Analysis Paralysis! Guidance please...

[KelseyS]

I would love to get some input from you wonderful experienced homeschoolers!  I feel as though the more I research, the more confused I get.  I know that no decisions are final and homeschooling will always be a work in progress, but the approach to high school is a bit overwhelming.  (To be honest, I started worrying when I saw a recommended schedule of classes that had kids starting Algebra 1 in 7th grade.)  I could really use some guidance and insight into how you make your decisions.  And specific curriculum recommendations are always welcome!  I've been reading these forums and Cathy Duffy's recommendations, but there's just so much information!

Background:  This will be our second year of homeschooling.  We have two daughters, entering 6th and 8th grade.  They spent all of their elementary years at a private Montessori/Renzuli school that was a wonderful fit for both.  There was a great deal of independence, fun, and projects, but it was not academically rigorous.  We spent the last year focused on catching their math up to speed and trying to find our footing.  Both girls were tested by their school and fall on the lower end of the gifted spectrum.  They learn very quickly and require little "instruction" from me.  They are voracious book readers and as of last year, were tested as reading at a college level.  They are independent, but the similarities stop there!  

DD13 is a complete self-starter and very driven.  She's been talking about college for several years already.  She's interested in astrophysics and engineering as future careers.  She is extremely ordered, organized and a very linear, concrete thinker.  I mean, this kid has written up a daily summer schedule and feels badly when she's not being productive - lol!  And she has to do every problem in math, in order, no skipping around.  We tried AoPS briefly and it didn't go well.  She's completed Saxon 7/6 and 8/7 this year and it's been a great fit for the way she thinks.  She enjoyed Story of the World, supported with some extra reading.  I thought Michael Clay Thompson would be a great fit for language arts, but it was too abstract for her.  We dabbled in Focus On Science which she disliked because of the busy work and distracting formatting.  We began WriteShop 1 towards the end of the year and like it so far.  So, here we are trying to make decisions for next year!  Saxon Algebra 1 is our only decision so far.  WriteShop - probably.  Grammar - no idea!  Is there a Grammar curriculum that gives them everything they need to learn succinctly?  I'm very drawn to the classical education model, but I was an English major and love all things language.  She sees no reason to study Latin, and is starting to teach herself Japanese.  I read a review of the Veritas Omnibus class and it sounded perfect in many ways.  She's already read some of the heavier literary works and loves to think deeply.  Then I came across some negative reviews which led me to start looking for similar classes elsewhere.  I'd love to find something that pulls together history and literature, and makes sense of geography and historical timelines.  My husband likes Novare best of all the science options, but I've read that it's dry and difficult to teach at home.  Of all the available online classical Christian classes, how do you decide which to go with?  Do you stick with one company?  Or take the classes that are the best fit?  Which subject have you found to be the most beneficial in a live class setting?  My greatest concern for this daughter is helping her be adequately prepared for college - she talks a lot about MIT.  

DD10 (August birthday, so a very young 6th grader) is very bright, not terrribly motivated to do schoolwork, but loves to learn!  She's an intuitive learner and understands concepts very easily.  When she's supposed to be completing a math lesson, I'll frequently find her curled up with a book or coming up with a new Lego creation.  She's very much a kid still and likes to play imaginatively.  She's very kinesthetic and loves to be on the move.  She thought Saxon 6/5 was boring torture (her words, not mine!), but enjoyed reading advanced books about math and doing logic puzzles.  I may try AoPS pre-algebra.  Other options?  She enjoyed Story of the World, but it's hard to get her interested in reading books that aren't fantasy!  Focus on Science was not fun for her either.  She can handle meatier text, but still needs the concepts presented in a way that she can understand.  And she wants to do projects and experiments.  I know she's learning no matter what we do, but it's so much more challenging to quantify that learning when she dislikes plodding through traditional texts.  I'd also like for her to have an online class of some kind.  Both of my kiddos are introverted and if there is anything they struggle with, it's taking the big thoughts that are in their heads and sharing them with others.

So, that's a ton of information I've shared, but I would so appreciate any insights in helping us along in this journey!  Every little bit helps.  Many thanks!

          

           

  

 

[8filltheheart]

Well, take these thoughts for what they are worth.  My approach to homeschooling does not involve online courses for younger kids.  I also don't use prepackaged curriculum for most things.  I have a ds who is a 3rd yr grad student in cosmology at Berkeley (though I think he is considering changing focus to nuclear physics instead).  

Physics requires an incredibly strong math foundation.  I personally would not use Saxon math.  Saxon and AoPS are only 2 math programs on the math spectrum.  I would look at some other math programs like perhaps Jacobs, FOersters, or Dolciani.   Science does not need to be a formal science textbook program in 7th grade.  Nor does history.  YOu could have her explore science topics in depth that she is interested in researching.  She could read whole books/science articles, watch documentaries, write reports/create booklets on the topics, etc.

Your 10 yr old could read through stacks of books.   Create projects based on her reading. The options are endless---writing books, building models, PP, writing poems, whatever...... Here is a Lego Comedy of Errors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76XmHpDhrtI !  🙂 You might look at Hands On Equations Verbal Book for pre-alg type word problems to supplement whatever you decide on using.  (My 10 yr old is completing MUS's alg/geo books as pre-alg/pre-geo.  She is my 8th child to take this approach.  I haven't been very creative in looking for another pre-alg program bc it has worked well for us.  It is the only MUS we ever use.  We use Foersters for alg.)

FWIW, my physics geek loved watching space documentaries when he was younger.  His first formal science class ever was physics in 8th grade.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart
Thanks Susan for pointing out the missing NOT. Big difference!

[KelseyS]

8FillTheHeart - Thank you so much for your input!  Can I ask why you don't recommend Saxon math?  And have you found a middle to high school math curriculum that you would follow all the way through?  I'd like to avoid jumping from one curriculum to another.  I love the thought of pulling together a variety of resources, but I do worry about my own ability to make sure they're learning all that they need to!  

[8filltheheart]

Saxon math is very incremental and repetitive.  (My kids would wholeheartedly agree with your younger dd.  Saxon math would drive them crazy.) I can't speak to how well it develops students for thinking theoretically.  AoPS is heavy theory with fewer applied math problems.  Since you said your dd didn't do well with it, my thoughts were along the lines that she probably isn't used to thinking that way.  There are other math programs that encourage both.  

I'm not sure what you mean by middle to high school math.  If your kids are pre-alg up, most alg textbook writers don't also write geometry books, etc.  My kids have all used Foersters for alg 1 and alg 2.  One used his precal book.  Some used Jacobs geometry.  Others have used Alexanders. Most have used either Sullivan or Larsen pre-cal and/or cal.  A couple have used Thinkwell cal.  My physics geek completed alg 1,2, and geo prior to finishing 8th grade.  He jumped into AoPS at their intermediate mathbook level and took their pre-cal and cal courses.  Anyway, that is a long way of saying that sequencing in elementary math books can be all over the place, but switching amg the better known textbooks at the high school level really shouldn't be that much of an issue.

In terms of pulling things together yourself, what do you think they will be miss if you don't use a textbook or a prepackaged curriculum?  High school sciences start at the beginning.  All science before that is exposure level science, not prerequisite.  History leaves a wide open path as to what to study.  My kids have never relied on a history textbook in my 26 yrs of homeschooling.  We sometimes use a textbook loosely to introduce some topics and then heavily rely on whole books (biographies, autobiographies, non-fiction books) on develop the bigger picture/concepts.

Just remember that traditional classrooms definitely don't have all the answers on how to teach content to a high level.  If that is what you want to use, definitely do!  But, don't choose to go that direction out of fear. 🙂

[Miss Tick]

55 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My approach to homeschooling does involve online courses for younger kids.

8, I know you are missing a "not" in this statement.

OP have you perused the "What is your __th grader going to study?" threads? There is a huge variety out there.  You may want to repeat your post with more focus, maybe a post for each, or even a post for each subject for each over a few days.

We can't use Saxon here, but a lot of people use it just fine. You are right to be cautious about hopping curricula, but high school math is often taught as discrete years, so that may be less of a concern after pre-álgebra.

Rarely do people on this board stick with one provider for anything.

Look at curriculum that the teacher is going to be able to teach and from which the student will be able to learn. So if your DH is teaching science he should get a lot of say in which program is used.

 

[KelseyS]

That's helpful Susan.  I'll try to focus my questions.  I know my post is all over the place!  Like my mind these days apparently. : )  

[Lori D.]

Welcome! I see by your post count you are new, and it looks like you are new to starting to think about planning for high school!

You may wish to post specific questions about planning for high school on the High School and Self Education Board, and specific questions about planning for the middle school grades on the Logic and Middle Grade Challenges Board.

4 hours ago, KelseyS said:

... I could really use some guidance and insight into how you make your decisions...

Specifically for deciding on what materials to use for a subject, I always took into consideration:

- the student's learning style (how the student best take in info (visually, auditorially, hands-on), and process that info (whole-to-parts/parts-to-whole? random/sequential?))
- the student's needs (advanced/gifted? remedial? special need? needs a faster or slower pace?)
- my goals for the subject, and how well does the material help me accomplish those goals
- my teaching style/needs (if it was a subject I was weak in, was their enough teacher support so I could teach it; ex: solutions manual, video lessons, etc.)
- how easily can I "tweak" the material (I had one DS with mild LDs, so I was constantly having to adjust/adapt material)

From your post, you have a very clear, specific answers to those questions, so it will more be a matter of reading reviews, reading samples, and posting a number of threads about specific subject areas -- for example, using your description from above:

"What math for rising 6th grade DD who is: very bright, not terrribly motivated to do schoolwork, but loves to learn!  She's an intuitive learner and understands concepts very easily.  When she's supposed to be completing a math lesson, I'll frequently find her curled up with a book or coming up with a new Lego creation...  She's very kinesthetic and loves to be on the move.  She thought Saxon 6/5 was boring torture (her words, not mine!), but enjoyed reading advanced books about math and doing logic puzzles."
 

4 hours ago, KelseyS said:

DD13...
... She's been talking about college for several years already.  She's interested in astrophysics and engineering as future careers...
... My greatest concern for this daughter is helping her be adequately prepared for college - she talks a lot about MIT...

Over the next year, you will want to start reading the "Motherlode" threads pinned at the top of the High School Board -- "High School Motherlode #1" links a ton of very helpful past threads on resources and planning for homeschooling high school.

I would be very careful about helping DD expand her thinking about not JUST MIT as a possible future college -- together, look at some of the astrophysics and engineering programs at other top schools. Otherwise, there is potential for very big disappointment ahead. Working hard and being advanced is NO guarantee of getting into a top tier/competitive school -- MIT has an acceptance rate of 7.2% -- that means out of every 100 very bright, advanced students (just as bright/advanced as your DD, if not more so) who apply, only about 7 get accepted. That's why you want to encourage looking at the programs at multiple colleges, and apply to multiple colleges that the student would fit well with.

To be prepared for college (and a tough field of engineering), for 8th grade, you'll want to focus on getting very solid in the foundations to be ready for high school -- so very solid in math, writing, and science this year in 8th grade. In high school you'll want a solid set of credits -- the "4 x 5 plan" is a great, overall plan -- 4 credits (years) in each of the 5 academic subject areas of English, Math, Science, Social Studies, and Foreign Language. Plus you'll need to plan for 1 credit of Fine Arts, and 4-8 credits of Electives -- some of those Electives can be Engineering-based. 

Also as prep for Engineering, throughout the next years, be looking for materials that encourage problem solving, and possible extracurricular activities and opportunities to do Engineering projects -- Robotics team, summer STEM program, etc.
 

4 hours ago, KelseyS said:

DD13...
... math... We tried AoPS briefly and it didn't go well.  She's completed Saxon 7/6 and 8/7 this year and it's been a great fit for the way she thinks....
... Is there a Grammar curriculum that gives them everything they need to learn succinctly? ...
... I'd love to find something that pulls together history and literature, and makes sense of geography and historical timelines...

Math
Not a big fan of Saxon, as some students just memorize formulas and "plug and chug" through solving, rather than actually making math connections and understanding the *why* behind the algorithms. But, if the student really clicks with Saxon, then go for it. If heading towards an Engineering field, then definitely you'll want to use something that encourages a lot of problem-solving -- it is too bad about AoPS not fitting, but other possibilities might be:
- Chalkdust (video lessons)
- Foerster (which has the Math Without Borders video support)
- Dolciani
- Derek Owens gets high reviews on these boards, if you want to go with an online class.

Grammar
- Analytical Grammar sounds like it would fit what you're looking for.
- Fix It Grammar may also work, if just wanting Grammar to work closely with Writing (as Fix-It is from the IEW (Institute for Excellence in Writing people)

Integrated History + Literature
- Tapestry of Grace -- chronological history, 4 years, each year has 4 levels: lower elementary: gr. K-3; upper elementary: gr. 3-6; didactic: gr. 6-9; rhetoric: gr. 9-12
- Roman Roads Media -- classical (4 years: Greeks, Romans, Christendom, Early Modern -- no Modern); videos + texts; also offers online classes
- Well-Trained Mind Academy -- classical online classes
- Wilson Hill Academy -- classical online classes

Also, you might consider pulling together your own History/Geography/Literature, using a variety of resources. A number of people on these boards do this, all the way through high school, and have fantastic discussions and depth this way. Just a thought!

 

4 hours ago, KelseyS said:

...DD10...
... She thought Saxon 6/5 was boring torture... but enjoyed reading advanced books about math and doing logic puzzles.  I may try AoPS pre-algebra.  Other options?
... she wants to do projects and experiments...
... I'd also like for her to have an online class of some kind.  Both of my kiddos are introverted and if there is anything they struggle with, it's taking the big thoughts that are in their heads and sharing them with others.

re: math
For math, you might look at Math Mammoth, if AoPS Pre-Algebra is not the best fit for her. Also, ideas for "fun math":

Fun "units" or supplements:
- Life of Fred -- gr. 4-6 topics; gr. 6-8 topics
- Jousting Armadillos
- Hands On Geometry (Freeman)
- Patty Paper Geometry (Serra)
- TOPS units: Metric Measuring; Graphing; Probability
- Challenge Math (Zoccaro)
- Real World Math (Clemson)
- Fascinating Fibonnaccis (Seymour)
- Secrets of Mental Math (Benjamin)
- Calculus By and For Young People (Coen) -- free pdf; explorations, so good for gr. 1-8, as students will tackle the topics each at their own level of knowledge

Books for fun:
- Number Devil (Enzensberger)
- Adventures of Penrose the Mathematical Cat (Pappas)
- Fractals, Googles and Other Mathematical Tales (Pappas)
- Geogbra

re: Science
For Science hands-on, she might enjoy some of the TOPS units; some units are better than others. Be sure to get the supply kit to go with it, as it is a pain to find all the supplies on your own. For a program, she might like:
- Nancy Larson level 5
- Exploration Education
- Ellen McHenry -- individual shorter units

re: online classes
Esp. since she's a young 6th grader, I personally would not push to do an online class, unless it's just a topic for fun (i.e., not formal academics). She is still quite young, and obviously enjoys informal learning -- don't kill the joy of discovery for her by trying to get to formal too soon. Enjoy exploring! For 6th grade, as long as she is continuing to move forward and stay solid in Math and Writing, with some Spelling and Grammar thrown in there, everything else can be frosting on top!


You might also want to check out the planning threads for grades 6 and 8 to get an idea of other options. (Find the current and past threads for your specific grades in this pinned thread:  "The Big Grade Planning Link List".

BEST of luck as you plan, and have a GREAT middle school homeschooling year! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Lori D.

[KelseyS]

Lori D - Thank you for your incredibly thorough reply.  That gives me so much food for thought.  And I really appreciate you directing me to specific threads.  There is so much to read and I was becoming even more confused - lol!  Regarding MIT - I honestly think that may be a passing fancy and appealing just because went to Boston last year.  She also talks about wanting to stay closer to home for college, so I think she'll make some good choices of schools at all different levels of acceptance.  She's prone to perfectionism and anxiety, so I'd like to see her make some choices that will provide her a good balance in life - learning/fun/leisure time!  I think Saxon appeals to her because it's very comfortable and doesn't challenge her.  She's not used to things being difficult.  As far as my younger, I absolutely agree that keeping it fun and engaging will be key.  I need to remember how young she is!

I'm anxious to explore all the information everyone has shared.  Thank you so much!  

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, KelseyS said:

... She's prone to perfectionism and anxiety, so I'd like to see her make some choices that will provide her a good balance in life - learning/fun/leisure time!  I think Saxon appeals to her because it's very comfortable and doesn't challenge her.  She's not used to things being difficult...

Perhaps the "spine" (main) Math program could stay in her comfort zone, but then once a week, together the two of you could do some out-of-the-box math-y supplement, to help her relax about math and perfectionism -- this is "fun math" or "play math" with no worries about getting it right or wrong -- it's about experimenting and discovering. Perhaps try something on that list of Math things I listed above. Maybe check out the Life of Fred 3 different pre-algebra units for fun -- using units of material that she just finished last year would be great review, plus give her confidence in problem-solving, since she just did pre-algebra. 😉 

Side note: a HUGE part of Engineering things is learning from what FAILS. Perhaps see if you can get some kits for her to do in a relaxed non-academic way (in her free time?) that would allow her the opportunity to experiment and try things -- and fail -- so she can see firsthand that the way to succeed is to try a lot of things that didn't work. Exploring (and failing) is how you stumble on new ways of making things work.

Possible ways to do that:
- Make K'Nex contraptions, and "Rube Goldstein" types of contraptions.
- Have fun fooling around with some tinkering challenges, or Vivify engineering challenges, or other online middle school experimenting/designing challenges
- Play around with "experimenting" games like Mine Craft or Rollercoaster building game and World of Goo and Kerbal Space Program
- Do a regular "egg drop" challenge -- try to come up with a device that will either cushion, or slow the rate of fall (or both) of a raw egg in your device when dropped from a high place (like the back of a high school football bleachers -- by doing this regularly, she might relax, realizing she has lots of opportunities to do it and try lots of different ideas -- some won't work, but that's okay, because other ideas will work.
- Read a biography about Thomas Edison -- who said about the many, many, many trials it took to make the lightbulb: "I have NOT failed. I have just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Watch the Disney Imagineering series -- one of the engineers specifically says that the way they innovate and move forward is through failing a lot and through trial and error.
- Once the pandemic is done, join a youth Robotics or Engineering team or club or program, so she doesn't feel like "it's all on her" -- together the team problem-solves, discarding ideas as they find they aren't working.

For the anxiety:
- learn some deep breathing and relaxation techniques (example: slow breathe in to a count of 7, hold it and tense every muscle in the body for a count of 7, then a final count of 7 breath out all the air slowly and completely while relaxing all the muscles)
- regular (daily) aerobic exercise, like brisk walking for 40 minutes; also using many body muscles till tired  (swimming laps is esp. good -- requires regular, rhythmic deep breathing and is muscle-tiring)
- nutrition: a good fish oil supplement; a B-complex supplement
- sleep: if she's not getting good regular sleep: black out curtains, a white noise generator, and possibly melatonin
- together, read through What to Do When You Worry Too Much

 

Wishing you and your DDs all the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Lori D.

[PeterPan]

On 7/10/2020 at 12:03 PM, KelseyS said:

Is there a Grammar curriculum that gives them everything they need to learn succinctly?  I'm very drawn to the classical education model, but I was an English major and love all things language.  She sees no reason to study Latin, and is starting to teach herself Japanese.

Sounds like something straightforward like Abeka would be a good fit. They have a junior high/high school sequence and you could just get in it and stay put. Don't do the whole thing. I think I had my dd do say 3 exercises from each task. The Japanese sounds great, so definitely facilitate that!!

On 7/10/2020 at 12:03 PM, KelseyS said:

She's interested in astrophysics and engineering as future careers.

Kids are so all over the board. On the one hand, she really might do that. But we have people who study art passionately all through high school and then go become engineers or lawyers. My dd sewed costumes and who knows what she's doing now, lol. I can tell you we *have* people on the boards who've sent kids, multiple kids, to Ivy League and this high tier schools. A lot of times the kids are winning national level contests, doing volunteer work, or otherwise somehow *interesting*. So just your piece of advice is let her be interesting and do the things she wants to do. Facilitate those things.

And yes I agree on the suggestion not to get too pigeon holed. MIT is fine, but there are kids who pass it over for Purdue or other schools. Fit is important.

On 7/10/2020 at 4:46 PM, KelseyS said:

She's prone to perfectionism and anxiety, so I'd like to see her make some choices that will provide her a good balance in life - learning/fun/leisure time!

Lori gave you lots of great links and ideas. I'll just 2nd the suggestion to make this a focus with games, cognitive strategies, mindfulness, whatever it takes. A very competitive world can be brutal for slower processing kids who need time to let things come out. She's going to have to know herself and know what she needs and be pretty confident about that. Unfortunately, sometimes a homeschool environment doesn't quite show the issues, because the kids are not performing relative to their peers. You'll want to push her out of her comfort zone. I never read this book https://www.professorcarol.com/why-freshmen-fail/  but I did go to Dr. Reynolds convention talk where she talked about this. She STRONGLY advised that we push our kids out of their comfort zones. It's something to think about.

On 7/10/2020 at 12:03 PM, KelseyS said:

My husband likes Novare best of all the science options

If he wants to teach it, he can pick what he wants. 

On 7/10/2020 at 12:03 PM, KelseyS said:

She thought Saxon 6/5 was boring torture (her words, not mine!), but enjoyed reading advanced books about math and doing logic puzzles.

Ooo, sounds like she'd do well with almost any normal/traditional math program. If she's ready for the AOPS pre-algebra, fine. And whatever you do, I like Lori's suggestion to take one day a week for enrichments. I do a lot of that kind of hands on, fun math stuff with my ds. Didax has a series of books for dice games for advanced math. I did one for fractions last year that was enjoyable. I'm doing a Math Mysteries book with my ds. She's at a great age for anything living math. She can read some for herself too, doubtless. My ds is gifted with SLDs, so I usually do things with him. But my dd read living math books for herself at that age, sure. Just google and get lists. A Gebra Named Al, that kind of thing.

On 7/10/2020 at 12:03 PM, KelseyS said:

Do you stick with one company?  Or take the classes that are the best fit?  Which subject have you found to be the most beneficial in a live class setting?  

I think bright dc are the most at risk in homeschooled shared education settings, because they tend to be taught by people with very little readiness to teach at multiple levels and engage them. If you find something specifically labeled for gifted, you might do better. However you might just wait and begin DE (dual enrolling) when they're ready and be done with it. They'll probably be ready sooner than you think, maybe academically ready before they're really emotionally ready, lol.

Welcome to the boards btw. 

[Momto6inIN]

We did Video Text for Algebra I, II, and Geometry. It is very conceptual and a great foundation before going with a different provider for Precalc. It starts off very gently but goes deep and both my extreme math lover and my normal math kids did well with it.

I also suggest you look at Analytical Grammar. It is very straightforward and easy to use and once you're done with it, your kids know grammar backwards and forwards.

I also 2nd what others have said that I don't do online classes except maaaaybe every once in a while in high school. Definitely not for younger kids.

It sounds like you know your kids very well and are extremely tuned in to their strengths and weaknesses - that will serve you well as you make your decisions! 🙂