]

You can ask his current therapy team their suggestions.  They might also be able to write a letter for the school, if he has already had testing they might be able to summarize it or provide it so he doesn't have repeat testing.  

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Ok, I will sit down with him to talk about what he thinks he will need before we meet with the counselor.  They do their own testing if it is an IEP, but we will go the 504 route, so it will just go straight into discussing what supports are needed.  I will send the diagnosis ahead of time.  I also will have my husband with me (thank goodness!) as believe it or not, my son and I share similar problems communicating while anxious, lol.  I tend to blank and then just immediately cave to whatever they say or forget to bring up my own concerns. (I have started a list at least). They seem REALLY on the ball -- communication over emails has been almost immediate and they also are suggesting additional sources (school support groups I think?)  

It is hard to know what the issues will be since he hasn't been in class in years, but we will try to use our imagination.  The list I made:

1.  Ask school if they can handle 504 requests with College Board

2. Typing instead of writing (I realized that when taking notes he handwrites, but he is always able to pause the lectures as they are pre-recorded -- for the outside classes he takes at least.  His public school classes are so easy he doesn't need to know but he will need to at some point and I realized he might struggle in an in person lecture)

3. Extended testing time 

4. Preferential seating 

5.  Assignments always written, not given verbally 

6.  Breaks when needed 

Thanks everyone for your input, it's helped me a lot! I will especially start thinking early about teaching to self advocate.  My oldest (adhd) never had any issues as she is VERY determined to get what she thinks she needs, and has no issues contacting any and all people concerned! Such different personalities. 

It seems like a lot to me since he has been coping and getting along well enough... but he does tend to be prone to meltdowns due to anxiety and having a safe place to go will be so helpful to him.  He might never need extended time, but he does make a lot of mistakes when he realizes how slow he's going and then he gets so anxious.  

 

[SeaConquest]

38 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Ok, I will sit down with him to talk about what he thinks he will need before we meet with the counselor.  They do their own testing if it is an IEP, but we will go the 504 route, so it will just go straight into discussing what supports are needed.  I will send the diagnosis ahead of time.  I also will have my husband with me (thank goodness!) as believe it or not, my son and I share similar problems communicating while anxious, lol.  I tend to blank and then just immediately cave to whatever they say or forget to bring up my own concerns. (I have started a list at least). They seem REALLY on the ball -- communication over emails has been almost immediate and they also are suggesting additional sources (school support groups I think?)  

It is hard to know what the issues will be since he hasn't been in class in years, but we will try to use our imagination.  The list I made:

1.  Ask school if they can handle 504 requests with College Board

2. Typing instead of writing (I realized that when taking notes he handwrites, but he is always able to pause the lectures as they are pre-recorded -- for the outside classes he takes at least.  His public school classes are so easy he doesn't need to know but he will need to at some point and I realized he might struggle in an in person lecture)

3. Extended testing time 

4. Preferential seating 

5.  Assignments always written, not given verbally 

6.  Breaks when needed 

Thanks everyone for your input, it's helped me a lot! I will especially start thinking early about teaching to self advocate.  My oldest (adhd) never had any issues as she is VERY determined to get what she thinks she needs, and has no issues contacting any and all people concerned! Such different personalities. 

It seems like a lot to me since he has been coping and getting along well enough... but he does tend to be prone to meltdowns due to anxiety and having a safe place to go will be so helpful to him.  He might never need extended time, but he does make a lot of mistakes when he realizes how slow he's going and then he gets so anxious.  

 

I was clueless about what to ask for and the ladies here really helped me to clarify the accommodations I thought we would need for Sacha going forward. If you do a search, I am pretty sure that I posted all the accommodations that we put in his 504. If you cannot find it, let me know and I will dig out his 504 and paste it for you. I know how hard it is to anticipate what it is you are wanting when you are new to all of this. Then, I had to start all over again with the IEP process for services (for Ronen), which is a whole other animal, and the ladies here similarly came to my rescue. ❤️ 

Edited February 24, 2021 by SeaConquest

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

He might never need extended time, but he does make a lot of mistakes when he realizes how slow he's going and then he gets so anxious.  

Sorry, I whacked my head sledding and am not reading or replying completely. @KathyKuhl made really important points about not saying no to things too early. Her comments on the typing thing are spot on. My dd ended up doing SO many essay tests, so having the option to do them in a limited distraction environment with the extra time and TYPING was huge, huge, huge.

On the accommodations, they know how a kid with this profile rolls and it's just typical, a whole package. So let them put it all in so he has it there. The psych probably put recommendations in your private eval. 

I will also add that the thing I was told (by friends in education) was that the biggest problem is not the services the university is willing to offer but whether the students are willing to use them. So I decided to put my emphasis on getting dd to feel ok, normal, just, and cool, even EMPOWERED by using the services. It's something to think about. Once they are in a university, the school doesn't want to hear from you. The dc has to self advocate, so that's another hurdle. 

10 hours ago, KathyKuhl said:

I don’t know his age, but don’t be too quick rule out requesting the typing accommodation, because his workload will ramp up. I understand he doesn’t want to stand out, so now is probably time to help him come to terms with using accommodations. 

Just wanted to say I'm elated to see you here! I went to a convention talk of yours after I had just gotten some fresh evals on my ds, and your talk meant a lot to me. It was your it all went wrong, AND IT'S FINE talk.   A lot of things seem to go wrong with my ds or not turn out, and I think about that over and over, that way may not end up doing this or that as well as we hoped, our interventions may not all turn out like we hoped, and no matter what, it's still FINE. It has been a great solace to me. 

That was in Cincy btw at GHC. He was in a stroller, so maybe 6 years ago? It was also the year I met Kbutton. 

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

It seems like a lot to me since he has been coping and getting along well enough... but he does tend to be prone to meltdowns due to anxiety and having a safe place to go will be so helpful to him. 

It will be interesting to see how that changes with Interoception work. The goal is for him to know his strategies and do prevention work so he isn't melting down. But he has to find that for himself and he will with the interoception work. If he's in school, you can see if you can get the OT on board with this. Sometimes it's the SLP. Nuts, I even found a music therapist in one school who was engaged with interoception. A psych for the school might be. You never know who your ally could be in making that happen. You can bring it up and say hey he has issues with recognizing his emotions etc. etc. This is stuff they can be made to care about. See what tests they would need to get him qualified for interventions for it. Unfortunately, the interoception assessment is not yet standardized. Some OTs are *working* on it. Once that happens, I think we'll see a big shift in intervention because the ps want standardized data, sigh.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

accommodations that we put in his 504.

Also there are accommodations "banks" that op can google and find. I just never needed that. My school just cranks it all out. They add in things I say, but some things are pretty predictable.