Ideas for a reluctant writer (seventh grade)

[naturegirl]

My son was an early reader and has always done well with math. He loves reading about and watching videos on science and history. Overall he is a bright kid who is interested in learning. The one area he has always been "behind" in is writing. I put behind in quotes because normally I'm not really concerned about ahead or behind, because I figure it will all even out in the end. Anything we don't cover while homeschooling that he needs to know if life, he can learn when it comes up. My goal, though I'm not always successful at it, is for us to enjoy learning together. 

But he is in seventh grade now and through a couple recent conversations I realize that he is behind where my fourth grade nephew is in writing. As the years pass and his writing isn't getting much better I'm starting to worry. His current goal for after he finishes high school is to go to college to study computer science or computer engineering. Right now he is not on track writing wise to succeed in college. I know it's still a ways off, but I want to get this turned around fairly soon so he isn't playing catch up when he gets to college.

So far he has hated every writing program we tried. We have Brave Writer, Essentials in Writing, Writing with Skill, Institute for Excellence in Writing, and a few others I'm probably forgetting. On the one had I could just pick one and force him to do it. But with every other subject, he actually wants to learn it. He may have days where he doesn't want to do school work, but for the most part he enjoys what he is studying. Everything except writing. And I'm afraid if I just force him to do it I will kill any chance that he will ever enjoy writing. He finds all the curricula we have tried boring or tedious and just resists my every effort to get him to do them. 

My son is on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum and has ADHD. Writing has always been hard for him, so I let him type instead of write by hand a lot of the time. And I have found with a lot of skills, things that other kids did at a certain age, he just did later - he was late to talk and potty train. He didn't learn to tie his shoes until he was about 10. It's only within the last year or two that his drawings have evolved beyond stick figures. And honestly I had to learn awhile ago to just leave some things until later, because he would just learn them when he was ready. 

But he is in the seventh grade now and I would say his writing is about the level of a second or third grader. And I fear that if we don't get on this soon, it may impact what he wants to do in life. 

So, if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I am happy to try a new curriculum if there is a better fit out there. I am willing to put together my own if people have some suggestions. I am actually thinking of hiring a writing tutor, though now is not the ideal time with the pandemic going on. He doesn't really like online classes. He does pretty well with grammar and his spelling is better than mine. It's really just the writing I need help with. Any ideas at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to anyone who read to the end and has suggestions to offer!

[Not_a_Number]

I will say that you only need a limit to what you can write as a CS major 😉 . 

Have you brainstormed with him about what he'd like to write about? In what way is he behind a 4th grader in his writing? 

My 3rd grader is currently doing all of her writing in the context of math: she's writing math proofs. This is letting us work on organizing her thoughts, writing in paragraphs, introducing topics, thinking about what the reader knows, and all sorts of fun stuff. Is this the sort of thing that your son might be willing to write about? Or maybe he could write something about the history or science he's learning about? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[naturegirl]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I will say that you only need a limit to what you can write as a CS major 😉 . 

Have you brainstormed with him about what he'd like to write about? In what way is he behind a 4th grader in his writing? 

My 3rd grader is currently doing all of her writing in the context of math: she's writing math proofs. This is letting us work on organizing her thoughts, writing in paragraphs, introducing topics, thinking about what the reader knows, and all sorts of fun stuff. Is this the sort of thing that your son might be willing to write about? Or maybe he could write something about the history or science he's learning about? 

Your third grader is writing in a more coherent fashion than my seventh grader does. I do like your idea of finding what he is interested in and writing about that. I have tried that, but I think I give up to easily, because it's such a struggle. I've had him pick a historical figure to write about. I've had him do a report on cats, which are his favorite thing on the planet. Sometimes he can write about anything he wants. The thing is, I'm just not seeing much improvement. And I don't know how to help him.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, naturegirl said:

Your third grader is writing in a more coherent fashion than my seventh grader does. I do like your idea of finding what he is interested in and writing about that. I have tried that, but I think I give up to easily, because it's such a struggle. I've had him pick a historical figure to write about. I've had him do a report on cats, which are his favorite thing on the planet. Sometimes he can write about anything he wants. The thing is, I'm just not seeing much improvement. And I don't know how to help him.

I wonder if something VERY structured and that doesn't require an opinion would help? That's why I'm suggesting math. Or computer science, since he likes it. Have him explain how a program he wrote works. You can use literally anything to have practice organizing your thoughts, thinking about what your reader knows, and writing in paragraphs. 

How was his report on cats? My problem with that assignment would be is that I would guess it'd be all over the place. It's hard to have a good thesis for that piece, you know? It's easier when there's a definite goal. But the problem with definite goals from writing programs is that they can feel very boring, artificial and uninspiring. 

Is he able to make a logical argument out loud? Does he like debating anything? 

Basically, I'd try to work with him to figure out how to tackle the problem 🙂 . We've gone through a variety of phases with DD8; I imagine we'll move on to something else next. (Our last project was reading a book about viruses, then taking notes on it. Her task was to phrase things in her own words. That was a good exercise, too.) 

I'd also be patient. As you say, he isn't a typically developing kid, so comparing him to other kids is probably not helpful. And he has MANY years to go before college. So I'd take baby steps (and that includes finding something, anything he wants to write about) as progress. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

As one last possibly cheering anecdote: my sister graduated from high school a year ago, and I'd spent years reading over her papers. Her writing was... not great. Her arguments weren't clear, her wording was intentionally opaque, and the structure of her writing was totally random. 

We wound up only fixing her writing towards the end of her senior year! And the way we did it was by telling her to ignore everything she learned in high school. I told her to write as if she were actually talking or texting her ideas to me, to get everything down on the page, then to clean it up during the editing phase. 

So... my most successful experience teaching someone to write involves teaching a high school senior to forget everything she learned 😉. Sometimes, something just has to click. Writing is, at the end of the day, simply a method of communication. So whenever you're learning to communicate, you're really learning to write, even if you can't use those skills in writing just yet. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[naturegirl]

47 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As one last possibly cheering anecdote: my sister graduated from high school a year ago, and I'd spent years reading over her papers. Her writing was... not great. Her arguments weren't clear, her wording was intentionally opaque, and the structure of her writing was totally random. 

We wound up only fixing her writing towards the end of her senior year! And the way we did it was by telling her to ignore everything she learned in high school. I told her to write as if she were actually talking or texting her ideas to me, to get everything down on the page, then to clean it up during the editing phase. 

So... my most successful experience teaching someone to write involves teaching a high school senior to forget everything she learned 😉. Sometimes, something just has to click. Writing is, at the end of the day, simply a method of communication. So whenever you're learning to communicate, you're really learning to write, even if you can't use those skills in writing just yet. 

This is actually really good to hear. Like I said, so many things have come late to him, that I've really not been pushing writing. But the last thing I want to do is hinder his chances in life due to inaction on my part. I do think I have a few years still to work on his writing. But I don't want to put it off too long.

[naturegirl]

30 minutes ago, Enigma6 said:

I have been using Writing Skills by Diana Hanbury King with my 3 middle schoolers. I only use the teacher's manual and we do things on the white board. I, too , have a high functioning guy, so I know what you mean about digging in and all that. This method works for him. It starts by having the child just make lists like things that go on a sandwich, colors in the rainbow, car types...pick anything and have the child try for 5-10 things. Once that is comfortable (a couple weeks), move on to taking 3 ideas and turning them into sentences. Sandwich fillings- cheese, ham, pickles. Then add a simple topic and concluding sentence: 

"Many fillings can go into a sandwich. First, cheese of many kinds makes a delicious bite. Second, ham adds protein. Last, pickles add that satisfying crunch. Sandwich fillings are limitless."

You don't need to add FNTL words, but mine find them useful. Write MANY of these then start to ask for just one more idea for each point. What kind of cheese? Why ham? What kind of pickles? Eventually, each basic sentence will become its own paragraph.

Writing Skills also has 4 workbooks that walk through this process. Each contains quite a bit of grammar but you could skip those bits. There are no answer keys because the answers are pretty much obvious or 'answers will vary' types. By the time Book 3 wraps up, the child is writing a solid essay, albeit a formulaic one. Not all kids are going to love to write, but at least knowing a formula to write to pass those upper classes will help them not panic over the assignments.

Adding: Below is what I write on the board. I don't have them use complete sentences

Topic: Sandwich

T.S.: Many fillings go into

D.S. 1: First, cheese delicous

D.S. 2: Second, ham protein

D.S. 3: Last, pickles crunch

C.S.: fillings limitless

HTH.

https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/literacy/grammar-writing/writing-skills-2nd-edition/about-the-program

Thank you! I will check this writing program out. It helps to know it works for you kiddo with high functioning autism. 

[kiwik]

Ds11 is using Lantern Writing.  I am finding it much easier to insist on work being done that is set by someone else.  

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, naturegirl said:

This is actually really good to hear. Like I said, so many things have come late to him, that I've really not been pushing writing. But the last thing I want to do is hinder his chances in life due to inaction on my part. I do think I have a few years still to work on his writing. But I don't want to put it off too long.

I'd just treat it at something that's a long term project 🙂 . And do think of improvements in all sorts of communication as progress. 

[naturegirl]

6 hours ago, kiwik said:

Ds11 is using Lantern Writing.  I am finding it much easier to insist on work being done that is set by someone else.  

Thanks for the recommendation!

[naturegirl]

1 hour ago, Amoret said:

This book, 12 Assignments Every Middle School Student Should Write, has a lot of good ideas. It is short, but offers guidance for both the teacher and the student, and covers a variety of different genres.

Thanks, I will take a look at it!

[freesia]

I don't know how closely you work with him, but I have found that heavily scaffolding works well here.  With your son, I would work on paragraphs daily.  I would sit with him and fill out a graphic organizer for/with him (you do the filling out first).  Use a mind map, or a key word outline.  Then brainstorm a topic sentence for his paragraph and then have him write it up (on the computer is fine).  Do it Monday- Weds.  Thursday have him chose one paragraph and then together edit it for mechanics, add a strong verb, add some sentence variety.  Read it aloud and make any additions or changes for clarity. (Do all this together.) That day he can just edit and rewrite.  Friday he can do a 10 minute freewrite (topics online at Bravewriter).  No editing that day.

You can get fancy and when you write a descriptive paragraph brainstorm senses, with narrative have him number the graphic organizer, with pursuasive have him order the points in order of importance.

Slowly, have him take over more of the writing/thinking/asking to fill in the graphic organizer--but slooowwwllyyy.

You can pull topics from his other subjects or areas of interest. 

[freesia]

Oh, also, with my boys I honestly have found that I have to eventually ignored their protests of hating a subject.  Otherwise I tie myself in knots.  I, too, have gone through lots of curricula and creative ideas.  There is nothing wrong with that, and we should be responsive.  But ultimately, they don't have to love to write.  Mostly, I've discovered what my ds's mean is, "It is hard to think hard and I don't want to do that work."  Writing requires a lot of originality which can be hard.  The joy will come later when it is fluid (although all authors have blocks.)  Complaining about it and having us run around trying to fix it is also a way of having us be responsible for the hard part.  It's better to stay calm, be a big support, sympathize that yes you know they don't like it and may never like it, but that's okay they can do it it.  Of course they can do things they don't want to do and you are there to help.

Starting at the end of eighth grade I do start outsourcing (Lantern is great--but he may not be ready).  They do tend to produce better work at that age for someone else.

[Familia]

Our experience, which may not help you since ds became a rabid IEW fan:

At that age, our previously well-written son turned cold on the subject.  Blank paper...tears!  It was very unexpected.  I purchased IEW student B videos (changed name), and he soared.  He was so happy that he no longer had to, in his words, ‘figure out what to write’.  IEW, which I do see that you have tried, turned writing into a very logical, mathematical even, process.  One he could do alone, with me only doing very minimal writing.  The only teacher-part of the IEW program that I used was the advice that mom become editor/not critic.  I ONLY marked his paper based on the rubric for the assignment, leaving content itself alone, as they suggest.

That is how his growing up brain was functioning, needing explicit instructions and wanting minimal interaction from me about writing.  He said all through high school, where he used IEW on his own (we just couldn’t do it together), that he was so relieved not having to be creative and had a process to follow.  Now, he is still quite the math thinking person, but hopes to write a book someday.  I cannot believe when he, as an adult, recently said that he really enjoys writing!

[Familia]

1 minute ago, Familia said:

Our experience, which may not help you since ds became a rabid IEW fan:

At that age, our previously well-written son turned cold on the subject.  Blank paper...tears!  It was very unexpected.  I purchased IEW student B videos (changed name), and he soared.  He was so happy that he no longer had to, in his words, ‘figure out what to write’.  IEW, which I do see that you have tried, turned writing into a very logical, mathematical even, process.  One he could do alone, with me only doing very minimal writing.  The only teacher-part of the IEW program that I used was the advice that mom become editor/not critic.  I ONLY marked his paper based on the rubric for the assignment, leaving content itself alone, as they suggest.

That is how his growing up brain was functioning, needing explicit instructions and wanting minimal interaction from me about writing.  He said all through high school, where he used IEW on his own (we just couldn’t do it together), that he was so relieved not having to be creative and had a process to follow.  Now, he is still quite the math thinking person, but hopes to write a book someday.  I cannot believe when he, as a grad school student, recently said that he really enjoys writing!

 

[kristin0713]

We use and have had huge success with Lantern English, but their second quarter just started.  You would need to wait at this point until the third quarter to start.  My DS is also a reluctant writer and in 7th grade.  Last spring I had him take The Paragraph.  This year I started him with The Composition which he finished up beautifully and he is now starting The Summary.  These classes are in the 3-6 grade level.

For now, what I would focus on is having him write a solid paragraph on one topic at a time.  If you are interested in the Lantern classes, I would work on paragraphs until January and then start him with Composition.  

[kristin0713]

By the way, the traditional Lantern classes are not really "online", they are correspondence.  The lessons are emailed out once a week and students have one week to complete the assignments.  Then they are graded with feedback and returned the next day.   I always go over the lesson with my DS while my 9th grader usually reads hers independently.  This year, Lantern started a new live class format for some classes, but we have not tried those. 

[PeterPan]

On 11/1/2020 at 9:19 PM, naturegirl said:

Writing has always been hard for him, so I let him type instead of write by hand a lot of the time. And I have found with a lot of skills, things that other kids did at a certain age, he just did later

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  What you might do is look at the charts here for development of narrative language and see where he is. The fiction and nonfiction stages connect, so look very carefully. Each has things that need to be in place (syntax, social thinking, etc.) for the stage to occur.

On 11/1/2020 at 9:19 PM, naturegirl said:

It's only within the last year or two that his drawings have evolved beyond stick figures.

Has he had an OT eval? OTs will have them draw themselves, because the drawings are a quick capture of *what parts of themselves the dc is aware of*. So think about that. If his self-awareness is not developed, the emotional awareness is not there, which hinders the development of narrative language. (See the charts I linked above.)

So ironically, working on Interoception https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  could be pivotal in getting his narrative language to go forward.

I also would not *assume* there are no language issues present. Sometimes they are difficult to tease out. The person to do that for you would be an SLP who specializes in this. It's *uncommon* to find one who does narrative language testing and knows about language issues in autism, but you could shop around and see what you can find. There are specific tests you'd be looking for (test of narrative language, test of problem solving, OWLs=oral written language), etc. 

You'd like to sort out whether it's EF (executive function) issues holding back his comfort with writing (so things like working memory, ability to hold his thoughts and organize, etc.) or whether it's something deeper like the narrative language deficits.

On 11/1/2020 at 9:19 PM, naturegirl said:

He finds all the curricula we have tried boring or tedious and just resists my every effort to get him to do them. 

This is so spectrumy and I agree with the others that it's a pit. You can do some things like co-writing, where you write together. He may need to work on his flexibility. He may need to try doing the same writing task MORE WAYS. Instead of doing it less, do it more, making it more interesting. You wrote it that way, now could you change the tense? Could you change the audience? It's also ok to modify and get assignments at least to connect to secondary interests.

However, just in general, I would get some testing and see *why* he's having the trouble. If you've done all those usual things (modifying, making it more interesting, etc.) then maybe there's a reason. I agree with you that the issue will continue to follow him into college. We made things work in our homeschooling, but writing is basically a disability for dd with her college work. You will not regret getting good private evals by an SLP and digging in on what is going on. I wouldn't even bother with the tutor till you get the evals, because you're just going to lose time that could have spent in better intervention with better guidance on what the issue is.

[kiwik]

On 11/5/2020 at 8:24 AM, kristin0713 said:

By the way, the traditional Lantern classes are not really "online", they are correspondence.  The lessons are emailed out once a week and students have one week to complete the assignments.  Then they are graded with feedback and returned the next day.   I always go over the lesson with my DS while my 9th grader usually reads hers independently.  This year, Lantern started a new live class format for some classes, but we have not tried those. 

I find it a good format.  It is flexible enough to fit round life but rigid enough that you have to do it.