Prodigy as main curriculum 2nd and 4th grade

[drjuliadc]

I put my 9 and 8 year old into a tiny private school so they could be IN school this year. They have always gone to school except for spring semester last year. I just didn’t make them do the work at public school from home because it wasn’t appropriate for them. I gave them my own work. It was great for them. 

The private school is an interest led model and the kids can pick whatever math they want to use. My sons chose Prodigy. I know it doesn’t teach but my boys are both good at math and they get the answers correct in most topics right away.  The others they might get a percentage wrong but they figure it out on their own and get to mastery pretty quickly. They both had a really good Montessori math background for three years starting at ages 3 and 4

When Prodigy started asking long division questions my oldest asked me how to do it. I showed him a 5 minute Kahn academy video. He said he got it and went on to answer those questions correctly and completed Prodigy’s 4th grade curriculum not too long after that. That is the only thing either of them have asked me for help with this school year.

Has anyone looked at the topics that are covered? Are there a some holes? A few, a lot? If the kid answers the questions correctly, I am wondering if there are still some future downfalls of doing this. Is it possible they don’t need to be taught the math, that someone math inclined can just figure it out themselves?

This is the only school my 8 year old hasn’t tried hard to avoid going to. He tested the highest among 200 1st graders in the gifted testing last year in public school, so public school isn’t going to be a great fit for him until the gifted program starts in 3rd grade.

Edited December 24, 2020 by drjuliadc

[Not_a_Number]

I wouldn’t do it. But then I tend to think of arithmetic as preparation for higher math and I really would want to make sure kids are understanding everything.

Would your kids be able to explain why long division works?

[drjuliadc]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn’t do it. But then I tend to think of arithmetic as preparation for higher math and I really would want to make sure kids are understanding everything.

Would your kids be able to explain why long division works?

I don’t think so but neither can I. haha.  I will ask him.  Maybe I will learn something. I would much rather you teach them.  Double haha. I guess I’m in good company.

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

I don’t think so but neither can I. haha.  I will ask him.  Maybe I will learn something. I would much rather you teach them.  Double haha. I guess I’m in good company.

Let me know what he says!! 

Long division was the last algorithm we learned with DD8... it’s tricky! 

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Would your kids be able to explain why long division works?

When you ask questions like this, what level of abstraction are you looking for?

Spencer has mastered the long division algorithm, and I recently asked him to explain how long division worked to make sure he understood conceptually and not just procedurally.  He fell back on the concrete model that I had introduced it with: a cookie factory shipping out equal numbers of cookies to a number of stores.

So he explained it as first you figure out how many truck loads (1000 cookies) of cookies you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Then you unpack any extra trucks and combine those crates (100 cookies) with the others you need to ship out. Then you see how many crates you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Next you unpack any extra crates and combine those boxes (10 cookies) with the others you need to ship out. Then you see how many boxes you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Next you unpack any extra boxes and combine those individual cookies with the others you need to send out. Then you see how many cookies you can send to each store so they all get the same number.

Procedurally, he can parrot back the questions he needs to ask himself (I prefer kids to ask themselves questions rather than follow a rote list of steps):
1 - How many [given place value]s can I give to each evenly?
2 - How many [given place value]s did I give out total?
3 - How many [given place value]s do I have left?
4 - How can I break apart the remaining [given place value]s and combine them with the [next lower place value]s?

It feels like he has a firm understanding of the topic. He is able to use it and reason with it pretty dynamically even in situations that require more than simply following the algorithm - explaining why an answer must be incorrect if the "remainder" is larger than the divisor, being able to find a dividend if given the quotient, divisor and remainder, figuring out for himself how to write the remainder as a fractional portion of the quotient (he did this within the cookie model by realizing you could break each "remainder" cookie into enough pieces to send one to each store... he was then able to generalize that idea symbolically when using the algorithm), etc.

He's got it, right? Is that the level of understanding you are looking for at this stage of the game?

[cintinative]

Hmm. Well, we used Math in Focus (which is Singapore math) from grade 1 to 7th. I found that Prodigy didn't line up perfectly. We used Prodigy as a fun supplement. Sometimes Prodigy had stuff we didn't cover (I think some of it was common core, or was covered in a later semester or year with MIF).  Sometimes Prodigy didn't have things we did cover.  I honestly can't imagine using it as a core curriculum, especially as they get older and need to graduate to math textbooks. Prodigy only goes through middle school (7th???) if I recall correctly. It would have been ugly for my kids to switch from game-based math to pre-Algebra using a textbook.

I know that some school districts have learning objectives but do not provide or prescribe curriculum, but this still seems really strange to me. Maybe I am just out of the loop.

Edited December 25, 2020 by cintinative

[Not_a_Number]

25 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

When you ask questions like this, what level of abstraction are you looking for?

Spencer has mastered the long division algorithm, and I recently asked him to explain how long division worked to make sure he understood conceptually and not just procedurally.  He fell back on the concrete model that I had introduced it with: a cookie factory shipping out equal numbers of cookies to a number of stores.

So he explained it as first you figure out how many truck loads (1000 cookies) of cookies you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Then you unpack any extra trucks and combine those crates (100 cookies) with the others you need to ship out. Then you see how many crates you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Next you unpack any extra crates and combine those boxes (10 cookies) with the others you need to ship out. Then you see how many boxes you can send to each store so they each get the same number. Next you unpack any extra boxes and combine those individual cookies with the others you need to send out. Then you see how many cookies you can send to each store so they all get the same number.

Procedurally, he can parrot back the questions he needs to ask himself (I prefer kids to ask themselves questions rather than follow a rote list of steps):
1 - How many [given place value]s can I give to each evenly?
2 - How many [given place value]s did I give out total?
3 - How many [given place value]s do I have left?
4 - How can I break apart the remaining [given place value]s and combine them with the [next lower place value]s?

It feels like he has a firm understanding of the topic. He is able to use it and reason with it pretty dynamically even in situations that require more than simply following the algorithm - explaining why an answer must be incorrect if the "remainder" is larger than the divisor, being able to find a dividend if given the quotient, divisor and remainder, figuring out for himself how to write the remainder as a fractional portion of the quotient (he did this within the cookie model by realizing you could break each "remainder" cookie into enough pieces to send one to each store... he was then able to generalize that idea symbolically when using the algorithm), etc.

He's got it, right? Is that the level of understanding you are looking for at this stage of the game?

Yeah, that sounds perfect to me.

[lulalu]

We tried Prodigy for a short time. It really is just a game. I found that it didn't cover what I felt it should. In my opinion it really is best as a game to reinforce what you are learning for more practice. 

In my opinion (again mine you may disagree and turn out great math kids) kids need to be able to talk out math while learning. Either through conversation, pictures, manipulatives or whatever it is that works for that kid. Especially in elementary math topics. A great program or teacher will explain what is going on with the math they are learning. (Prodigy doesn't explain stuff at least what we did). Then once the talking it out part, they need practice with a variety of ways to use what they have learned. And I really think kids need some really hard multiple step problems to apply stuff to and real world application. 

Now, there are lots of great programs out there to choose from. MEP is free from the UK. If I were you that is what I would look at and try first. Year 1 in the UK is USA Kindergarten. 

There are many other programs too. MEP is free though. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, lulalu said:

In my opinion (again mine you may disagree and turn out great math kids) kids need to be able to talk out math while learning. Either through conversation, pictures, manipulatives or whatever it is that works for that kid.

I absolutely agree with this. It helps line up one’s thinking to explain it.

[drjuliadc]

9 hours ago, cintinative said:

I know that some school districts have learning objectives but do not provide or prescribe curriculum, but this still seems really strange to me. Maybe I am just out of the loop.

This is in a tiny private school. The public school didn’t adapt well to online very well last year when Covid started. I wanted them to be IN school, not do waste of time online school. I was happy with the gifted program in public school for my oldest, before Covid.

I was told by his gifted teacher that the public school won’t let them accelerate math even in the gifted program and long, drawn out arithmetic was the bane of my existence as a child. Other than that, I would probably send them both back to public next year, or whenever they can actually be IN school full time.

The owner of this tiny school accelerates all 5 of her kids in an unpushy way. For her older kids she unschooled them in elementary, used Kahn academy for math when they got to Algebra, used our community college for middle school, and three of them started our local university this year at ages 14 and 16 (twins).  The 16 year olds are majoring in engineering. All three got full ride scholarships, their SATs were so high. I know they used Kahn academy for SAT prep too.

Her two younger kids are in my children’s classes.

Those are some of the reasons I chose that school, beside the fact that the littles stay outside for three hours a day if they want to.

[drjuliadc]

Wendyroo, thank you for typing out that awesome description. I always love your posts. It is amazing what you do and the high level you teach, considering some of the challenges you face. I feel like I could explain why long division works now.

I would rather you taught my kids too.  I think you are too busy though.

[drjuliadc]

6 hours ago, lulalu said:

In my opinion (again mine you may disagree and turn out great math kids) kids need to be able to talk out math while learning. Either through conversation, pictures, manipulatives or whatever it is that works for that kid. Especially in elementary math topics. A great program or teacher will explain what is going on with the math they are learning. (Prodigy doesn't explain stuff at least what we did). Then once the talking it out part, they need practice with a variety of ways to use what they have learned. And I really think kids need some really hard multiple step problems to apply stuff to and real world application. 

Now, there are lots of great programs out there to choose from. MEP is free from the UK. If I were you that is what I would look at and try first. Year 1 in the UK is USA Kindergarten. 

There are many other programs too. MEP is free though. 

I wouldn’t disagree because I don’t have an opinion.  I’ve never taught anyone math.  All we did for math last Spring semester was drill math facts, which I think was a good use of time for those few months.

Yes, prodigy still doesn’t explain stuff. It just occurred to me that they have to be understanding it to be answering all the questions right. My oldest couldn’t answer the long division questions so I showed him that and then he did.  I am really not sure if I am right in this. Hence the question. How are they getting the answers right if they don’t get it?

The idea of kids needing to be able to talk out math seems like a good idea. It just sort of “rings true.” Not that I knew that before you and not_a_number agreed upon it here.

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, drjuliadc said:

How are they getting the answers right if they don’t get it?

I’d have to see the questions they are doing. But smart kids can absolutely memorize algorithms without understanding how they work at all.

[drjuliadc]

On 12/24/2020 at 2:01 PM, cintinative said:

 It have been ugly for my kids to switch from game-based math to pre-Algebra using a textbook.

I have definitely been afraid of this. Mostly with my computer obsessed 8 year old. They have only been doing Prodigy as their MAIN math for 1 semester. They have been playing prodigy for years though.

Edited December 26, 2020 by drjuliadc

[kiwik]

I used progigy as my main programme for a year.  He was working all over the place so I set it a a particular grade.  When he hit a part he couldn't we stopped and worked on that topic until he did, then he kept on until the next problem area.  It helped us fill in holes and even things out a bit.

[drjuliadc]

Update: When I looked at my second grader’s progress on Prodigy, I learned that he answered 456 questions the week before Christmas. They only go to school for three days. I really, really, really like Prodigy’s progress reporting. When they returned to school in January, there was a computer glitch one day, so their teacher gave them Saxon worksheets instead.  All the kids decided they liked the worksheets better. That really shocked me.  I guess if you answer 456 questions in three days, you might even get burnt out on Prodigy. They have been happily doing Saxon ever since. So much for me being worried about transitioning away from gamey math.

Their teacher tested my oldest with Saxon’s tests and said the same thing I noticed, He’s done with 4th grade math and if he doesn’t know something, she gives him one quick explanation and he goes on and answers all the questions right on it.

She wasn’t sure how accurate Prodigy was at saying a student was “done” with 4th grade math either, but we both feel better about him flying through the Saxon testing. She said she thought he would be done with 5th grade math by June and ready for prealgebra. This school is year round. This lady is not pushy. She just believes in going at an individual’s own pace.

This all made me happier with the situation. I wasn’t really unhappy, just unsure.

Edited February 10, 2021 by drjuliadc

[Masers]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:02 PM, drjuliadc said:

This is in a tiny private school. The public school didn’t adapt well to online very well last year when Covid started. I wanted them to be IN school, not do waste of time online school. I was happy with the gifted program in public school for my oldest, before Covid.

I was told by his gifted teacher that the public school won’t let them accelerate math even in the gifted program and long, drawn out arithmetic was the bane of my existence as a child. Other than that, I would probably send them both back to public next year, or whenever they can actually be IN school full time.

The owner of this tiny school accelerates all 5 of her kids in an unpushy way. For her older kids she unschooled them in elementary, used Kahn academy for math when they got to Algebra, used our community college for middle school, and three of them started our local university this year at ages 14 and 16 (twins).  The 16 year olds are majoring in engineering. All three got full ride scholarships, their SATs were so high. I know they used Kahn academy for SAT prep too.

Her two younger kids are in my children’s classes.

Those are some of the reasons I chose that school, beside the fact that the littles stay outside for three hours a day if they want to.

That school sounds amazing! I want my kids to go there!

[drjuliadc]

It is an Acton Academy. They are nationwide. My kids only go 3 days a week. I am supposed to be doing something with them one of the other days. I am not that great at that. I bow down before homeschool moms. Haha. We are driving to Florida today. Geography. Well, I guess they are watching a Rock n Learn Fractions and decimals dvd.

I would probably prefer a classical school. There is one here but it is 25 minutes away and the Acton Academy is 4 minutes away. That would be me driving two hours a day.

[Masers]

1 hour ago, drjuliadc said:

It is an Acton Academy. They are nationwide. My kids only go 3 days a week. I am supposed to be doing something with them one of the other days. I am not that great at that. I bow down before homeschool moms. Haha. We are driving to Florida today. Geography. Well, I guess they are watching a Rock n Learn Fractions and decimals dvd.

I would probably prefer a classical school. There is one here but it is 25 minutes away and the Acton Academy is 4 minutes away. That would be me driving two hours a day.

Oh, very cool. We have nothing great around us. 😞