Dual enrollment converts student from freshmen to transfer?

[mysticmomma]

My oldest is a sophomore this year. She would like to take some classes at the community college. She does have medical school as a consideration in her career path, but isn’t interested in an Ivy League school. I am wondering if anyone encountered a situation in which financial aid or something else was altered because your college freshmen had dual enrollment credits. 

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, mysticmomma said:

My oldest is a sophomore this year. She would like to take some classes at the community college. She does have medical school as a consideration in her career path, but isn’t interested in an Ivy League school. I am wondering if anyone encountered a situation in which financial aid or something else was altered because your college freshmen had dual enrollment credits. 

Usually you can choose.  I think there are some colleges that have some kind of a credit limit to be considered a freshman, but many don't.  I know quite a large number of people who have done DE up to and past AA credit levels and still gone to 4-year schools as freshmen and eligible for freshman scholarships.

One of my dds who did DE went as a freshman, the other intentionally transferred as a junior to the state flagship after getting her AA, because that way she got things like guaranteed acceptance to both the school and her major (a competitive one), and she didn't have to have perfect grades and got out of having ever to take the SATs.  Depends on your student and their goals which way to go.

But make sure you over-communicate with both the CC and the intended 4-year; there are sometimes caveats and hoops to both paths that are not obvious.  My friend whose kids did the freshman route had to make sure the high school graduation date was within a certain short window either before (or after? can't remember which) of the CC graduation or they would have forfeited freshman status.  And for my transfer dd, I had to graduate her a semester early, as her last semester at CC before graduation had to be as a full-time college student, not DE, or she wouldn't have qualified for the benefits of the guaranteed transfer program.  Neither of these hoops were obvious or advertised, as they're so far outside the 'norm' no one thinks to even mention them... have to ask the right questions!

[mysticmomma]

8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Usually you can choose.  I think there are some colleges that have some kind of a credit limit to be considered a freshman, but many don't.  I know quite a large number of people who have done DE up to and past AA credit levels and still gone to 4-year schools as freshmen and eligible for freshman scholarships.

One of my dds who did DE went as a freshman, the other intentionally transferred as a junior to the state flagship after getting her AA, because that way she got things like guaranteed acceptance to both the school and her major (a competitive one), and she didn't have to have perfect grades and got out of having ever to take the SATs.  Depends on your student and their goals which way to go.

But make sure you over-communicate with both the CC and the intended 4-year; there are sometimes caveats and hoops to both paths that are not obvious.  My friend whose kids did the freshman route had to make sure the high school graduation date was within a certain short window either before (or after? can't remember which) of the CC graduation or they would have forfeited freshman status.  And for my transfer dd, I had to graduate her a semester early, as her last semester at CC before graduation had to be as a full-time college student, not DE, or she wouldn't have qualified for the benefits of the guaranteed transfer program.  Neither of these hoops were obvious or advertised, as they're so far outside the 'norm' no one thinks to even mention them... have to ask the right questions!

Thank you for this! I guess I should have her start poking around state colleges to see if she gets a spark so we can be a little more specific. 

[Lori D.]

It really depends on the policies of the 4-year university. Some accept unlimited dual enrollment credits (up through earning an AA degree), and still grant freshman eligibility. Some limit it to 60 credits, 36 credits, 24 credits, or even as few as 12 credits -- at which point the student is considered a transfer student rather than an incoming freshman. 

Why freshman status is so important is that is where the bulk of scholarships are awarded -- to incoming freshmen. Those are the scholarships with the largest $$ value, and they tend to be "renewable" -- good for more than one year. In contrast, there are far fewer scholarships given to transfer students, and transfer student scholarships tend to be for much smaller amounts, and tend to be 1-time awards (not renewable).

Another consideration is transferability of credits. Not all 4-year schools will accept all community college (CC) credits as counting towards the future degree. Some credits may only be accepted as "electives" which do not count at all towards the degree, and some credits may not even be accepted in transfer. So looking into the articulation agreement between the CC and the future 4-year university is a good idea.

Another option might be CLEP testing (self-study, test, and earn college credit) -- again, look at the policy for total accepted credits (counted as dual enrollment credits + credits from AP tests + credits from CLEP tests), and also check which *specific* CLEP tests are accepted by the 4-year university. If interested in the CLEP path, check out Modern States, which offers study/prep materials, AND reimburses you for the cost of the tests.

One last thing to check in to -- some 4-year universities do NOT want students going into their medical degree programs to take some of the science/medical courses (like Chemistry, Anatomy/Physiology, etc.) through CCs, but want the students to take the science/medical courses for the degree through the 4-year university. So look at the future university's policy about acceptance of those types of credits if planning on a nursing, physician, or other medical degree.

A final thing to check on: if planning dual enrollment to knock out some courses in advance and thereby reduce overall time spent earning a degree... For some medical, engineering, and architecture degrees, this ends up not being possible, as some schools schedule courses such that specific courses are only offered once per year--and those courses are the pre-requisites to the next level of courses. The upshot is that with this type of scheduling, there is no way to speed up and complete the degree in less than 4 years.

BEST of luck as you plan for the last half of high school and look ahead to college! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

Seconding all the above advice. If it's truly "dual" enrollment, then it absolutely should not affect her ability to apply as a freshman almost anywhere but always double check, especially for your particular state university system.

Just to add to Lori's warning about credits transferring... obviously getting college credit is not the only reason to take a course at CC. Sometimes, you just want a good quality course. And even if your dd is not "ivy league" bound, she may be looking at competitive schools where they won't take many of those credits, but the credits will still look good on her record. So the goal can be to take CC classes to get into a good school, but not to cover specific requirements.

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Seconding all the above advice. If it's truly "dual" enrollment, then it absolutely should not affect her ability to apply as a freshman almost anywhere but always double check, especially for your particular state university system.

Just to add to Lori's warning about credits transferring... obviously getting college credit is not the only reason to take a course at CC. Sometimes, you just want a good quality course. And even if your dd is not "ivy league" bound, she may be looking at competitive schools where they won't take many of those credits, but the credits will still look good on her record. So the goal can be to take CC classes to get into a good school, but not to cover specific requirements.

I'll agree with credits not being the only reason to take a CC course.  My youngest dd started early and did take general requirements because she really didn't want to work with me anymore, and she also tried and didn't like the high school.  But she really blossomed when she started to take courses to explore her interests.  She found out she loved graphic design, and was about 1/2-way to an AA in that when she realized she didn't want to do it for a living (real-life customers are a total drag on creativity...) so she took a hard left and ended up with a Business AS and is going into Accounting...  She hated the 'required' school classes so much; if she'd just been able to take those, she'd've been miserable.  But once she could pick classes based on interest, things were great.  And having 1 semester CC = 1 year of high school credit got those 'regular' classes out of the way and gave her time to pick lots of other classes based on interest.

[mom31257]

I don't have time to read all the responses. My dd's college policy was that DE didn't affect freshman status AS LONG AS the courses were taken and finished before the high school graduation date. 

Dd didn't transfer any essential classes, just core type credits. She became a tutor for microbiology, and the professor told her that students who were struggling were those who transferred in sciences from community and online colleges that weren't rigorous enough. 

So I would advise her to only take basic core, not those essential to her field at her chosen 4 year school. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by mom31257

[Guest]

We have, so far, found only one school that would automatically consider DD a transfer (and that particular school encouraged her to apply as a transfer about 2 years ago, pointing out that as a transfer, her high school transcript wouldn't matter). All the others consider her a freshman for admissions/scholarship purposes, and then will evaluate her college credits after admission. She has a lot of redundant credits due to using college credits for meeting high school requirements-you have to have math and English each year of high school, not each year of college, and she started taking core academics at the college level in 8th grade. There are some classes that we have chosen NOT to have her take at the college because they are foundational to her major, and others we expect her to take again-so, for example, she has taken the "applied calculus" sequence at the local college, with the expectation that she will take the STEM majors Calculus sequence wherever she ends up next year.  I'm only expecting maybe half her classes to count, at best, but it has still been a good option for her for high school. 

[8filltheheart]

Agree with others that freshman eligibility would not be my main concern.  The 2 issues I see for a pre-med student DEing are 

1. grades-DE grades will follow a student forever.  If not making an A is a concern, I would hesitate DEing since GPA is going to matter.
2. courses being accepted by med school admissions.  I would investigate this issue yourself to verify its veracity.  I have read it matters, but I have not first hand knowledge that it is still a truth.  (Things change over time.)

Another option if you live near a 4 yr U is to pursue DE there instead of at a CC.  I have had a student take close to 50 cr hrs at local U's.  It was a way for him to take core in-major classes that would transfer into most U's depts. (Only a handful of U's restrict transfer credits to a very small #.)  We researched schools to find matches that would allow him to take grad level courses as an undergrad since he entered needing sr level courses by 2nd semester freshman yr.  

You could also research bs-md programs and see if they address transfer credits.  basic bs-md program info  another  One of my college sr's closest friends just started med school.  She is part of USC (Columbia)'s BARSC MD program https://www.sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/honors_college/study/prepare_for_professions/pre-med/honors_college_barscmd.php  Admissions to the program is competitive (so even if DE courses wouldn't be accepted for the program, they might make a student more competitive for admissions into the program.)  These are the types of questions worth investigating.