Elizabeth - some questions about syllabary

[ktgrok]

So, I'm interested in trying this with one or both of my children. I don't really want to use the videos, for various reason, but just use the actual Websters Speller. But I want to be sure I'm pronouncing things correctly. I found your vowel chart, consonant chart, etc. But am I missing somewhere I can find a pronunciation guide to the syllables? Most seem self explanatory but for instance "mu". Is that pronounced like the word "moo" like the sound a cow makes, or is it pronounced like "mew" as in the sound a kitten makes?

I'm sure I'll find something else so if there is an easy guide I'd love to know!

Edited to add: ok, I found Don Potter's retyped version which is very helpful! Will use that, not the original. But still not sure on some. Like, this part "ce, ci and cy are pronounced se, si, sy."

Ok, so se = see, si = sigh, by what is sy? 

never mind - found this video. but now I'm wondering about the word "baby". Wouldn't that be the syllables "ba" and "by"? Will I get in the later tables the use of y as the long E sound at the end of words? As I have a Molly I'll be teaching I know that will come up 🙂

 

 

Do your videos cover this?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ktgrok

[HomeAgain]

Don't the lines over the vowels mean they say their name, and the ones without make short sounds unless otherwise modified (like with a dot)?

ETA: Sorry, just musing here before coffee.  I would have guessed ce, ci, cy was seh, see, sigh.

And now I think it's se (cell) , sih (city), see (icy)

Edited November 14, 2019 by HomeAgain

[Rosie_0801]

sy = si = sigh because a y will do whatever an i does coz it's a copycat! Att the end of a word, they'll revert to a short i sound. Just lazy I guess. 😛
(Except they'll do that within a word sometimes, and I don't know what the rule for that is, so hopefully @ElizabethB will come tell us.)

How you pronounce mu depends on your accent. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

Don't the lines over the vowels mean they say their name, and the ones without make short sounds unless otherwise modified (like with a dot)?

ETA: Sorry, just musing here before coffee.  I would have guessed ce, ci, cy was seh, see, sigh.

And now I think it's se (cell) , sih (city), see (icy)

 

35 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

sy = si = sigh because a y will do whatever an i does coz it's a copycat! Att the end of a word, they'll revert to a short i sound. Just lazy I guess. 😛
(Except they'll do that within a word sometimes, and I don't know what the rule for that is, so hopefully @ElizabethB will come tell us.)

How you pronounce mu depends on your accent. 

Rosie, that's a good explanation! Of course, it is all those copycat letters that drive my poor dyslexic daughter nuts. We joke that it might be faster to learn Spanish and spell in that language and move to Mexico, since Spanish is so much more phonetically simple, than to learn to spell in English. 

And Home Again I found the video of him reading them and it is ce=see, ci= sigh, cy = sigh. 

They are all open syllables so long, they just put the marking on the first word in the patter in the tables. 

[ElizabethB]

I have a transcript, too, in my syllables program that explains it.  You can teach from the transcript if you don't want to use the videos.

From the transcript: 

"Unaccented syllables are often mushed to the schwa sound of uh. This is especially common at the end of words. However, e’s often mush to short i: rur-al fill-et (pronounced rurul and fillit)

When the last syllable is accented, the sounds will not schwa: com-pel, la-ment(accented syllables underlined)

The letter u is already a relaxed sound, so it is already mushed! The letter i usually holds its sound, or at least some of its sound. The letters o and a are most likely to “mush” to a schwa uh sound. (as noted above, e’s will generally mush to a short i if they schwa, especially at the end)

At the end of a word, the letter y will have its normal long i sound when it is accented, but will have a long e sound in an unaccented syllable (accented syllables underlined):

de-ny, mis-ap-ply; cru-el-ty" (underlined in transcript, p. 20)

Transcript link:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/SyllablesSpellSuccessTranscript.pdf

[ElizabethB]

5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Rosie, that's a good explanation! Of course, it is all those copycat letters that drive my poor dyslexic daughter nuts. We joke that it might be faster to learn Spanish and spell in that language and move to Mexico, since Spanish is so much more phonetically simple, than to learn to spell in English. 

And Home Again I found the video of him reading them and it is ce=see, ci= sigh, cy = sigh. 

They are all open syllables so long, they just put the marking on the first word in the patter in the tables. 

Also in the transcript, I show how I use hints to help teach these, you learn them first with an S over them, then erase the S.  With the sca, sce, sci.. syllables, I put a K over the hard c's and an S over the soft C's, go over it a few times, then erase the hints.  If they miss a syllable, you go back to the syllabary, for example in table 26, if your student says tigger instead of tiger, go back to the syllabary and do the entire t syllables, ta te ti to tu ty, then point at ti and do ti, then go back to table 26 and point at ti, then read the word tiger.  You also over-learn the syllables in and out of order, I like to do them both randomly and contrasting (mi, im; ba, ab, etc.). 

I don't really like Webster's treatment of monosyllables, I'd use Abecedarian or Phonics Pathways for 1 syllable words and just Webster's syllabary and 2+ syllable word tables.)

[domestic_engineer]

17 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

I have a transcript, too, in my syllables program that explains it.  You can teach from the transcript if you don't want to use the videos.

From the transcript: 

"Unaccented syllables are often mushed to the schwa sound of uh. This is especially common at the end of words. However, e’s often mush to short i: rur-al fill-et (pronounced rurul and fillit)

When the last syllable is accented, the sounds will not schwa: com-pel, la-ment(accented syllables underlined)

The letter u is already a relaxed sound, so it is already mushed! The letter i usually holds its sound, or at least some of its sound. The letters o and a are most likely to “mush” to a schwa uh sound. (as noted above, e’s will generally mush to a short i if they schwa, especially at the end)

At the end of a word, the letter y will have its normal long i sound when it is accented, but will have a long e sound in an unaccented syllable (accented syllables underlined):

de-ny, mis-ap-ply; cru-el-ty" (underlined in transcript, p. 20)

Transcript link:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/SyllablesSpellSuccessTranscript.pdf

I really appreciated (and used) the transcript.  Thanks for offering it!

[ElizabethB]

1 minute ago, domestic_engineer said:

I really appreciated (and used) the transcript.  Thanks for offering it!

You're welcome!  I'm personally actually not a huge fan of video, ironically, and would prefer a transcript myself.  Also, I wanted one for people in areas with poor internet connection or teachers that want to use the material at their own pace--there is a public school middle school English teacher using it with her students a few minutes a day, many of her students are several grade levels behind and guess from balanced literacy multi-cuing teaching.

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

You're welcome!  I'm personally actually not a huge fan of video, ironically, and would prefer a transcript myself.  Also, I wanted one for people in areas with poor internet connection or teachers that want to use the material at their own pace--there is a public school middle school English teacher using it with her students a few minutes a day, many of her students are several grade levels behind and guess from balanced literacy multi-cuing teaching.

I'll definitely check it out! DD tends to freeze up and panic when it is video, afraid she'll miss something and not be able to find it again. Mainly that it will go too fast, etc. And she needs a lot of cheerleading so doing it together is best. 

I'm mainly intrigued by the syllables thing for her spelling - she's reading quite well now. But spelling...ugh. And this seems like maybe a more streamlines, efficient method than AAS which we are currently using.