Puppy-food allergies-raw diet-vitamins-help

[Nemom]

Excuse the improperly used hyphens please. 😁

We have a six month old puppy—mini Australian Shepherd. He was struggling when he came home with diarrhea, itching, and anxiety among other things. Trips to the vet showed nothing wrong. Short story-I narrowed it down to his having food allergies/intolerances. Removed his kibble,started white rice and sweet potato, and his diarrhea stopped within 24 hours. I have seventeen years of human food allergy experience and food trials so I applied that knowledge to the puppy. He is currently eating lamb, rice, and sweet potato. He has failed egg, peas, carrots, and peanut butter is questionable. We also highly suspect chicken, wheat, barley, sorghum, and oats. I am cooking the foods he can eat.

Now that we have the diarrhea under control, I need to find a daily vitamin or something to give him. He does great with the food but the minute he is let outside, he starts eating dirt–a classic sign of not getting the right nutrients. I have talked with our vet. All she does is recommend Hills Science Diet sensitive diet. It has ingredients that the puppy is allergic to and that we suspect he is allergic to. So it won't work. 

I had found a canned dog food with lamb and sweet potato only and I thought it was working. The dirt eating stopped but after three weeks the explosive diarrhea returned. Stopped the canned food and everything is fine again.

i am back to trying to find a vitamin to give him. All dog vitamins have some sort of chicken, beef, peas... I need to find a powder or human vitamin that I can supplement with.  

Anyone else have puppies/dogs with lots of allergies? Have you found anything that you can give them for the extra vitamins and nutrients? 

Need all the help I can get. ☺️ Thanks.

[ktgrok]

First, are you positive the diarrhea corresponds with the food change and not say, eating bird poop found in the grass, or other bizarre things puppies do? Also it highly unusual for a dog to be allergic to that many different ingredients, especially things like carrots, etc. I'm wondering if this is more an IBD type thing than an allergy? Have you tried probiotics? Testing for pancreatic insufficiency? 

For calcium you can get a seaweed based formula - no meat/chicken. Available on amazon. You can also contact a veterinary nutritionist for help creating a homemade food - there are some services on the internet or through veterinary schools. 

Finally, maybe something like Natural Balance, I seem to remember they have a lamb and rice formula, and a duck and potato formula that are designed for food allergic dogs. Other things to supplement are E, D, and I want to say zinc...if you get a book on homemade dog food you will get amounts. 

[Nemom]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

First, are you positive the diarrhea corresponds with the food change and not say, eating bird poop found in the grass, or other bizarre things puppies do? Also it highly unusual for a dog to be allergic to that many different ingredients, especially things like carrots, etc. I'm wondering if this is more an IBD type thing than an allergy? Have you tried probiotics? Testing for pancreatic insufficiency? 

For calcium you can get a seaweed based formula - no meat/chicken. Available on amazon. You can also contact a veterinary nutritionist for help creating a homemade food - there are some services on the internet or through veterinary schools. 

Finally, maybe something like Natural Balance, I seem to remember they have a lamb and rice formula, and a duck and potato formula that are designed for food allergic dogs. Other things to supplement are E, D, and I want to say zinc...if you get a book on homemade dog food you will get amounts. 

 

Natural Balance is the canned food we were trialing. And yes, I am positive that it corresponds with food changes. Whatever he is eating while outside, he is eating during the periods of no diarrhea. The carrots, peas, and eggs all cause him to vomit. It is possible that it is something other than "allergy" but for right now, that is all I have to work with as far as what to call this.

Yes, he is on Probiotics as well as D-Mannose. He has been treated with Pancur-C "just in case" he had/has parasites. Vet has checked his stool and urine sample was done yesterday. 

I will have to look into the nutritionist. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Nemom

[Pawz4me]

Our former dog was allergic to carrots (confirmed by both blood testing and food allergy elimination diet). From what I understand it's a relatively common food allergen for dogs. However, I do agree that yours is an unusually long list of suspected allergens, which would also make me wonder if it's an actual allergy issue or something like IBD instead. So maybe the food is still the trigger, but it's not a true allergy issue. The pup's age would also make me question whether what you're seeing is a true allergic reaction or something else, since he's on the young side for allergies to show up. Nothing in your second post makes me change my mind about the possibility of something else.

Which is the primary symptom--diarrhea/vomiting or itching?

For such a young dog with so many allergens I would want to consult with a certified veterinary nutritionist to formulate a raw or home-made diet and whatever supplements would be necessary to ensure it was complete and balanced. There are actually quite a few that offer that type of service. One that I'm familiar with is Dr. Rebecca Remillard at PetDiets. I think I can hunt down some other resources, and if so I'll post them later.

One other resource I can think of off the top of my head that you might investigate is BalanceIt. You choose the ingredients you want to use and it will formulate a recipe. The service is free, but the recipe will include using one of their supplements (which are highly regarded) to make it complete and balanced. You'd have to carefully check the ingredients, I have no idea what they are.

Sometimes when I'm home cooking I'll use Centrum Over 50 multi-vitamins and crush up a tiny bit to add to food. The tablets are formulated for 150 pound humans, so you use an equivalent amount based on your dog's weight. This is one of the things that Dr. Remillard (see above) used to recommend to people who didn't want to use BalanceIt. You'd need to add some calcium in addition to the Centrum, but that's relatively easy.

[Spy Car]

Feed organs at 10% of diet.

Half of that (or 5% of total diet) should be liver.

The other half: kidney and any other "secreting organs" like spleen/melt, or sweetbreads/thymus-pancreas you are able to get..

Bill

[Pawz4me]

Another commercial option you could try is one of the "prescription" hydrolyzed protein foods. It's the protein molecules in foods that trigger allergic reactions. My extremely elementary level understanding is that in the hydrolyzed protein foods the molecules have all somehow been broken down into such microscopic particles that they fly under the immune system radar and are thus incapable of triggering an allergic reaction. So in theory a dog who is highly allergic to (for example) chicken could still eat a chicken based hydrolyzed food. I believe both Hill's and Purina make hydrolyzed protein foods, and Royal Canin may also make one. If nothing else you might could use one of those foods to tide him over while you figure out the logistics of a raw or home-made diet and supplements. Those foods are often fed while doing a food allergy elimination diet, which could also provide useful information. If he reacts while eating one of those foods--that would be a good indicator there's something going on besides food allergies.

I have to say that your vet (1) didn't recommend doing some testing to figure out whether your dog's issues are allergies, IBD or something else and (2) didn't recommend one of the hydrolyzed foods for a young puppy who is suspected of having that many allergens would make me re-think continuing to use that vet.

Also . . . giardia can cause significant GI issues that can come and go. And it won't always show up under a microscope since the cysts are shed intermittently. If he were my dog I might consider doing a course of metronidazole, just in case.

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Another commercial option you could try is one of the "prescription" hydrolyzed protein foods. It's the protein molecules in foods that trigger allergic reactions. My extremely elementary level understanding is that in the hydrolyzed protein foods the molecules have all somehow been broken down into such microscopic particles that they fly under the immune system radar and are thus incapable of triggering an allergic reaction. So in theory a dog who is highly allergic to (for example) chicken could still eat a chicken based hydrolyzed food. I believe both Hill's and Purina make hydrolyzed protein foods, and Royal Canin may also make one. If nothing else you might could use one of those foods to tide him over while you figure out the logistics of a raw or home-made diet and supplements. Those foods are often fed while doing a food allergy elimination diet, which could also provide useful information. If he reacts while eating one of those foods--that would be a good indicator there's something going on besides food allergies.

I have to say that your vet (1) didn't recommend doing some testing to figure out whether your dog's issues are allergies, IBD or something else and (2) didn't recommend one of the hydrolyzed foods for a young puppy who is suspected of having that many allergens would make me re-think continuing to use that vet.

Also . . . giardia can cause significant GI issues that can come and go. And it won't always show up under a microscope since the cysts are shed intermittently. If he were my dog I might consider doing a course of metronidazole, just in case.

Agree with all this. They hydrolyzed diets are like Nutramagin or whatever it is in baby formula. The particles are smaller than the immune system will recognize. And yes, absolutely giardiasis could cause this. Especially since he did fine for 3 weeks on the canned food and then had a problem...a true allergy I'd expect something to happen sooner than that. 

[Pen]

I have an allergy dog—different specific problems, though overlap on chicken

You can probably go to all raw including bone for calcium, where less of the vitamins will be lost...

organ meats should give a lot of micronutrients 

can you find a holistic vet to help?

if he’s relatively okay on lamb rice sweet potato, a start could be to find raw liver (other organs if possible) , heart is basically muscle but has more of some nutrients than most muscle, etc that he could eat.  He needs calcium if you aren’t giving him lamb with bone in it, try for parts that have bone.

I ordered frozen raw green tripe which was not a total solution to problems my dog had, but I think helped.  Supposed to have some needed nutrients.  

Some places sell raw food for pets already ground up in a mix with muscles meat, organs and bone—I was told that some intended for cats as total carnivores will be more free of any pea etc type stuff than the canine blends...  but be careful, my dog gets sick from some pre prepared frozen raw particularly Steve’s...

 

 

[Pawz4me]

A couple of more resources if you're interested in doing a nutritional consult with a board certified veterinary nutritionist:

Weeth Nutrition Services

UGA Vet School

I believe both of those do remote consults directly with the pet owner, not having to go through your primary vet. I know that Dr. Remillard (in my first post) works directly with pet owners. I believe both Dr. Remillard and UGA will formulate home-cooked or raw diets. I don't think Weeth will do a raw diet.

ETA: I know of several other places that do remote consults, but AFAIK those require working through your primary vet. I can post those if you're interested. I'm just assuming that if you consult with someone you'd prefer to do it directly.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Pawz4me

[Nemom]

I have a child with Eosinophilic Esophagitis. She has a feeding tube and has been on elemental formula only for ten years. I've actually thought about sprinkling some of her formula on his food. So of course it is fitting for us to get a dog with food issues. 😫

He has been treated with metronidazole and two rounds of Panacur-C. The house has been thoroughly cleaned, carpet steam cleaned, poop was picked up immediately and grass was sprayed with a bleach solution, toys went through the dishwasher, other dog was treated as well. All in case giardiasis was the culprit.

Weight gain and appetite is not issue. The itching and anxiety stopped with the kibble and never returned. We slowly added in the Natural Balance food. The week that I tried switching it out completely with the cooked lamb was the week that he started backsliding again and the diarrhea came back. Remove the canned food and two days later, no diarrhea and he is like a completely different dog.  My daughter's GI recommends waiting three to four months for a reaction to foods to show up. IgE allergy is immediate; an IgG allergy is not immediate. It is a different type of immune response. 

My research on dog allergies finds that they are rarely allergic to only one thing. Chicken and beef are the two most common with gluten and wheat close behind. 

This dog came from a breeder out on a cattle ranch. According to her, his father and grandfather both have "sensitive stomachs".  She wasn't very helpful and was not willing to give me much information. I was not pleased with how she handle the situation honestly. I seriously wonder if she is hiding something. She really didn't like it when I asked if either of his parents had been treated for lyme. 

I'll check into the recommended resources above. Thanks

Edited September 4, 2019 by Nemom

[Nemom]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I have an allergy dog—different specific problems, though overlap on chicken

You can probably go to all raw including bone for calcium, where less of the vitamins will be lost...

organ meats should give a lot of micronutrients 

can you find a holistic vet to help?

if he’s relatively okay on lamb rice sweet potato, a start could be to find raw liver (other organs if possible) , heart is basically muscle but has more of some nutrients than most muscle, etc that he could eat.  He needs calcium if you aren’t giving him lamb with bone in it, try for parts that have bone.

I ordered frozen raw green tripe which was not a total solution to problems my dog had, but I think helped.  Supposed to have some needed nutrients.  

Some places sell raw food for pets already ground up in a mix with muscles meat, organs and bone—I was told that some intended for cats as total carnivores will be more free of any pea etc type stuff than the canine blends...  but be careful, my dog gets sick from some pre prepared frozen raw particularly Steve’s...

 

 

One of the breeders I was looking at buying from lost a dog to one of these brands of raw food. The rest of her dogs became extremely ill but survived. You could trace it all back to raw snacks that her trainer had given the dogs that day. 

[ktgrok]

I wonder if it is something like the amount of fat/protein fiber rather than the specific food itself? Or if the canned food had something like carrageenan or something?

[Nemom]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I wonder if it is something like the amount of fat/protein fiber rather than the specific food itself? Or if the canned food had something like carrageenan or something?

Canola oil, dried kelp, carrageenan, parsley flakes, natural smoke flavor, yucca extract, and rosemary extract are the "extra ingredients" beyond lamb, sweet potato and the vitamins. 

I also wondered if I didn't just get a bad batch of the canned food. I purchased a bunch of new cans last week right before this started again. Plus who knows how much cross contamination there is. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Nemom

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Nemom said:

Canola oil, dried kelp, carrageenan, parsley flakes, natural smoke flavor, yucca extract, and rosemary extract are the "extra ingredients" beyond lamb, sweet potato and the vitamins. 

carrageenan is a known bowel irritant. I was having weird reactions to cream and half and half and finally figured out that some brands at it in. It can really tear up the gut. 

Maybe also check the fat level and compare to what you are feeding in your homemade food? One of my dogs did NOT tolerate high fat food when he was young...he's a bit more able to now. And of course, because he was losing weight and not eating enough due to upset stomach I was using higher and higher calorie/fat food to make up for it, which made it worse. Oops. 

But I'd really look at carrageenan. 

[Pen]

Soy and corn are often also problems for dogs.  

Is he getting calcium?

 

Btw, my dog seems to do fine on (and likes) Dr Marty’s ($$$) freeze dried raw food, even though it has some ingredients I thought he was reactive to.  Also with ziwi peak lamb and tripe dog food ( also $$$) but he doesn’t like it very much.  

Ive also added some external and internal oils which seems to help with the scratching.    Mine clearly has some contact allergies as well where his fur doesn’t protect his skin.  

I’m about to give him some preprepared raw, and will snap you a photo in case it could help.  

[Pen]

I saw your post about a dog dying due to raw preprepared.  Nonetheless, my guy has done well with: 

[Pen]

Mine doesn’t have a beef problem and has also successfully shared (with human family)  in a grass fed half steer from a local organic farm that I get from time to time (if I have freezer space at slaughter time)—dogs get the tough cuts and most of the organ meats, suitable bones.

a corn problem may seem like a beef problem if the cattle were corn fed

 

 

[Nemom]

37 minutes ago, Pen said:

Soy and corn are often also problems for dogs.  

Is he getting calcium?

 

Btw, my dog seems to do fine on (and likes) Dr Marty’s ($$$) freeze dried raw food, even though it has some ingredients I thought he was reactive to.  Also with ziwi peak lamb and tripe dog food ( also $$$) but he doesn’t like it very much.  

Ive also added some external and internal oils which seems to help with the scratching.    Mine clearly has some contact allergies as well where his fur doesn’t protect his skin.  

I’m about to give him some preprepared raw, and will snap you a photo in case it could help.  

I'm not giving him anything extra. I have some Calcium with D-3 powder for myself. Maybe I should sprinkle some on his food? 1/2 teaspoon for me so maybe a pinch for him? He weighs 10 pounds.

[Pen]

If he’s not getting bone or some sort of calcium, he absolutely must have that.

 I don’t know how much, but he very likely  needs as much or more than you since he is a growing dog and not getting it from his diet.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Nemom said:

I'm not giving him anything extra. I have some Calcium with D-3 powder for myself. Maybe I should sprinkle some on his food? 1/2 teaspoon for me so maybe a pinch for him? He weighs 10 pounds.

Educate yourself on balancing calcium and phosphorus (at 1.2 : 1) before just supplementing haphazardly. You don't want to cause a nutritional imbalance.

Bill

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Nemom said:

I'm not giving him anything extra. I have some Calcium with D-3 powder for myself. Maybe I should sprinkle some on his food? 1/2 teaspoon for me so maybe a pinch for him? He weighs 10 pounds.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/food/calcium-in-homemade-dog-food/

[Pawz4me]

30 minutes ago, Nemom said:

I'm not giving him anything extra. I have some Calcium with D-3 powder for myself. Maybe I should sprinkle some on his food? 1/2 teaspoon for me so maybe a pinch for him? He weighs 10 pounds.

I believe you are NOT supposed to use calcium with added Vitamin D for dogs. You want just plain calcium.

[Nemom]

33 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/food/calcium-in-homemade-dog-food/

okay this article just makes it that much clearer to me that I really need to find a food for him rather than try to figure this out on my own. 

[ktgrok]

I'd be tempted to try a GI diet instead of a single protein diet. Although I'm not sure if there is a GI diet made for puppies..

[ktgrok]

Oh! Just remembered this book! It has VERY simple diets - and has ones for various health conditions, puppies and adults, and short and long term versions. https://www.amazon.com/Home-Prepared-Dog-Cat-Diets-Second/dp/0813801192/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

[Pen]

57 minutes ago, Nemom said:

okay this article just makes it that much clearer to me that I really need to find a food for him rather than try to figure this out on my own. 

 

If you feel better with cooked and want to make him food this is an excellent book: Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats (4th Edition) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1623367557/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_y1eCDbP9HFMTA

it has exact instructions, iirc (I have an earlier edition). 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

This is the standard canned and kibble  commercial food my dog has been the least symptomatic on.   I never get the chicken because of chicken allergy, but have switched around between lamb and fish and between grain free a grain friendly protein and carb sources.  

https://firstmate.com/product/wild-salmon-formula-for-dogs/

Edited September 4, 2019 by Pen

[Nemom]

Thanks Ladies. I will take a look at the books. I picked up a bag of dry Natural Balance. It doesn't have the carrageen and a couple of other ingredients. Fingers crossed it works for him.