Pros and Cons of math acceleration?

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No that’s just not how it works.  There is one Algebra 1 class, with one set of worksheets and slide shows and tests that is taught to every kid taking Algebra 1 in a middle school or high school in our county, unless they are taking the half speed version for kids expected to need more than 4 years of high school, or the magnet middle school version, which would depend on him winning the magnet lottery.

Whoa. Very standardized. Not in private schools, right? And you can’t skip it and get the credit some other way?

[ieta_cassiopeia]

How about something that uses arithmetic-level maths but also expands the uses of it, for now? A gentle introduction to logic/algorithms, statistics, maths puzzles, basic/conceptual accounting, programming, modelling, cross-curricular projects that require maths to complete and/or mathematical investigation would all expand your child's horizons and continue using at least some maths without giving the impression that maths is all about competing and pushing forward all the time. It might even give your child clarity about whether he prefers the maths or the competing (some athletes like to make everything a competition because that's how their instincts work - if that's the case, then one possible answer is to encourage self-competition combined with compassion towards both self and rivals).

Once the new maths offer has been provided for a few weeks (and not before, unless you child initiates the conversation), have a good chat with your child about the competitiveness situation. When your child has experienced this other side(s) of maths,

Next academic year doesn't start until August. You probably have a couple of months to see how whichever plan you choose for maths now works before having to pick one of the four options for next year. (Given COVID, and the question of why your child is pushing so hard in maths, this is a good thing).

If it turns out your child likes maths for its own sake, I'd opt to test for the private school, with the decision about whether the parish school or the public school being second choice resting on how they handle maths (alongside the non-maths considerations you already have. Go for the parish school if it's a tie, as you can probably transfer the child into big public school in 9th grade or earlier if it emerges that's a better option for the later stage of education).  If COVID-homeschooling, go ahead and go pre-Algebra followed by Algebra, mixed in with wider maths as and when it makes sense to you and is self-directed for your child. Encouraging passion is a good thing for an athlete, especially considering that enjoying maths expands the post-career options for professional athletes.

If it turns out your child just plain likes competition (without much care about the context of that competition), I'd forget the private school and get them into the parish school. The big public school probably would do more harm than good to an overcompetitive streak. If COVID-homeschooling, continue exploring different forms of maths while reinforcing pre-algebra (there are three Life of Fred books that cover different angles of pre-algebra, for example) and backfilling gaps when found, would be a reasonable course of action. Being a year "behind" one's ultimate mathematical potential is a worthwhile downside for learning this important lesson. (An especially important lesson for athletes - wasting energy competing in things that don't warrant competition is harmful to sporting performance).

[EKS]

13 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

just feel like if he’s probably going to start at Calc 1 in freshman year then I’m not sure what benefit he got from being on the calc in 10th vs 11th track.

The only benefits would be not holding a kid back who is clearly ready for more advanced work and the ability to take math classes that are outside of the normal high school sequence without having to add them on top of the regular math classes.  

I'm not sure either of these conditions are met in your son's case.  It sounds like he would need to push to be ready for Algebra I in the fall and that the school(s) he might attend may not be prepared to deal with a post BC calculus kid (do they even have BC calculus?).  I also wouldn't have him do Algebra I in school if that means he is going to miss instruction in other subjects.

Perhaps someone else has said this already, but it would be just fine for him to do Algebra I at home, if that is where he ends up next year, and then do it again in school.  My son also ended up repeating about a semester of precalculus (and it would have been more, but we put the brakes on math in early spring the year before when we decided to send him to school) when he entered 9th, and as it has been with calculus, it was not a bad thing.

Edited January 26, 2021 by EKS

[Drama Llama]

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Whoa. Very standardized. Not in private schools, right? And you can’t skip it and get the credit some other way?

The private high schools would be equally standardized although they might use a different text book or have a different project than the public schools, but they're following the same standards, and preparing kids for the same SATs and AP tests.   However, they'll have fewer choices less trajectories.  For example, private schools don't have options like double period Algebra 1 or 2 year Algebra 2 (something that's mostly reserved for kids who are new English speakers and/or have IEPs).   Private schools also tend to be either all IB or not IB, so there wouldn't be a choice there.   

The private schools also make their reputation based on college placement.  They certainly wouldn't allow a kid to do something like repeat a math class they did well in.  They also aren't going to give up control by letting a kid count a math class outside of the school, unless it was because the kid had exhausted the options at the school.

His little parish school would be different.  Partially because they're PS-8, so there's less pressure for college placement.  Partially, because he's known and loved there.  He's been there since he was 3.   The priest who oversees the school is the same one who married me, and baptized him, and said the funeral mass for his brother.  So, they might find a way to give us some flexibility.  But there's not a high school equivalent of that.  

[Clemsondana]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Whoa. Very standardized. Not in private schools, right? And you can’t skip it and get the credit some other way?

Even when it's not so specified that every school uses the same worksheets, textbook selection and scope-and-sequence for what can be counted as a particular class, especially one that can be a high school credit, is determined at the county or state level for public schools.  They may or may not actually do everything, or do extra, but often there isn't a lot of flexibility.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Clemsondana said:

Even when it's not so specified that every school uses the same worksheets, textbook selection and scope-and-sequence for what can be counted as a particular class, especially one that can be a high school credit, is determined at the county or state level for public schools.  They may or may not actually do everything, or do extra, but often there isn't a lot of flexibility.  

Interesting. I didn't realize that -- thanks for explaining. 

I guess if it were me, I'd try to do what my kid asked, but not in a way that puts them on a track they can't get off of. I don't know exactly what that would look like here, though. It's a hard problem. 

[Drama Llama]

5 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

How about something that uses arithmetic-level maths but also expands the uses of it, for now? A gentle introduction to logic/algorithms, statistics, maths puzzles, basic/conceptual accounting, programming, modelling, cross-curricular projects that require maths to complete and/or mathematical investigation would all expand your child's horizons and continue using at least some maths without giving the impression that maths is all about competing and pushing forward all the time. It might even give your child clarity about whether he prefers the maths or the competing (some athletes like to make everything a competition because that's how their instincts work - if that's the case, then one possible answer is to encourage self-competition combined with compassion towards both self and rivals).

Once the new maths offer has been provided for a few weeks (and not before, unless you child initiates the conversation), have a good chat with your child about the competitiveness situation. When your child has experienced this other side(s) of maths,

Next academic year doesn't start until August. You probably have a couple of months to see how whichever plan you choose for maths now works before having to pick one of the four options for next year. (Given COVID, and the question of why your child is pushing so hard in maths, this is a good thing).

Parish school application is in.  If they have space for him, and I think they'll find space, tuition deposit is due in a few weeks.  

The application for the public school magnet is due next week.  If we want to submit it, there's a registration process, and we'll need to get tests administered, scored, etc . . . 

Quote

If it turns out your child likes maths for its own sake, I'd opt to test for the private school, with the decision about whether the parish school or the public school being second choice resting on how they handle maths (alongside the non-maths considerations you already have. Go for the parish school if it's a tie, as you can probably transfer the child into big public school in 9th grade or earlier if it emerges that's a better option for the later stage of education).  If COVID-homeschooling, go ahead and go pre-Algebra followed by Algebra, mixed in with wider maths as and when it makes sense to you and is self-directed for your child. Encouraging passion is a good thing for an athlete, especially considering that enjoying maths expands the post-career options for professional athletes.

I think you have the options confused.  The private school and the parish school are the same.  There's no choice between private and parish.  The choices are between public and private/parish.  Within the public there's the option for the magnet track, but that's an application.  I'd put the odds at maybe 1/10, but that's a guess.  The magnet and local public have the same basic math tracks, but the magnet has more challenge in other places, such as computer science, and more interesting science.  The magnet would also have the advantage that he wouldn't have to get up early and travel to the high school to take Algebra 2 in 8th, since they offer it on campus.  

He'll go to public in 9th, unless something changes in our finances.  But privates in our area don't offer as much advanced math as public. 

Quote

If it turns out your child just plain likes competition (without much care about the context of that competition), I'd forget the private school and get them into the parish school. The big public school probably would do more harm than good to an overcompetitive streak. If COVID-homeschooling, continue exploring different forms of maths while reinforcing pre-algebra (there are three Life of Fred books that cover different angles of pre-algebra, for example) and backfilling gaps when found, would be a reasonable course of action. Being a year "behind" one's ultimate mathematical potential is a worthwhile downside for learning this important lesson. (An especially important lesson for athletes - wasting energy competing in things that don't warrant competition is harmful to sporting performance).

I already know the answer this.  He doesn't dislike math, but he doesn't particularly like it.  He likes the independence, and feeling like he's ahead, and there's a pandemic so he's bored.  He's also aware that his cousin is working towards this goal, and he wants to see if he can do it too. 

Since I stopped assigning math, and handed over control to him, he's moved much faster than I expected.  I'm not going to respond to that by stepping back in and taking control.  

[Clemsondana]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting. I didn't realize that -- thanks for explaining. 

I guess if it were me, I'd try to do what my kid asked, but not in a way that puts them on a track they can't get off of. I don't know exactly what that would look like here, though. It's a hard problem. 

I thought that might be the case for a few people because they kept recommending taking the class again, or multiple times.  It wouldn't be a similar class - it would most likely be an almost identical class - it's not the same as doing something with 2 different providers or texts.  What I worry could be different is how the course is graded and what teachers 'let slide' because they expect that the kids will grow into being more careful, and how sometimes that can make it hard to figure out missed concepts.  The teachers can't decide to go slower, cut material, etc.  The advanced math teachers will expect, and the curriculum will require, that the kids taking the class in 6th be as capable when they reach their classes as the students who took it in 8th or 9th and there won't be any special 'you took this when your brain was still young and you might not have incorporated it correctly' review.  It will work wonderfully for some students and put them ahead, but there will be students who move through years worth of classes without understanding because they didn't learn the early concepts well or didn't learn the organizational/study skills that they should have learned in those classes.

That's why I'd be all in for doing it as a homeschooler - we did a 1x/week algebra review during geometry, and kid has asked for a 1x/week geometry review while we finish algebra 2 so that it will be fresh for trig, but the only option for getting that as a public schooler is tutoring.  For some kids, early teaching is fine and it sticks, but for others an awful lot goes in one ear and out the other if it isn't used frequently.  A quick pre-A, followed by early A, and then a year off to do geometry could be great or it could create a mess when they get to the more advanced classes.  

[Not_a_Number]

45 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I already know the answer this.  He doesn't dislike math, but he doesn't particularly like it.  He likes the independence, and feeling like he's ahead, and there's a pandemic so he's bored.  He's also aware that his cousin is working towards this goal, and he wants to see if he can do it too. 

Actually, I don't know if you do know the answer to this. Kids can like different aspects of math. There are kids who don't like math until algebra or calculus. DH didn't like math much until high school, I think, and he's now a mathematician. Before, it was boring and easy. 

If you're the kind of kids who just like numbers or puzzles (I'm in the latter category), you'll know earlier than if you're someone who likes abstraction and sophisticated patterns. 

I'm not saying he definitely DOES like math. But he finds it easy and he doesn't hate it, which means he might turn out to like it. Or not. We'll see. 

[Not_a_Number]

46 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

For some kids, early teaching is fine and it sticks, but for others an awful lot goes in one ear and out the other if it isn't used frequently.  A quick pre-A, followed by early A, and then a year off to do geometry could be great or it could create a mess when they get to the more advanced classes.  

Yeah. This set up would give me pause, given that the only possibility will then be repeating the EXACT same class. Plus I don't think an exact copy of an algebra class usually taught to older kids is appropriate for 6th graders, anyway. 

I think in this situation, I would promise to teach him algebra after school or get him a tutor (after he finishes prealgebra), so that he feels like his wishes are being respected, but I'd also keep him in his usual math classes and see how that goes. I think trying this for a year would be clarifying. 

[GoodGrief3]

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

MIT requires all students to take Calculus 1 and 2 in their first year.

1) They can take the final exam and place out Calc 1 and calc 2

2) They can take the final exam and place out of Calc 1, and take calc 2 in the fall term

3) They can do an accelerated class in fall term: Calc1 for 4 weeks, and then Calc 2 for the rest of the fall term.

4) They can do the standard stream: Calc 1 in the fall term, Calc 2 in the spring term

5) They can do the stretch class: Calc 1 in the fall term and in January term (so an extra 4 weeks) and then Calc 2 in the spring term

The point is that even at MIT, a large percentage of the class still takes calculus and doesn't jump into multivariate. MIT knows that some kids have to take or retake calc, and some of them even need a stretch class. 

 

That's a really nice way of handling the varied math backgrounds.

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

That's a really nice way of handling the varied math backgrounds.

I agree. I was really surprised at the variety of options available.  There is also one more option I forgot to mention, there is the Experiemental Study Group which takes 55 students and has 9 faculty and 40 upperclassmen to help.  They take most of their classes together and they are small group experiences not big lecture halls.  It is basically a school within MIT that does things completely differently.  Thus the 'experiemental' part of the name.  So for them, Calculus is learned in a small group of say 10 or 12 with other students that you are taking all your classes with. 

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

That's a really nice way of handling the varied math backgrounds.

The main point I was trying to make from the point of view of this thread, is that even at MIT some students need major revision of Calculus. It is not a walk of shame. MIT knows it, and has laid out a plan to help all students get to where they need to be. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The main point I was trying to make from the point of view of this thread, is that even at MIT some students need major revision of Calculus. It is not a walk of shame. MIT knows it, and has laid out a plan to help all students get to where they need to be. 

Having taught at Stanford, most kids even at fancy colleges need calculus review.

[GoodGrief3]

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

At some point a kid has to learn how to do more than drill and kill.  You can use any program you want and beef it up, or explain it deeply.  But I think you know what I mean that some kids just learn algebra as a manipulation of numbers and letters with no idea how to use it or why to use it.  If you haven't seen this in you experience, you should meet the kids I tutor!

I do bring up my daughter's experience, because I think parents of gifted kids (in particular) tend to panic about math matters. And, really, my daughter never did get her programs beefed up. She was busy with sports, music, volunteering. The TT was fine, DO was fine, the University classes (and, really, our local U is essentially a community college) were fine. Math once she got to challenging classes at Princeton was not a problem.

Not saying this will work for all. I do have two other daughters who are technically gifted but not motivated in the same way. One, when asked if she would like to move from Math 6 to Prealgebra by her public school middle school teacher said, "Nah, I'm good." Exact quote, lol. She was my Beast Academy and Singapore kid when we were homeschooling (up to 5th grade). She just did not have the interest in the end but is competent enough. Junior now, and Covid homeschooling again with Derek Owens, getting A grades.

[GoodGrief3]

19 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I did speak to the principal of the private school.  She suggested just having him do PreA with the 7th graders or Algebra with the 8th graders, but then he’d miss whatever his class is doing then.  I am not sure that’s the answer.  She also didn’t say no to the idea of him doing a separate curriculum, just that she needs time to make a decision.

Admittedly I am an old mom on the point of burnout, lol, but this just sounds too complicated for me with a dubious gain at the end. If he was going to continue to homeschool, sure, go for it, kid! (Meaning he should go for it, not calling you a kid)

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Not saying this will work for all.

Yup. Really really depends on the kid.  I tutor math, and have seen a lot. Fascinating how the mind works.

[GoodGrief3]

19 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, I guess one question I have is, if he does calculus in 10th and then goes on to stats etc. . . What would freshman year in college be like if he hasn’t done calc for two years?  

 

In my daughter's case, she just did Calc AB in 10th, then Calc 2 and 3 at the university junior year. Stats (and Comp Sci, so technically math) during senior year. Freshman year Calc went fine, meaning, A grades and on the high end of the curve.

[GoodGrief3]

19 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

 

I'll also add that, while you can't predict the future, don't underestimate the amount of time that sports take as a kid gets older.  My kid plays one sport on the public school team and they condition or practice 4-5 days/week, 1-2.5 hrs/day, all school year.  Kid also plays another sport on a homeschool team and they practice or play a couple of days/week.  There are days that kid spends 5 hrs on sports, with one straight after school and the other in the evening.  I only mention it because you talked about your kid being athletic - it's something to consider when looking at taking really challenging classes all 4 years of high school.  

 

Excellent point. If a kid is very competitive in sports, it will become all consuming in the high school years. So many hours.

[GoodGrief3]

19 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The main point I was trying to make from the point of view of this thread, is that even at MIT some students need major revision of Calculus. It is not a walk of shame. MIT knows it, and has laid out a plan to help all students get to where they need to be. 

I understood. 🙂 I did enjoy hearing the specifics from MIT though.

[Gobblygook]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Excellent point. If a kid is very competitive in sports, it will become all consuming in the high school years. So many hours.

This is very true. My son is in basketball season right now, playing for his private school, and he has practice 2-3 hours a day, 6 days a week. He basically does school, homework, basketball and (not enough) sleep. During fall football season, it’s similar. He wants to play AAU basketball this spring, Covid permitting, so the dynamics will likely be similar, but with full weekend tournaments. He is an above average student (As and Bs) but doesn’t love academics. FWIW, as a 5th grader, he was much more academically-inclined but sometime between 6th-8th grade, he lost that academic orientation. I don’t know, maybe it was puberty brain. Not saying the same thing will happen with your DS, but I agree with others that it’s important to think about an off ramp if his goals change.