New Puppy we are considering! Need list to buy and questions! UPDATE !!! SEPT 4, May 3 - PICTURES!!!

[ktgrok]

A common marker word is "yes". Said in a particular tone, so more like "YES!"

And my preferred release (from stay, etc) is either Break or "Free Dog"

[sheryl]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

As they get older you use life rewards to maintain commands. So asking for a sit before going out the door (great habit!), asking them to lay down before giving them dinner, whatever. 

Other commands to teach:

Off - this means put all four of  your big furry feet on the floor. As in, get "off" the couch because I want to sit there. Or if the dog jumps and puts its paws on a person or counter ge them "off". I hear a lot of people say "down" for this like "get down off the couch" but that's confusing for the dog. If they are taught that down means "lay down" and then you see them laying down on the couch, and say "down" they are already laying down, so why are you saying it? Use "off" instead. Or use a different word for laying down. Either way, just not the same word for both. I actually teach Off and UP at the same time. 

Up- Jump up into the car, onto the couch, onto the exam table, etc. I actually say "Hup-Up" but the word isn't important. 

It is easy to use a treat to lure the dog up onto the couch, reward, then back off the couch, reward, etc. 

"Place" - this means go lay on a designated place (that I'm pointing to usually) and stay there until told otherwise. So a dog bed, bathmat, whatever. Dog learns to associate that place with laying down nd being calm, and this makes life so much easier. Doggy can't be tearing around after the cat if he's in place. Or begging for food if he's in place. Etc. This is a later command, when puppy has more impulse control. 

YEEESSSSSSS, down FROM bed when dog is already LAYING DOWN ON bed.  We have known to say "off" so that I get.  I have so much to do.  As I told Pawz, I think, I'm gong to extract these tips, compile a list and put an "order" to training.  Find a list of marker words, etc.  

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Right - you can reward the dog with or without also using a marker. 

People using marker training also wean off the food and go to just praise as well, to be clear. They only click if giving food, but they gradually stop clicking and just praise. Or again, use life rewards. 

See Katie, I don't think I want to use clicker training.  Not that I think there's anything wrong with it.  I'd rather use a marker word then treat/praise.   

Labs are food motivated so I'm certain I'll have to use high value treat at first as reward then move to praise as reward.   

[sheryl]

9 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

A common marker word is "yes". Said in a particular tone, so more like "YES!"

And my preferred release (from stay, etc) is either Break or "Free Dog"

OK, that's good!   Katie, you teach YES to EVERY behavior desired - pee, come, sit, stay, up?  You're saying that marker word is toned to a higher pitch?
Release -----------  what about using the word release itself to release FROM sit, stay?

[Spy Car]

12 hours ago, sheryl said:

OK, the technique you use is marker and treat for obedience/behavior? There may be a delay of a few seconds or so.  But, the association has been made (over time will serve as confirmation when they repeat this process time and again) by the marker and when they complete the task/command they are rewarded with a treat? 

Now Bill is doing the same thing but like you said you can't give a dolphin a fish immediately as a reward.  So, you Katie would tell your sit to sit and upon completion of sitting you offer marker?  Then it takes a split second to complete that command so you then will give him a treat.   Bill, if I'm not mistaken (correct me, Bill) speaks a command to sit and while his dog is "in the process" he offers a marker followed by a treat.

I would praise/treat a pup immediately upon sitting. Not in the act of sitting, nor 3 seconds (or so) after sitting.

Heeling is a little different, since one is in motion. In that case one times the praise/reward comes immediately when pup falls into the perfect position relative to its handler. 

Each time the treat/reward comes when they've exhibited the behavior you seek to condition. Immediately.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, sheryl said:

YEEESSSSSSS, down FROM bed when dog is already LAYING DOWN ON bed.  We have known to say "off" so that I get.  I have so much to do.  As I told Pawz, I think, I'm gong to extract these tips, compile a list and put an "order" to training.  Find a list of marker words, etc.  

See Katie, I don't think I want to use clicker training.  Not that I think there's anything wrong with it.  I'd rather use a marker word then treat/praise.   

Labs are food motivated so I'm certain I'll have to use high value treat at first as reward then move to praise as reward.   

Clicker training was a brief fad here in Southern California 30 years ago, but many (most) trainers found the clickers annoying (especially in classes full of dogs/pups) where all the noise created confusion. The clickers also added what many feel is unnecessary complexity and the need to hold and object in hands that are already busy doing other things.

Among the elite obedience training clubs around her, I'm not aware of any trainers who are using clicker training.

Trainers here focus on good "timing" (as described) to condition positive behaviors. 

As to transitions from one "command" to another--example from a sit to a down, or a sit to a recall (if one has walked some distance away during the "sit")--you do not use a "release" word in between. It would be one command to another command.

Bill

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Clicker training was a brief fad here in Southern California 30 years ago, but many (most) trainers found the clickers annoying (especially in classes full of dogs/pups) where all the noise created confusion. The clickers also added what many feel is unnecessary complexity and the need to hold and object in hands that are already busy doing other things.

Among the elite obedience training clubs around her, I'm not aware of any trainers who are using clicker training.

Trainers here focus on good "timing" (as described) to condition positive behaviors. 

As to transitions from one "command" to another--example from a sit to a down, or a sit to a recall (if one has walked some distance away during the "sit")--you do not use a "release" word in between. It would be one command to another command.

Bill

 

 

 

Still popular in the training circles I run in although many use a marker word rather than the clicker itself for convenience. 

And yes, no release word needed when going from one command to another. Only when not doing that...so if my dog is in "place" and no longer needs to be, but I also have nothing else he needs to do, I'll tell him "break" and he is free to do his own thing. 

I also use it when say, in the yard or at the park, if I have him sit/stay at my feet  to chill out for a bit, and then release him to go play some more. 

[ktgrok]

34 minutes ago, sheryl said:

YEEESSSSSSS, down FROM bed when dog is already LAYING DOWN ON bed.  We have known to say "off" so that I get.  I have so much to do.  As I told Pawz, I think, I'm gong to extract these tips, compile a list and put an "order" to training.  Find a list of marker words, etc.  

See Katie, I don't think I want to use clicker training.  Not that I think there's anything wrong with it.  I'd rather use a marker word then treat/praise.   

Labs are food motivated so I'm certain I'll have to use high value treat at first as reward then move to praise as reward.   

That's totally fine! And given how food motivated labs are, especially puppies, you may be able to use regular food for a lot of the treats. He's going to get it anyway, might as well earn it. Or mix up some of it with some better treats as a "trail mix" so the smell gets all over the regular food. 

[Spy Car]

24 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Still popular in the training circles I run in although many use a marker word rather than the clicker itself for convenience. 

And yes, no release word needed when going from one command to another. Only when not doing that...so if my dog is in "place" and no longer needs to be, but I also have nothing else he needs to do, I'll tell him "break" and he is free to do his own thing. 

I also use it when say, in the yard or at the park, if I have him sit/stay at my feet  to chill out for a bit, and then release him to go play some more. 

So I'm not confused, if one is doing this style w/o a clicker, you are calling a word such as "nice!" the marker, correct?

When say one is "heeling" for example, one is giving a combination of command words (like "heel) and a "marker" (like nice!) when the job is well done?

Bill

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Spy Car said:

So I'm not confused, if one is doing this style w/o a clicker, you are calling a word such as "nice!" the marker, correct?

When say one is "heeling" for example, one is giving a combination of command words (like "heel) and a "marker" (like nice!) when the job is well done?

Bill

 

Yes. You use a chosen word instead of the clicker, but everything else stays the same as clicker training. 

So the sequence would be :

1. cue/command

2. Behavior

3. Marker

4. Reward

 

Now, when first teaching a behavior you may skip the cue/command until you know you can get them to do it. So may not say "sit" until you have succesfully lured them into a sit several times. But generally, that's the sequence. The marker should be at that split second they do what you want. Whatever you mark you get more of. The idea is that you can be faster/more precise with the marker than the actual delivery of the reward, so it lessens confusion and speeds up learning. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

YEEESSSSSSS, down FROM bed when dog is already LAYING DOWN ON bed.  We have known to say "off" so that I get.  I have so much to do.  As I told Pawz, I think, I'm gong to extract these tips, compile a list and put an "order" to training.  Find a list of marker words, etc.  

 

We have had trouble also with word “up” used conversationally as English .  If dog understands “up” to get on top of something.  Then something like, “Let’s get up now.” Said by Humans in bed can mean to a listening dog that he should jump on top.  And since he was just following what he thought was wanted, he can’t understand why people are unhappy with him. 

 

For that reason, we have been gravitating to non English for command words, and making sure family members know what word is supposed to mean what.  

We also try not to use dogs names except when talking to the dog directly so that they won’t tune out to their name—that is, when talking *about* the dog we will call them by their first letter, or “the dog(s)”.   As in, “I’m making a vet appointment for M” means I’m referring to dog whose name starts with M, or  “please take R for a W” means to take dog whose name starts with letter R for a walk.  The dogs do catch on to the letters, but it’s different than a clear command of “Rebekah: Hier!”  Where the personal dog name is an ears up alert to that dog to pay attention. 

Quote

See Katie, I don't think I want to use clicker training.  Not that I think there's anything wrong with it.  I'd rather use a marker word then treat/praise.   

 

You can also consider a marker sound like a tongue click.  The Guide dogs obviously seem to do great with “nice” but Some trainers think a click sound or a word with hard, click type sounds like “good” work better than soft sounds.    

Quote

Labs are food motivated so I'm certain I'll have to use high value treat at first as reward then move to praise as reward.   

 

Usually true.  And I think especially with the showlines type.  But be aware, Not all Labs are.  We had one who was ball obsessed. Serious ball addict.   Cared very little about food, even real meat not much of a motivation for him.  But a ball could be used as a lure into positions, and for his reward.   I’ve had more than one dog who was highly toy/play motivated, but only the one where food was basically useless as a motivator for anything, and where he had such a strong focus on just a single type of toy/play.   Several though have been relatively more ball/toy motivated than food motivated, including 3 part Labs. 

You can check food motivation, ball motivation, to some degree when you visit puppies if breeder will allow it.  Will the puppies follow a food treat? Will they play with a ball?   (Or could ask breeder to show you puppy response to a piece of her own kibble, or liver treat, or toy , since you as stranger might get an atypical response). 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

And my preferred release (from stay, etc) is either Break or "Free Dog"

 

We’ve had a form of both those to mean 2 different things. 

we use “all free” to mean dog is released from a stay or heeling and can do what it wants...

we use “take a break” to mean dog may exit through an exterior house doorway to outside, or through a gateway to out of yard. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Thanks for painting that picture for me.  We do allow our dogs on bed but we only have 1 at a time (would like more than 1 simultaneously but not in this house) and we do allow them on the bed as well although too big to sleep there.  I know that we'll have to "maintain" commands so this pup won't get rusty but we should be able to back off over time and once the obedience training is solidified.  Thanks! 

 

Especially if you have an “easy” dog you should be able to drop to a maintenance level with commands once she solidly knows whatever you think she needs to know for your circumstances.  

Exact circumstances can matter a lot. 

A big city apartment Lab, and a rural Lab will have different needs for their own safety, and working dogs need more training.

 As another rule of thumb, Labs are often ready to move from basic life skills to specialized, advanced working dog training at around 10 to 14 mos.  So that might be about when your dog would be a well mannered pet.

(ETA: a lot will depend on how much education the dog gets...   some things also take dog maturity level...    dog education takes time like house training/bladder control requires both training and also physical maturity to where she can go through a whole night    If you give lots of short training stints early in her life, she’ll be easier to manage, and even will catch on  (aha! 💡)  to the idea of training — which is far better for her and you than not doing it early and having an out of control big adolescent dog.) 

 But I’ve also tended to see a few wrongful chewings up of something (Hat, slipper, gear shift knob) go closer to age 2 or slightly over with Labs when they’ve seemed all done with that—but then do it if they are bored or lonely.

(ETA: or could there maybe be some late teething for some rear molars?)  

And to some degree it’s a failure in owner not having provided a suitable chew or self entertainment outlet, plus nor worked up gradually to length of time dog is able to be free range at home (or in vehicle) without supervision. 

Occasionally can happen even in a solid, mature adult dog who gets lonely or bored.  Which probably would not happen with an SD or working dog because they aren’t alone or bored.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

Btw: we’ve had a 100pound very long-legged (probably part Doberman) dog co-sleep with human boy in a single size bed.  At least for early part of night as child fell asleep. If dog got hot or uncomfortable later, then the dog got herself out of the bed.  

[Pen]

Your dh wants puppy not adult dog,  right?   But you seem to be who is looking into puppy and will have the main job of raising puppy or all of the work?  Shouldn’t your dh be taking a big part in this since it is he who wants puppy?  Does he understand what a puppy entails as work?  Will he help?  If you have kids, will/can they help? 

If not, maybe this would be better time for another adult dog with whom you can practice some training methods and be more ready for puppy in future?

[Pen]

If you do get a puppy,  a supply I consider *critical*  is good chewing toys/objects.    

Honestly the dog could eat off of a cookie sheet, and drink from a cooking pot.  

But good chew toys will be really important during teething. 

 

There may be controversy over what Is a good healthy chew object.

1) it should not resemble anything you don’t want her to chew

2) she should like it

3) it should be safe for her

4) it needs to be affordable for you

[Lori D.]

21 hours ago, Spy Car said:

You are doing great work!
Knowing myself, it would be so hard to give up puppy that I'd reared. I can't imagine that's easy for anyone.
I'm sure the people who ultimately receive these dogs are supremely appreciative. 
Two cookies for you!
Bill

20 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Same. I'd LOVE the training part, but after the depression that hit me after we gave up our foster dog, Arya, I know I can't do it. hell, I'm about to sob just typing her name and she was only here two a half months! ...

Everyone has gifts...I had no trouble working in veterinary medicine and I know many can't handle that...as far as injuries, trauma, euthanasia. I can do that. But care for a dog for a year and give it up? Nope. Not enough antidepressants in the world. 

 

Lol! Thanks for the double treats! 😉

And yes, we are only puppy sitters, not even the actual puppy raisers, and yes, I cry every.single.time a puppy heads back to Guide Dogs to "go to college" (LOL!) for guide dog training and their new life. But... it absolutely does help knowing what a gift these dogs will be to the people who will become their partners -- it helps to hear these people say that the world has opened up to them and they have complete independence now with a guide dog. Wow.

Also, it helps that new puppies arrive. They never replace the wonderful unique personalities of the previous puppies, but it does help getting to work with a whole new batch of puppies with *their* unique quirks and personalities, and getting to watch the new ones grow and learn.

And sometimes ... a dog just does not have what it takes to be a guide, and if they aren't career changed to a different type of service or program -- sometimes they come back to the raiser and get to be adopted by the raiser! That's how we got our current dog, a Golden Retriever/Lab mix (Guide Dogs breeds Labs, Golden Retrievers, and mixes for their program). She was co-raised by two of the group members, but didn't have what it takes to go back to Guide Dogs (she lacks the needed self-confidence, and is more of a follower and not a leader); because both co-raisers already have pet dogs, and wanted to continue raising Guide Dog puppies, they just didn't have the house space to adopt her.

So she was offered to us, since we were part of the group, and people knew we had joined the group to be puppy sitters, but also to learn the positive training method so we could get a puppy and train it. Instead, we got a "gift-wrapped" dog! (:D

And we get to help with the training and puppy sitting and enjoying of the new puppies! 🐶💕

Edited August 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

(Guide Dogs breeds Labs, Golden Retrievers, and mixes for their program)

Now I'm curious. Do you know why Guide Dogs breeds mixes? I assume they're all about temperament and health, but they could get both of those in purebred Labs or Goldens, so . . .  why mixes? 

[Lori D.]

8 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know why Guide Dogs breeds mixes? I assume they're all about temperament and health, but they could get both of those in purebred Labs or Goldens, so . . .  why mixes? 

You're right -- they do breed for temperament and intelligence and trainability (not purity of look -- as a lot of the pure-bred puppies would not pass muster shape-wise at a Dog Show, LOL)! But when you are smart and lovable and quick to pick up the training, who cares what you look like, right? 😉 😄 

Good question! No, I don't know their rationale. Could be that they're wanting to add more health rigor to the Goldens by adding in some Lab?? Or want more genetic diversity overall??? But I really don't know. We have a meeting tomorrow -- I'll try and remember to ask our group leader if she knows. She's been doing the puppy raising for about 20 years and knows everything, lol.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

You're right -- they do breed for temperament and intelligence, as a lot of the pure-bred puppies would not pass muster shape-wise at a Dog Show, LOL! But when you are smart and lovable and quick to pick up the training, who cares what you look like, right? 😉 😄 

Good question! No, I don't know their rationale. Could be that they're wanting to add more health rigor to the Goldens by adding in some Lab?? Or want more genetic diversity overall??? But I really don't know. We have a meeting tomorrow -- I'll try and remember to ask our group leader if she knows. She's been doing the puppy raising for about 20 years and knows everything, lol.

I do think it is trying to get a blend of the characteristics of both. Labs are a bit more independent, goldens more calm/soft. And labradors have longer lifespans. 

[Pawz4me]

Genetic diversity was my guess. It would be really interesting to know the exact reasons!

[Lori D.]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Genetic diversity was my guess. It would be really interesting to know the exact reasons!

Hope I can find out -- so we'll all know! 😄 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know why Guide Dogs breeds mixes? I assume they're all about temperament and health, but they could get both of those in purebred Labs or Goldens, so . . .  why mixes? 

 

I was told that the mix tends to give a short haired dog which is easier for some blind people to manage for grooming needs, plus a more docile Golden personality which also can be easier to handle. (Though negative seems to be Golden are  sometimes too shy or nervous for GD work—almost never true of Lab). Labs still have retained a lot of working dog drive—Goldens seem to be losing that.   We have a Guide Dog branch south of us, so also a fair number of puppies in training in the area.   Most are pure Labs or Lab/Golden mix.  Few straight Golden’s now.

[Lori D.]

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Now I'm curious. Do you know why Guide Dogs breeds mixes? I assume they're all about temperament and health, but they could get both of those in purebred Labs or Goldens, so . . .  why mixes? 

Okay! So I couldn't wait and emailed our Guide Dogs for the Blind puppy raising group's leader, lol. Here's what she says:

"They [Guide Dogs for the Blind] like the sturdiness and confidence of the lab mixed with the sweeter, more docile demeanor of the golden.  So they mixed the best qualities from two nice breeds.  Also, their golden breeding colony is smaller and they needed to diversify to avoid inbreeding.  And finally they liked the fact the Goldens produce large litters. More bang for their buck! When they first started producing crosses, all the cross puppies were spayed/neutered.   None of them were used as breeders.  Eventually they let the males become  breeders and finally they put the females in the breeding colony as well. And another interesting factoid... Any [cross-breed] that is 94% of one breed is not considered a cross... that is actually an AKC determination.  And another piece of information: Seeing Eye Guide Dogs calls their crosses 'goldadors'."
 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

... (Though negative seems to be Golden are  sometimes too shy or nervous for GD work—almost never true of Lab). Labs still have retained a lot of working dog drive—Goldens seem to be losing that.   We have a Guide Dog branch south of us, so also a fair number of puppies in training in the area.   Most are pure Labs or Lab/Golden mix.  Few straight Golden’s now...

Interesting. Not been the case with the Goldens or crosses in our group (Guide Dogs for the Blind) -- although I've only seen a grand total of about 3 dozen dogs in the group since we joined. 😉 Of those puppies, our group has had 3 full Golden Retrievers. Two are now working guides, and both *flew* through training with loads of confidence -- the third is still finishing up being raised. We've had 2 Lab/Golden mixes -- one did not have the needed self-confidence temperament, and the other is currently still being raised.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Okay! So I couldn't wait and emailed our Guide Dogs for the Blind puppy raising group's leader, lol. Here's what she says:

"They [Guide Dogs for the Blind] like the sturdiness and confidence of the lab mixed with the sweeter, more docile demeanor of the golden.  So they mixed the best qualities from two nice breeds.  Also, their golden breeding colony is smaller and they needed to diversify to avoid inbreeding.  And finally they liked the fact the Goldens produce large litters. More bang for their buck! When they first started producing crosses, all the cross puppies were spayed/neutered.   None of them were used as breeders.  Eventually they let the males become  breeders and finally they put the females in the breeding colony as well. And another interesting factoid... Any [cross-breed] that is 94% of one breed is not considered a cross... that is actually an AKC determination.  And another piece of information: Seeing Eye Guide Dogs calls their crosses 'goldadors'."
 

Interesting. Not been the case with the Goldens or crosses in our group (Guide Dogs for the Blind) -- although I've only seen a grand total of about 3 dozen dogs in the group since we joined. 😉 Of those puppies, our group has had 3 full Golden Retrievers. Two are now working guides, and both *flew* through training with loads of confidence -- the third is still finishing up being raised. We've had 2 Lab/Golden mixes -- one did not have the needed self-confidence temperament, and the other is currently still being raised.

 

3 full Goldens and 2 Lab/Golden mixes, how many pure Labs?

Maybe Climate plays a part with regard to fur choice?

Otherwise in different words , this basically is the same as what I was told for the cross reason, other than that apparently full Goldens in your area are not having any passing problems to the best of your knowledge (though if they were taken out of program before even being placed with puppy raisers would you know ?) 

or— they’ve phrased it with entirely an emphasis on the positive attributes, but the reverse of “confidence” is something along lines of shy/nervous...

 “sturdiness and confidence of the lab mixed with the sweeter, more docile demeanor of the golden”

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Clicker training was a brief fad here in Southern California 30 years ago, but many (most) trainers found the clickers annoying (especially in classes full of dogs/pups) where all the noise created confusion. The clickers also added what many feel is unnecessary complexity and the need to hold and object in hands that are already busy doing other things.

Among the elite obedience training clubs around her, I'm not aware of any trainers who are using clicker training.

Trainers here focus on good "timing" (as described) to condition positive behaviors. 

As to transitions from one "command" to another--example from a sit to a down, or a sit to a recall (if one has walked some distance away during the "sit")--you do not use a "release" word in between. It would be one command to another command.

Bill

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Clicker training was a brief fad here in Southern California 30 years ago, but many (most) trainers found the clickers annoying (especially in classes full of dogs/pups) where all the noise created confusion. The clickers also added what many feel is unnecessary complexity and the need to hold and object in hands that are already busy doing other things.

Among the elite obedience training clubs around her, I'm not aware of any trainers who are using clicker training.

Trainers here focus on good "timing" (as described) to condition positive behaviors. 

As to transitions from one "command" to another--example from a sit to a down, or a sit to a recall (if one has walked some distance away during the "sit")--you do not use a "release" word in between. It would be one command to another command.

Bill

 

 

 

I understand.  (Previous post) - Immediately upon the desired behavior, that's when you treat.  Not in the process. Thanks for that clarification.  Now, I don't understand the last line.  ??? 

 

 

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes. You use a chosen word instead of the clicker, but everything else stays the same as clicker training. 

So the sequence would be :

1. cue/command

2. Behavior

3. Marker

4. Reward

 

Now, when first teaching a behavior you may skip the cue/command until you know you can get them to do it. So may not say "sit" until you have succesfully lured them into a sit several times. But generally, that's the sequence. The marker should be at that split second they do what you want. Whatever you mark you get more of. The idea is that you can be faster/more precise with the marker than the actual delivery of the reward, so it lessens confusion and speeds up learning. 

OK, I'll just embarrass myself more - what the heck is cue?  Another word for command?  

So, command = come 
      behavior - dogs comes along
      word for marker
      reward

Again, so the reward is always food for puppies and transitions to verbal praise (mostly) after they've mastered the commands?  Not to say they won't get another treat, b/c they will but one of the goals is to move from food reward to spoken praise as reward?  

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Among the elite obedience training clubs around her, I'm not aware of any trainers who are using clicker training.

 

There have been some people who promote clicker for AKC competition obedience (Morgan Specter?) but most “obedience” is at close range and pretty easy to achieve with a variety of methods.  Clicker (or equivalent “marking” and operant conditioning like that) is at its finest for complicated distance work.  Around here agility competition dog handlers are still using it for that reason.  

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

We have had trouble also with word “up” used conversationally as English .  If dog understands “up” to get on top of something.  Then something like, “Let’s get up now.” Said by Humans in bed can mean to a listening dog that he should jump on top.  And since he was just following what he thought was wanted, he can’t understand why people are unhappy with him. 

 

For that reason, we have been gravitating to non English for command words, and making sure family members know what word is supposed to mean what.  

We also try not to use dogs names except when talking to the dog directly so that they won’t tune out to their name—that is, when talking *about* the dog we will call them by their first letter, or “the dog(s)”.   As in, “I’m making a vet appointment for M” means I’m referring to dog whose name starts with M, or  “please take R for a W” means to take dog whose name starts with letter R for a walk.  The dogs do catch on to the letters, but it’s different than a clear command of “Rebekah: Hier!”  Where the personal dog name is an ears up alert to that dog to pay attention. 

 

You can also consider a marker sound like a tongue click.  The Guide dogs obviously seem to do great with “nice” but Some trainers think a click sound or a word with hard, click type sounds like “good” work better than soft sounds.    

 

Usually true.  And I think especially with the showlines type.  But be aware, Not all Labs are.  We had one who was ball obsessed. Serious ball addict.   Cared very little about food, even real meat not much of a motivation for him.  But a ball could be used as a lure into positions, and for his reward.   I’ve had more than one dog who was highly toy/play motivated, but only the one where food was basically useless as a motivator for anything, and where he had such a strong focus on just a single type of toy/play.   Several though have been relatively more ball/toy motivated than food motivated, including 3 part Labs. 

You can check food motivation, ball motivation, to some degree when you visit puppies if breeder will allow it.  Will the puppies follow a food treat? Will they play with a ball?   (Or could ask breeder to show you puppy response to a piece of her own kibble, or liver treat, or toy , since you as stranger might get an atypical response). 

 

Tongue click - no, won't be doing that.  Do that there is value when you suggest using foreign words.  Or, just use English words very carefully.  Good idea to test out food vs. ball when we see the puppies or ask breeder.  Will do that.  Good idea, Pen! 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK, I'll just embarrass myself more - what the heck is cue?  Another word for command?  

So, command = come 
      behavior - dogs comes along
      word for marker
      reward

Again, so the reward is always food for puppies and transitions to verbal praise (mostly) after they've mastered the commands?  Not to say they won't get another treat, b/c they will but one of the goals is to move from food reward to spoken praise as reward?  

 

A cue is what the dog understands as a signal to do something.  So ideally that will be the same as your command word.  But it could be that unrealized by you each time you said/say “come” you reached/reach up and touch(ed) your ear— and the ear touch was the actual cue the dog learned to respond to.   (And this sort of thing is actually pretty common, where a dog is taking some cue that the owner doesn’t realize she’s giving andvthe dog hasn’t actually learned the command word at all.)

The reward is similarly whatever the dog feels rewarded by.  You hope it will be the food treat you have, but as I posted above I have had dogs that don’t feel rewarded by food.  

A really over the top (with happy excited voice and petting and great gusto and enthusiasm) telling a dog she’s the smartest best dog ever when she pees would likely be more useful than offering a food treat she doesn’t like.  

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

The bright colored book by Reid is specific to dog training, the one on right by Logan and Gordon (probably available in much newer edition now) is pertinent to many species of higher animals learning — including humans.  

[Pen]

I recommend both the above books, and if you are homeschooling kids old enough to understand to make “learning/conditioning/psychology/dog training” (depending on age and grade)  a unit study or elective class . 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pen

[Lori D.]

52 minutes ago, Pen said:

... apparently full Goldens in your area are not having any passing problems to the best of your knowledge (though if they were taken out of program before even being placed with puppy raisers would you know ?) 

Yes, we are informed of what happens with the puppies that come to the raising group every step of the way. And, a raiser can also find out what has happened to all of their puppy's siblings from the same litter, so we can also "track" how a group of puppies is doing as far as making it through the program or not.
 

52 minutes ago, Pen said:

3 full Goldens and 2 Lab/Golden mixes, how many pure Labs?

I did a recount of all the puppies I can remember that have been in the group since we started (below). I did not count puppies still being raised, but of those who are older/done being raised, the completion rate comes out to:

50% of Goldens + Golden/Lab mix = working guides (or 100% if just counting the Goldens, lol)
27% of Labs = working guides or completed Guide Dog training and are now service dogs

Of course, this is just a very small sample, lol. Guide Dogs for the Blind overall figures (of ALL their dogs, after removing any dogs who do not advance due to health or other obvious issues), are about 44% of dogs who return to the campus for the intensive training become guide dogs. (If you count the dogs who drop due to health/obvious issues, about 1/3 of dogs in the program make it all the way.) It takes a LOT of all the right qualities PLUS great health for a dog to become a guide dog! (:D

3 Golden Retrievers
   - 1 = still being raised
   - 2 = working guides

3 Golden/Lab mixes
   - 1 = still being raised
   - 2 = finished raising part of program but did not go back to Guide Dogs (1 = lacked confidence / 1 = health reason); both adopted

22 labs
   - 9 = currently being raised
   - 4 = working guides
  - 2 = completed Guide Dog training; transferred to other service dog programs
   - 1 = mommy in the breeder program
   - 2 = finished raising, recalled, but did not get all the way thru Guide Dog training; adopted
   - 3 = removed from program while being raised due to health or anxiety issues; adopted
   - 1 = removed from program while being raised due to temperament incompatibility; adopted

Edited August 25, 2019 by Lori D.

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Especially if you have an “easy” dog you should be able to drop to a maintenance level with commands once she solidly knows whatever you think she needs to know for your circumstances.  

Exact circumstances can matter a lot. 

A big city apartment Lab, and a rural Lab will have different needs for their own safety, and working dogs need more training.

 As another rule of thumb, Labs are often ready to move from basic life skills to specialized, advanced working dog training at around 10 to 14 mos.  So that might be about when your dog would be a well mannered pet.

(ETA: a lot will depend on how much education the dog gets...   some things also take dog maturity level...    dog education takes time like house training/bladder control requires both training and also physical maturity to where she can go through a whole night    If you give lots of short training stints early in her life, she’ll be easier to manage, and even will catch on  (aha! 💡)  to the idea of training — which is far better for her and you than not doing it early and having an out of control big adolescent dog.) 

 But I’ve also tended to see a few wrongful chewings up of something (Hat, slipper, gear shift knob) go closer to age 2 or slightly over with Labs when they’ve seemed all done with that—but then do it if they are bored or lonely.

(ETA: or could there maybe be some late teething for some rear molars?)  

And to some degree it’s a failure in owner not having provided a suitable chew or self entertainment outlet, plus nor worked up gradually to length of time dog is able to be free range at home (or in vehicle) without supervision. 

Occasionally can happen even in a solid, mature adult dog who gets lonely or bored.  Which probably would not happen with an SD or working dog because they aren’t alone or bored.

 

Each lab is different but hopefully our little girl puppy will catch on fast.  🙂  I'm hoping for that.  Our first lab - I must have been working at the time, but I came home to find a silk scarf chewed (back when silk scarves were popular - lol).  Thankfully we knew an inexpensive alterations woman and she was able to sew the 2 pieces together.  Now there is a seam but it's not obvious due to the floral pattern on it.  25 years later or maybe more and she still alters for us.  🙂 

Yes, proper nutrition, activity level, toys and love, attention, physical touch.  Everything works together for a happy dog.  But, yes, chew toys are important to a puppy!  

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Yes, we are informed of what happens with the puppies that come to the raising group every step of the way. A raiser can also find out what has happened to all of their puppy's siblings from the same litter.

 

I did a recount of all the puppies I can remember that have been in the group since we started (below). It comes out to:
50% of Goldens + Golden/Lab mix = working guides
27% of Labs = working guides or completed Guide Dog training and are now service dogs

Of course, this is just a very small sample, lol. Guide Dogs overall figures of ALL dogs, when you remove any dogs who do not advance due to health or other obvious issues, that about 44% of dogs that return to Guide Dog campus become guide dogs. (If you count the dogs who drop due to health/obvious issues, about 1/3 of dogs in the program make it all the way.) It takes a LOT of all the right qualities PLUS great health for a dog to become a guide dog! (:D

3 Golden Retrievers
   - 1 = still being raised
   - 2 = working guides

3 Golden/Lab mixes
   - 1 = still being raised
   - 2 = finished raising part of program but did not go back to Guide Dogs (1 = lacked confidence / 1 = health reason)

22 labs -- raised while I've been in the group:
   - 9 = currently being raised
   - 4 = working guides
  - 2 = completed Guide Dog training; transferred to other service dog programs
   - 1 = mommy in the breeder program
   - 2 = finished raising, recalled, but did not get all the way thru Guide Dog training; adopted
   - 3 = removed from program while being raised due to health or anxiety issues; adopted
   - 1 = removed from program while being raised due to temperament incompatibility; adopted

 

Not sure if the Golden sample size is too small to judge or if your group simply has a better Golden success rate...

 

Here Labradors seem to be more successful.  And here’s a bigger Guidedog group that seems also to indicate success for Labs:

“Labrador Retrievers have proven to be the most successful breed for Guide Dogs of America but our breeds also include Labrador/Golden Retriever crosses, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherd dogs. A variation of breeds helps to fill the many needs of our clients.” 

https://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/gda-programs/breeding/

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pen

[sheryl]

9 hours ago, Pen said:

Your dh wants puppy not adult dog,  right?   But you seem to be who is looking into puppy and will have the main job of raising puppy or all of the work?  Shouldn’t your dh be taking a big part in this since it is he who wants puppy?  Does he understand what a puppy entails as work?  Will he help?  If you have kids, will/can they help? 

If not, maybe this would be better time for another adult dog with whom you can practice some training methods and be more ready for puppy in future?

Yes, dh would like puppy.  And, I am home while dh is at work outside of the home so naturally more of the training will fall on me. HOWEVER, I'm going to finish this thread soon and after I compile my tips here, I'm going to review like craze, watch youtube tutorials and practice on a stuffed animal (as best I can - the timing thing on my part).  Pen you've mentioned twice for us to wait and I would agree with you but we'll be able to do this.  We are not going to train to show.  This will be our 3rd puppy so we know it's work.  Our 20 yo dd will help also.  I'm going to make a Reader's Digest version of what we need to do to successfully train our dog.  I'm sure we'll make a mistake.  Hopefully they will be few.  I think consistency is important too so if the majority over time is correct, hopefully that has an impact for the better than a few mistakes.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, dh would like puppy.  And, I am home while dh is at work outside of the home so naturally more of the training will fall on me. HOWEVER, I'm going to finish this thread soon and after I compile my tips here, I'm going to review like craze, watch youtube tutorials and practice on a stuffed animal (as best I can - the timing thing on my part).  Pen you've mentioned twice for us to wait and I would agree with you but we'll be able to do this.  We are not going to train to show.  This will be our 3rd puppy so we know it's work.  Our 20 yo dd will help also.  I'm going to make a Reader's Digest version of what we need to do to successfully train our dog.  I'm sure we'll make a mistake.  Hopefully they will be few.  I think consistency is important too so if the majority over time is correct, hopefully that has an impact for the better than a few mistakes.  

 

Yes. Even top experienced trainers make errors.  And most owners make quite a lot.  Dogs are quite resilient and forgiving luckily. And Labs are generally a fairly easy breed.  And remarkably adept learners.  They certainly catch onto English faster than we seem able to learn their language.

 If you want to get and raise a puppy now, I’m sure you’ll do fine.

 I was just concerned you might be being pushed into a huge puppy job that you weren’t quite wanting.  

[Lori D.]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Not sure if the Golden sample size is too small to judge or if your group simply has a better Golden success rate...

Here Labradors seem to be more successful: 

“Labrador Retrievers have proven to be the most successful breed for Guide Dogs of America but our breeds also include Labrador/Golden Retriever crosses, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherd dogs. A variation of breeds helps to fill the many needs of our clients.” 

https://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/gda-programs/breeding/

Yes, Guide Dogs for the Blind (GDB) is a different organization -- headquarters is farther north in CA than the Guide Dogs of America (GDA) -- plus GDB has an Oregon campus. The two organizations likely have different breeding stock. I know GDB is involved in an international exchange with programs in Australia and UK in order to broaden the genetic diversity for all of the programs -- the puppy from our group who is currently a breeder had a sister who went into the international breeder exchange and is in Australia.

GDB used to use German Shepherds, but found they had too low of a success rate, because the Shepherds tend to bond heavily with one person -- and a potential guide dog puppy has to be flexible, as they go through multiple raisers/handlers: people at the breeding center; then the raiser; then the handler/trainer back at the campus; and THEN finally their sight-impaired human partner. Apparently GDB feels that the variety of Labs, Goldens, and Golden/Lab crosses gives them plenty of variation to fill client needs. I have heard of the occasional standard poodle trained as a guide, but that would not have been with GDB, as they are hyper-cautious about what dogs are permitted on campus, let alone into the breeding program.

[Pen]

 

Quote

 plus GDB has an Oregon campus.

 

Is that the one in Boring? Or is it  a different group yet?

the Guide Dogs group in Boring are where the local puppies being raised are coming from. 

They may lose Labs from their program too, especially if they have higher numbers to start with, but “all” ( much smaller total numbers than your group) Lab puppies I have met who are part of the program have seemed rock solid! One who was being raised by family of a friend of Ds almost seemed like a fake dog—hard to imagine the amazing calm of a young puppy in the midst of homeschooling frenzy.  

ETA: not a very young puppy — around 8 months old- leaving for advanced training when I met him.  

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pen

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

OK, I'll just embarrass myself more - what the heck is cue?  Another word for command?  

So, command = come 
      behavior - dogs comes along
      word for marker
      reward

Again, so the reward is always food for puppies and transitions to verbal praise (mostly) after they've mastered the commands?  Not to say they won't get another treat, b/c they will but one of the goals is to move from food reward to spoken praise as reward?  

Yes, cue is basically another word for command, it just sounds nicer, lol. And it's used in other learning situations, not just training dogs, so it carried over. 

And yes, you move to praise, pats, etc but when you give praise instead of a treat you do NOT use the marker. Marker always goes with the treat or some other tangible reward. So when you phase out treats you phase out the marker as well, they go together. You can give a treat without a marker, but don't use the marker without a treat. 

[Lori D.]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

Is that the one in Boring? Or is it  a different group yet?

Yes, that's the one.

There are several guide dog organizations, which all seem to service different areas of the country, and have slightly different policies and puppies. Here are a few of them:

The Seeing Eye (founded 1929; looks like it is very small and just in New Jersey)
Leader Dogs for the Blind (founded 1938; looks like it is just in Michigan -- but they have a program for inmates to raise puppies!)
Guide Dogs for the Blind (founded 1942; puppy raising groups in 7 western states)
Guide Dog Foundation (founded 1946; puppy raising groups in 11 states of New England, Tri-State area, Mid-Atlantic, and Southeast)
Guide Dogs of America (founded 1948 as International Guiding Eyes; puppy raising groups just in So.CA)
Guiding Eyes for the Blind (founded 1956; puppy raising groups in 12 eastern seaboard states)
Southeastern Guide Dogs (founded 1982; puppy raising groups in 7 southern states)

Edited August 25, 2019 by Lori D.

[The Governess]

On 8/22/2019 at 3:11 AM, Pawz4me said:

You want a Martingale type collar. Something like this, but of course much smaller for her neck. Etsy might be your best bet, since you can probably get someone to custom make one to the correct size. The typical sight hound collar is a wide, soft Martingale style. Even with one of those you need to be super alert to the dog backing out of them.

If you need a training collar then look for a micro prong. They're proportionally scaled down versions of the ones used on larger dogs. 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 9:24 AM, Spy Car said:

LOL.

Pawz is right (above) about specialized Martingale collars for IGs. I don't know a particular brand or source to recommend. 

Bill

 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 11:21 AM, Indigo Blue said:

 A wide martingale type? Maybe that would work? Do you already have one of these? If your dog can pull out of a harness, this one might be safer.

https://www.amazon.com/EXPAWLORER-Martingale-Collars-Heavy-Collar/dp/B071RGLS2R/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=wide%2Bmartingale%2Bcollars%2Bfor%2Bdogs&qid=1566497988&s=gateway&sr=8-4&th=1

 

On 8/22/2019 at 11:41 AM, Pawz4me said:

That's exactly the type of collar she needs, but it'll probably need to be much smaller than those sizes. It can be hard to find such a small size from one of the commercial manufacturers, but people on Etsy make them. Here's one seller with excellent reviews I just found with a quick search (there are lots of others).

 

On 8/22/2019 at 11:46 AM, Indigo Blue said:

 

Oooh, I see. The Italian greyhounds are the smaller size. I can see that might be harder to find. And I didn't look to see that you'd already recommended it. Anyway, those wide collars really are beautiful. 🙂

 

On 8/22/2019 at 11:53 AM, Pawz4me said:

I've never been a huge collector of collars, but if I had a sight hound I'd have to add a budget category for them. 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 1:11 PM, Ktgrok said:

Same. I almost want to get a sighthound just for the collars, lol. 

 

Thank you SO MUCH for the guidance, everyone! I can totally see how the Martingale collar would work for her. And that Etsy shop is amazing!! Their collars look so comfortable and they are gorgeous. And um... the fleece snood jammies?? I know what I’m getting my dog for Christmas. 🤣 Those things are perfectly ridiculous and she will love them.

[Lori D.]

43 minutes ago, Pen said:

... the Guide Dogs group in Boring are where the local puppies being raised are coming from. 

They may lose Labs from their program too, especially if they have higher numbers to start with, but “all” ( much smaller total numbers than your group) Lab puppies I have met who are part of the program have seemed rock solid! One who was being raised by family of a friend of Ds almost seemed like a fake dog—hard to imagine the amazing calm of a young puppy in the midst of homeschooling frenzy.  

ETA: not a very young puppy — around 8 months old- leaving for advanced training when I met him.  

It really is amazing how when that jacket and the head collar go on, even a young puppy, just 4-5 months old, knows it's time to go to work, and they get very focused.

By 8 months, we are taking them out regularly on a lot of outings; 2 of our group's families have kids in middle/high school grades and the kids regularly take the puppies to classes all day with them. Another 2 young ladies in the group are university students, and take their puppies on campus. A few other group members can take the puppies to work with them for, and the puppies just chill under their desks. When I puppy sit, I have taken puppies on the bus, to "big box" stores, grocery shopping, the plant nursery, to church, the movie theater, the mall, into school classrooms, to presentations, to the homeschool graduation ceremony, and everywhere I can think of to try and give the puppies as many different outings as possible so they aren't "thrown" by anything. (:D
 

43 minutes ago, Pen said:

... ETA: not a very young puppy — around 8 months old- leaving for advanced training when I met him.  

Wow -- 8 months is VERY young to head back to for guide dog training! The puppies in our group don't head back until they are between 14-16 months. I think 1 was just turning 13 months old -- she just graduated and is one of our working guides now!

Edited August 25, 2019 by Lori D.

[Pen]

 

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Wow -- 8 months is VERY young to head back to for guide dog training! The puppies in our group don't head back until they are between 14-16 months. I think 1 was just turning 13 months old -- she just graduated and is one of our working guides now!

 

No, a communication confusion!  

I meant that I had frequent meetings with the puppy from when he was around 8 months old (don’t recall exact age) through to when he did leave for his advanced training, which was a few months after that.   After which the family promptly got their next puppy...

The context of my seeing him was at a homeschooling co-op and outings and events related to that, so, like he was amazingly calm and unflappable in the midst of everything preschoolers to high schoolers were doing, outing to laser tag and kids running around in the dark “shooting” each other, etc, etc.  

I’d seen quite a few of the Guide Dog puppies over the years, and this one was remarkable.  If any of it was possible to pass on to next generation it would have been nice IMO to have him sire pups, but he may have been neutered already.  

It was a very different personality than my dog. Or, more significantly, a very different personality than my dogs’ parents who were both working SD’s, but for sighted Iraq war vets who had other types of problems (and not the same as each other)  and different types (not so much breed as temperament)  of dogs were more helpful.  

[sheryl]

16 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Yes. Even top experienced trainers make errors.  And most owners make quite a lot.  Dogs are quite resilient and forgiving luckily. And Labs are generally a fairly easy breed.  And remarkably adept learners.  They certainly catch onto English faster than we seem able to learn their language.

 If you want to get and raise a puppy now, I’m sure you’ll do fine.

 I was just concerned you might be being pushed into a huge puppy job that you weren’t quite wanting.  

Well, this will be our 3rd puppy.  We were younger when we had 1, older for 2 and older still for this one.  It's not that I don't want to but it is more difficult to get up at 3 am now than it was when 1st puppy came along and our dd needed that wee morning feeding!  🙂   DH isn't pushing. I'd be happy with an older dog or puppy but I know I'll be tired with this puppy until she settles a bit.  

[sheryl]

16 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, cue is basically another word for command, it just sounds nicer, lol. And it's used in other learning situations, not just training dogs, so it carried over. 

And yes, you move to praise, pats, etc but when you give praise instead of a treat you do NOT use the marker. Marker always goes with the treat or some other tangible reward. So when you phase out treats you phase out the marker as well, they go together. You can give a treat without a marker, but don't use the marker without a treat. 

Thanks!

[Spy Car]

17 hours ago, Pen said:

 

A cue is what the dog understands as a signal to do something.  So ideally that will be the same as your command word.  But it could be that unrealized by you each time you said/say “come” you reached/reach up and touch(ed) your ear— and the ear touch was the actual cue the dog learned to respond to.   (And this sort of thing is actually pretty common, where a dog is taking some cue that the owner doesn’t realize she’s giving andvthe dog hasn’t actually learned the command word at all.)

The reward is similarly whatever the dog feels rewarded by.  You hope it will be the food treat you have, but as I posted above I have had dogs that don’t feel rewarded by food.  

A really over the top (with happy excited voice and petting and great gusto and enthusiasm) telling a dog she’s the smartest best dog ever when she pees would likely be more useful than offering a food treat she doesn’t like.  

 

There are strong cues, like hand signals, that I always teach. And some that are more subtle.

An example of the latter is that when I have a dog sitting in a "heel" position, if I want him to commence with me, I will not only say "heel" but will also "cue" the dog by setting off using my left foot (which is the one next to the dog).

If I do not want my dog to proceed with me (but to remain seated) I will give a "stay" command verbally, give a hand signal at the same time (which is an open hand which signals: "Stop!"), AND I will also cue the dog by stepping out with the right foot (on the away side) as a cue not to follow me.

I try not to confuse my dogs by relying on the foot cue alone (sans commands) generally speaking, but the foot cue alone is enough to trigger the proper response when put to the test.

Bill

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

There are strong cues, like hand signals, that I always teach. And some that are more subtle.

An example of the latter is that when I have a dog sitting in a "heel" position, if I want him to commence with me, I will not only say "heel" but will also "cue" the dog by setting off using my left foot (which is the one next to the dog).

If I do not want my dog to proceed with me (but to remain seated) I will give a "stay" command verbally, give a hand signal at the same time (which is an open hand which signals: "Stop!"), AND I will also cue the dog by stepping out with the right foot (on the away side) as a cue not to follow me.

I try not to confuse my dogs by relying on the foot cue alone (sans commands) generally speaking, but the foot cue alone is enough to trigger the proper response when put to the test.

Bill

I've decided after reading this thread to learn some of the puppy basic commands this week using spoken word AND hand signals.   It just makes sense to me.   Thanks!  

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

I've decided after reading this thread to learn some of the puppy basic commands this week using spoken word AND hand signals.   It just makes sense to me.   Thanks!  

Next we can discuss adding a whistle 

Bill

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

Next we can discuss adding a whistle 

Bill

Chuckling again here! 🙂 Ironically, Bill, I was going to get caught up on this thread and ask about that.  Also, do you have a link/yt tutorial that is hand-gesture specific?  There was another question and I don't remember right now!  But, wouldn't the whistle replace the clicker? 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Chuckling again here! 🙂 Ironically, Bill, I was going to get caught up on this thread and ask about that.  Also, do you have a link/yt tutorial that is hand-gesture specific?  There was another question and I don't remember right now!  But, wouldn't the whistle replace the clicker? 

No, he's talking about using the whistle as a cue, not as a marker. Different use. He's talking about how gun dogs or herding dogs are trained to obey at a distance, where they may not be able to hear or see their handler, via whistle commands/cues. Versus using a whistle as a marker, ala trained dolphins.