New Puppy we are considering! Need list to buy and questions! UPDATE !!! SEPT 4, May 3 - PICTURES!!!

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Almost there Sheryl! (LOL)

You FIRST "mark" desired behavior with "Nice!" (or other "marker" word/sound/clicker). THEN you reward (kibble -- or high value food treat if using that). Another way to think about it: the "marking" is instant feedback for the dog and draws their attention to what they did. The reward is the positive reinforcement follow-up, (and if it takes you a minute to wrestle it out of your bag or pocket, it's okay, because the dog knows it is coming, and stays attentive to you).

Also, if you are using "Nice!" as your marker word, then you ONLY ever use that word for marking behavior, followed by the kibble reward, and NEVER use otherwise -- so never as part of the verbal praise. For verbal praise, you can say whatever ELSE you want in that encouraging tone of voice ("what a good dog1" "you are my smart girl!" "good __(dog's name___").

Lori, OK! 🙂  So, is this correct?  The first thing the person/owner does is MARK the desired behavior with verbal praise "nice".  This is a "place holder/acknowledgment of the desired behavior by marking this action in the whole process.  Is that right?  At that point and immediately/split second after "marking" (acknowledging) behavior you offer REWARD which is kibble or high value treat.  ??? Actions for obedience training are followed/rewarded with the reward of kibble/hvt.   

So, verbal praise and encouragement is good girl, good name of puppy, good dog.  That is just offered on occasion here and there?  No pattern?  BUT, a chosen "marker" word like nice STARTS the process to then reward with food treat (assuming desired action was obedient).

Is that right?  A pp mentioned (Katie, you, someone) here, I think, that you can over praise a dog saying good girl all the time and the dog might be confused b/c they didn't "earn" it.  HELP ME!  🙂

[Lori D.]

47 minutes ago, sheryl said:

... So, is this correct?  The first thing the person/owner does is MARK the desired behavior with verbal praise "nice".  This is a "place holder/acknowledgment of the desired behavior by marking this action in the whole process.  Is that right?  At that point and immediately/split second after "marking" (acknowledging) behavior you offer REWARD which is kibble or high value treat....

Yes, that's the order.

Just two little quibbles, LOL:

1. timing quibble -- the reward (kibble or high value treat) does NOT have to be instantaneous -- what is instantaneous is MARKING the behavior (drawing the dog's attention to it); if it takes a minute or so to get the reward (piece of kibble or high value treat) to the dog, it is fine, as that is the positive reinforcement of for the behavior that has already been "marked" -- you want to draw the dog's attention to the desired behavior, not to the food reward. The dogs quickly learn that the marker word is only ever used to MARK (point out) desired behavior (and then reinforced positively with a food reward). The dog is never rewarded with food when you say "good girl" or other verbal praise -- only after you say the marker word ("Nice!", or other word, or clicker).  You want the dog to connect the marker word to the behavior, rather than associate the idea of "Nice!" -- "oh a pice of kibble is going to fly into my mouth right NOW!" LOL.

2. termininology quibble -- whatever word you use to MARK the desired behavior is your MARKER (so, "Nice!", or other word, or clicker) -- a MARKER is NOT verbal praise, and never used as praise. Marking a behavior has the function of "pointing out desired behavior" to the dog. Praising has the function of encouraging the dog ("you're doing a great job, keep it up!"). Different words/terms for different functions.
 

47 minutes ago, sheryl said:

...A pp mentioned (Katie, you, someone) here, I think, that you can over praise a dog saying good girl all the time and the dog might be confused b/c they didn't "earn" it.  HELP ME!...

I think if you can see the difference in use between a "marker" word and "verbal praise" (see #2 above), that really eliminates confusion with the dog. I suppose it's possible to over-praise a dog, but I have not seen that happen with any of the Guide Dog puppies/raisers. The dogs quickly learn that the marker word is only ever used to MARK (point out) desired behavior (and then reinforced positively with a food reward). The dog is NEVER rewarded with food when you say "good girl" or other verbal praise -- ONLY reward after you say the marker word ("Nice!", or other word, or clicker). And once the dog is trained and the rate of marking/rewarding is just at an occasional reinforcement level, it's not like you now substitute a constant stream of "good dog" and/or giving a pat while out and walking or giving the dog a command, lol. Just the occasional encouragement to let the dog know you're there and still in communication. If the dog does something noteworthy, like if you're out walking in the neighborhood and your dog looks at but stays loose leash and does not lunge at a passing dog, then YES, MARK and REWARD -- don't just say "good girl" -- you want to point out and reinforce that good choice.

I'm betting that if you sat in on a few classes where they teach people how to do positive reward training with their pets that it would all click for you quickly -- it's so much easier to "get" it when you see it rather than trying to make sense of a written description. 😉

Wishing you all the BEST with your new puppy! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lori D.

[Spy Car]

@sheryl,

This has been the greatest thread. You've received tons of great advice from so many knowledgeable dog owners. I know it will help you and hope the thread is linked to in the future to help others. Great stuff.

I do have one small difference of opinion with regard to the timing of rewards. As seen in the first video (Guide Dog Training) linked by Pen above, the reward is too late in my estimation. I believe the treat should be in hand (and is what I mean by "on the nose") so that when a pup's behavior (like heeling) is perfect, the praise and treat come together immediately . Fumbling for a reward seconds after offering praise is not as optimal IMO. Misses a "conditioning" window for no good reason.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but on this small point I think the Guide Dog approach could be improved. Especially with a young pup.

In the second video, the guy acts like a complete loon with the dog (which is awesome!!). Look at that play! The dog is loving it. Very good. But when they go for a walk, the man is kind of boring. Aide from the treat vs no-treat (and words vs wordless) approach differences, the dropped energy stands out to me.

Eventually one needs to move from quiet non-distracting places to busier places to train. As pups can't ONLY behave where there are no distractions. So having "their person" being the most interesting thing in a pup's environment in the (appropriately short) training moments is a key to effectively training young puppies. As with treat frequency, the need to "entertain" trainees fades with time.

Bill

Edited August 23, 2019 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

28 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

@sheryl,

This has been the greatest thread. You've received tons of great advice from so many knowledgeable dog owners. I know it will help you and hope the thread is linked to in the future to help others. Great stuff.

I do have one small difference of opinion with regard to the timing of rewards. As seen in the first video (Guide Dog Training) linked by Pen above, the reward is too late in my estimation. I believe the treat should be in hand (and is what I mean by "on the nose") so that when a pup's behavior (like heeling) is perfect, the praise and treat come together immediately . Fumbling for a reward seconds after offering praise is not as optimal IMO. Misses a "conditioning" window for no good reason.

Bill

If the puppy is already conditioned to know the marker (Nice or a clicker or whatever) than it is fine if the actual food is later. The dog's brain will respond to the marker just as it would to the food itself. It's actually the reason for using the marker - you can be much more precise with timing using a marker than the actual treat. 

But you have to have conditioned the dog to know that the marker = treat first. 

So you classically condition the marker=treat association, then use the marker to do operant conditioning. 

If the dog is NOT conditioned already to know marker=treat then you are correct, the reward needs to be RIGHT THER RIGHT THEN. 

Science is fun!

[ktgrok]

The marker (be it a word or a click from a clicker) is saying "yes! That thing! that bit right there! That's what I want!"

Think of it as capturing a picture of the desired behavior, that moment in time. 

Now, you absolutely can train dogs with rewards/treats without a marker word/clicker. You just have to be MUCH faster at delivering the reward at tchhe right moment. The marker acts as a "bridge" until the dog gets the treat. 

Sort of like getting a paper check after you did a job. It's not ACTUALLY money, but you will react as if it is cash, because you know it can be converted to cash. 

[Spy Car]

23 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

If the puppy is already conditioned to know the marker (Nice or a clicker or whatever) than it is fine if the actual food is later. The dog's brain will respond to the marker just as it would to the food itself. It's actually the reason for using the marker - you can be much more precise with timing using a marker than the actual treat. 

But you have to have conditioned the dog to know that the marker = treat first. 

So you classically condition the marker=treat association, then use the marker to do operant conditioning. 

If the dog is NOT conditioned already to know marker=treat then you are correct, the reward needs to be RIGHT THER RIGHT THEN. 

Science is fun!

Correct. Since we are discussing initial training with a 9 week old puppy, I think the optimal timing is to "mark" the behavior (be it "good dog", "nice", a clicker, or whatever form of praise) with an immediate reward being timed in unison.

One can get sloppier later, if necessary, but early precision is important to the conditioning process.

Bill

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Correct. Since we are discussing initial training with a 9 week old puppy, I think the optimal timing is to "mark" the behavior (be it "good dog", "nice", a clicker, or whatever form of praise) with an immediate reward being timed in unison.

One can get sloppier later, if necessary, but early precision is important to the conditioning process.

Bill

 

 

 

 

Ah, see I've always conditioned the marker first, without any training. So I'd click, give a treat. click, give a treat, click give a treat, varying it so it's not a predictable pace. Takes about 5 -10 minutes and then after that they already know that click = treat and you don't have to be super precise with the treat. This worked well when I taught puppy classes as novice owners usually had crappy treat handling skills, lol. 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

...I do have one small difference of opinion with regard to the timing of rewards. As seen in the first video (Guide Dog Training) linked by Pen above, the reward is too late in my estimation. I believe the treat should be in hand (and is what I mean by "on the nose") so that when a pup's behavior (like heeling) is perfect, the praise and treat come together immediately . Fumbling for a reward seconds after offering praise is not as optimal IMO. Misses a "conditioning" window for no good reason.

I didn't want to bog things down or unnecessarily complicate the explanation, but yes, Guide Dogs' method with the "baby puppies" does do near instantaneous treating, esp. when moving from luring into position, to giving a command. (BTW, similar to a comment of yours up thread about also using hand signals -- Guide Dogs also has us start with hand signals, then move to hand signal with vocal command, and then eventually to vocal command.) As the Guide Dog puppy gets solid with the command, the handler starts to draw out the time a bit between marking behavior and reward. I believe the rationale here is move the dog to understanding that the "mark" is for the behavior, as eventually the guide dog is going to have to make decisions about behavior -- guiding the unsighted partner around obstacles, and be able to do so with self-control to ignore distractions.

For example, when the puppy first learns to stand on the paw pad at the handler's left side, as soon as the front paws hit that paw pad, you mark ("Nice") and immediately reward -- in fact you "pez" reward -- rapid delivery of piece of kibble after kibble, to reward puppy for staying in that position, and to get the puppy to associate standing at the left side is a wonderful place to be.

Guide Dogs does not have us keep a food reward in the hand except for luring, so you learn to be very quick at pulling kibble from the pouch, one hand after the other, or to dispense one at a time "pez" style from several in one hand. But you always start with empty hands so the puppy starts immediately to make association with the marker word and behavior, not food and behavior.

There are many ways to train a dog, and I'm only presenting the Guide Dogs method, as that is the method I am familiar with, and that I need to follow when I puppy sit the Guide Dog puppies to maintain consistency for the dogs. Most dogs are not going into service dog training, which allows for much variation for individual dog (and handler!) temperaments and needs. 😉

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lori D.

[Spy Car]

25 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I didn't want to bog things down or unnecessarily complicate the explanation, but yes, Guide Dogs' method with the "baby puppies" does do near instantaneous treating, esp. when moving from luring into position, to giving a command. (BTW, similar to a comment of yours up thread about also using hand signals -- Guide Dogs also has us start with hand signals, then move to hand signal with vocal command, and then eventually to vocal command.) As the Guide Dog puppy gets solid with the command, then there the handler starts to draw out the time between marking behavior and reward. I believe the rationale here is move the dog to understanding that the "mark" is for the behavior, as eventually the guide dog is going to have to make decisions about behavior -- guiding the unsighted partner around obstacles, and be able to do so with self-control to ignore distractions.

For example, when the puppy first learns to stand on the paw pad at the handler's left side, as soon as the front paws hit that paw pad, you mark ("Nice") and immediately reward -- in fact you "pez" reward -- rapid delivery of piece of kibble after kibble, to reward puppy for staying in that position, and to get the puppy to associate standing at the left side is a wonderful place to be.

Guide Dogs does not have us keep a food reward in the hand except for luring, so you learn to be very quick at pulling kibble from the pouch, one hand after the other, or to dispense one at a time "pez" style from several in one hand. But you always start with empty hands so the puppy starts immediately to make association with the marker word and behavior, not food and behavior.

There are many ways to train a dog, and I'm only presenting the Guide Dogs method, as that is the method I am familiar with, and that I need to follow when I puppy sit the Guide Dog puppies to maintain consistency for the dogs. Most dogs are not going into service dog training, which allows for much variation for individual dog (and handler!) temperaments and needs. 😉

So the differences are, indeed, quite few.

As I said, I do not want to make a mountain out of a molehill. As long as the association between good behavior and reward/praise is made, it is all good.

As I said earlier, it is my belief that training an average puppy is stupendously easy. Almost any method, if applied consistently, works. And--especially after the clarification--my remaining difference with the Guide Dog approach falls into "splitting hairs." A person following either variation with consistency will be set up for success. No doubt.

I would advocate weaning from "treat rewards" by reducing the relative frequency of teats over time (while still praising/marking the behavior) instead of expanding the time gap between the praise/marking and treating, but not a hill to die on ASAIK.

Anyone reading this thread will walk away with tools for great success. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread. Good work all around!

Cookies for everyone. LOL.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

9 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

...Cookies for everyone. LOL.

lol -- cookies for all

I've only been with the Guide Dog puppy raising group and putting the techniques into practice for just 2 years as of next month, and I always feel like I am concentrating so hard during training sessions that I DO deserve a cookie (or two!)! (:D 
 

9 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

... .I would advocate weaning from "treat rewards" by reducing the relative frequency of teats over time (while still praising/marking the behavior) instead of expanding the time gap between the praise/marking and treating,

Yes, we do both of these. It's amazing how much the puppies can do and how well-mannered they are by about 4-5 months old, and can manage short outings to stores at that age without that much rewarding. We slowly ramp them up in the types of outings and outing duration, but by about 9 months, they can go to a movie with you and they just curl up at your feet and stay quiet for the whole movie -- usually they just go to sleep, even with all the action scene explosions and what not going on in the sound track...

It's been such a privilege to work with these amazing dogs. About 6 of the puppies that have been raised in our small puppy raising groups are now working guides! Two other dogs are working in other service areas -- one is a diabetes alert dog, and another is a service dog with a military veteran who has special physical/emotional needs from PTSD. Dogs are just so awesome!

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lori D.

[Spy Car]

9 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

lol -- cookies for all

I've only been with the Guide Dog puppy raising group and putting the techniques into practice for just 2 years as of next month, and I always feel like I am concentrating so hard during training sessions that I DO deserve a cookie (or two!)! (:D 
 

Yes, we do both of these. It's amazing how much the puppies can do and how well-mannered they are by about 4-5 months old, and can manage short outings to stores at that age without that much rewarding. We slowly ramp them up in the types of outings and outing duration, but by about 9 months, they can go to a movie with you and they just curl up at your feet and stay quiet for the whole movie -- usually they just go to sleep, even with all the action scene explosions and what not going on in the sound track...

It's been such a privilege to work with these amazing dogs. About 6 of the puppies that have been raised in our small puppy raising groups are now working guides! Two other dogs are working in other service areas -- one is a diabetes alert dog, and another is a service dog with a military veteran who has special physical/emotional needs from PTSD. Dogs are just so awesome!

You are doing great work!

Knowing myself, it would be so hard to give up puppy that I'd reared. I can't imagine that's easy for anyone.

I'm sure the people who ultimately receive these dogs are supremely appreciative. 

Two cookies for you!

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

37 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

So the differences are, indeed, quite few.

As I said, I do not want to make a mountain out of a molehill. As long as the association between good behavior and reward/praise is made, it is all good.

As I said earlier, it is my belief that training an average puppy is stupendously easy. Almost any method, if applied consistently, works. And--especially after the clarification--my remaining difference with the Guide Dog approach falls into "splitting hairs." A person following either variation with consistency will be set up for success. No doubt.

I would advocate weaning from "treat rewards" by reducing the relative frequency of teats over time (while still praising/marking the behavior) instead of expanding the time gap between the praise/marking and treating, but not a hill to die on ASAIK.

Anyone reading this thread will walk away with tools for great success. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread. Good work all around!

Cookies for everyone. LOL.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. I've done several different ways, and they all work if you are consistent and clear. 

And with the marker training you DO wean off the treats, going to variable treating similar to a slot machine....most of the time you won't "win" but you never know when you Will win so you keep playing 🙂  One famous dog trainer is known to hide a hamburger in a tree at the local dog park about twice a year, BEFORE taking her dogs there. Partway through the fun she calls them back to her (which she does several time every trip) but THIS time she pulls a hamburger out of tree as a reward! The dogs think she is magic, and since they never know which time will be the time she repeats the trick they always come when called, lol. 

But, you never ever use the marker word if not giving a treat. So you wean off both the marker word and the treat, and go to regular praise, petting, etc. The marker word and treat always go together, otherwise the association weakens and the mark will no longer activate the brain the same way the actual reward does. Kind of like if your paper check no longer equated to actual money some of the time...you'd quickly stop trusting checks! If someone wants to give you a kind word or buy you a drink rather than paying you for say, giving them a lift to the airport that's fine, but if they say they are going to pay you and give a check but it bounces, you likely won't give them a ride again. 

But again, I've taught dogs just fine without using markers at all, just lure and reward. Markers sharpen things up a bit, and are a huge help for distance work, but not needed to have a well trained dog. 

And we ARE talking about a well bred labrador here. It would be hard to mess one up. Seriously, ANY training method should work on a well bred labrador. especially if you are just looking for house manners. 

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

You are doing great work!

Knowing myself, it would be so hard to give up puppy that I'd reared. I can't imagine that's easy for anyone.

I'm sure the people who ultimately receive these dogs are supremely appreciative. 

Two cookies for you!

Bill

 

 

Same. I'd LOVE the training part, but after the depression that hit me after we gave up our foster dog, Arya, I know I can't do it. hell, I'm about to sob just typing her name and she was only here two a half months! Which reminds me, I should check in with her owner and see how she is. 

Everyone has gifts...I had no trouble working in veterinary medicine and I know many can't handle that...as far as injuries, trauma, euthanasia. I can do that. But care for a dog for a year and give it up? Nope. Not enough antidepressants in the world. 

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Yes, that's the order.

Just two little quibbles, LOL:

1. timing quibble -- the reward (kibble or high value treat) does NOT have to be instantaneous -- what is instantaneous is MARKING the behavior (drawing the dog's attention to it); if it takes a minute or so to get the reward (piece of kibble or high value treat) to the dog, it is fine, as that is the positive reinforcement of for the behavior that has already been "marked" -- you want to draw the dog's attention to the desired behavior, not to the food reward. The dogs quickly learn that the marker word is only ever used to MARK (point out) desired behavior (and then reinforced positively with a food reward). The dog is never rewarded with food when you say "good girl" or other verbal praise -- only after you say the marker word ("Nice!", or other word, or clicker).  You want the dog to connect the marker word to the behavior, rather than associate the idea of "Nice!" -- "oh a pice of kibble is going to fly into my mouth right NOW!" LOL.

2. termininology quibble -- whatever word you use to MARK the desired behavior is your MARKER (so, "Nice!", or other word, or clicker) -- a MARKER is NOT verbal praise, and never used as praise. Marking a behavior has the function of "pointing out desired behavior" to the dog. Praising has the function of encouraging the dog ("you're doing a great job, keep it up!"). Different words/terms for different functions.
 

I think if you can see the difference in use between a "marker" word and "verbal praise" (see #2 above), that really eliminates confusion with the dog. I suppose it's possible to over-praise a dog, but I have not seen that happen with any of the Guide Dog puppies/raisers. The dogs quickly learn that the marker word is only ever used to MARK (point out) desired behavior (and then reinforced positively with a food reward). The dog is NEVER rewarded with food when you say "good girl" or other verbal praise -- ONLY reward after you say the marker word ("Nice!", or other word, or clicker). And once the dog is trained and the rate of marking/rewarding is just at an occasional reinforcement level, it's not like you now substitute a constant stream of "good dog" and/or giving a pat while out and walking or giving the dog a command, lol. Just the occasional encouragement to let the dog know you're there and still in communication. If the dog does something noteworthy, like if you're out walking in the neighborhood and your dog looks at but stays loose leash and does not lunge at a passing dog, then YES, MARK and REWARD -- don't just say "good girl" -- you want to point out and reinforce that good choice.

I'm betting that if you sat in on a few classes where they teach people how to do positive reward training with their pets that it would all click for you quickly -- it's so much easier to "get" it when you see it rather than trying to make sense of a written description. 😉

Wishing you all the BEST with your new puppy! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Ok, the marker word is a word that point out/calls attention to, right?  It's not verbal praise.  

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

@sheryl,

This has been the greatest thread. You've received tons of great advice from so many knowledgeable dog owners. I know it will help you and hope the thread is linked to in the future to help others. Great stuff.

I do have one small difference of opinion with regard to the timing of rewards. As seen in the first video (Guide Dog Training) linked by Pen above, the reward is too late in my estimation. I believe the treat should be in hand (and is what I mean by "on the nose") so that when a pup's behavior (like heeling) is perfect, the praise and treat come together immediately . Fumbling for a reward seconds after offering praise is not as optimal IMO. Misses a "conditioning" window for no good reason.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but on this small point I think the Guide Dog approach could be improved. Especially with a young pup.

In the second video, the guy acts like a complete loon with the dog (which is awesome!!). Look at that play! The dog is loving it. Very good. But when they go for a walk, the man is kind of boring. Aide from the treat vs no-treat (and words vs wordless) approach differences, the dropped energy stands out to me.

Eventually one needs to move from quiet non-distracting places to busier places to train. As pups can't ONLY behave where there are no distractions. So having "their person" being the most interesting thing in a pup's environment in the (appropriately short) training moments is a key to effectively training young puppies. As with treat frequency, the need to "entertain" trainees fades with time.

Bill

Bill, I agree there can be too much lag time, but my question is this - one of the pp's or videos said to reward like crazy now that she's a newborn pup.  But, over time you lessen the reward food so they obey the verbal command.  How do you handle it?  How old is your dog?  How often do you still reward b/c I'm she s/he knows these commands?  

Also, I'm wondering when do people let a dog just be a dog.  Anyone can answer this.  We don't mind if they jump on the bed but they're too big to sleep there all night and if I wasn't such a sprawler we'd like them.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Ok, the marker word is a word that point out/calls attention to, right?  It's not verbal praise.  

 

It is any sound that calls attention to a moment as close as possible to desired behavior or even an approximation of a desired behavior, progress in that direction.

It would not have to be a sound. It could be a light flash. It could be a touch.

It is part of “operant conditioning”. 

 

A “reward” incidentally is what is rewarding to the dog.  If I offer a chunk of liver, but the particular dog hates liver, then liver isn’t a reward.

 

.... 

 

If you aren’t quite ready for puppy yet and there’s another litter from another breeder arriving in September, maybe waiting a while would be better.

 

 

 

 I do sort of prefer new puppy starts that aren’t fall to winter because I find it much easier to do housetraining, particular the pee and poop outside part when it’s warmer and drier weather. But if you live in some very hot buggy climate the fall winter might be more pleasant for going out to do business every couple of hours.  

I gather you want a female Lab? 

I can see a gender choice possibly being significant, but color sounded maybe of importance to you too?  Is there a reason, if so?

 

[Pen]

 

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Also, I'm wondering when do people let a dog just be a dog.  Anyone can answer this.  We don't mind if they jump on the bed but they're too big to sleep there all night and if I wasn't such a sprawler we'd like them.  

 

 Once  housetrained  both in sense of not peeing/pooping inside, and in the sense of not chewing up furniture, electric cord, etc.   my answer is “ most of the time” — but by then the dog is “just a dog” yes, but one who has has been domesticated and understands the house rules, which is different than a wild unmannered dog creating havoc.    

 

Every so often havoc breaks out, inevitably initiated by a human dc, not by a dog, and I tell them to take the roughhousing and running about to the outdoors.  

Our house rules do allow dogs on beds. They co-sleep with a human once they can get through the night without a pee type accident.  

Up to current dog, dogs weren’t allowed on armchairs.  Current dog, who is smaller than former dogs, got special arm chair privileges.  I hope I don’t regret that since next dog should overlap this one and will probably expect same privileges even if it’s another 100plus pounder. 

In a sense, one could think of it as some training allows the dog to “just be a dog” much of the time safely.  This is especially true for things like long offleash romps.  A dog who will come when called, will sit and stay at side of road if a car is coming, can have a much more free life of happy running and sniffing and other dog things. 

[Spy Car]

22 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill, I agree there can be too much lag time, but my question is this - one of the pp's or videos said to reward like crazy now that she's a newborn pup.  But, over time you lessen the reward food so they obey the verbal command.  How do you handle it?  How old is your dog?  How often do you still reward b/c I'm she s/he knows these commands?  

Also, I'm wondering when do people let a dog just be a dog.  Anyone can answer this.  We don't mind if they jump on the bed but they're too big to sleep there all night and if I wasn't such a sprawler we'd like them.  

My dog is now 5.5 years old. I rarely do treat training anymore. I will on occasion, just to reinforce training.

As I will do formal training if anything slips. We are not doing competitive obedience, so I don't feel the need to go to the nth degree on matters like heeling precision.

Dogs on beds does not work for me.

Otherwise I always want my dog to be a dog. Just a well-trained one who is safe living in a suburb of a big city.

Bill

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If the puppy is already conditioned to know the marker (Nice or a clicker or whatever) than it is fine if the actual food is later. The dog's brain will respond to the marker just as it would to the food itself. It's actually the reason for using the marker - you can be much more precise with timing using a marker than the actual treat. 

But you have to have conditioned the dog to know that the marker = treat first. 

So you classically condition the marker=treat association, then use the marker to do operant conditioning. 

If the dog is NOT conditioned already to know marker=treat then you are correct, the reward needs to be RIGHT THER RIGHT THEN. 

Science is fun!

Got it!  Now, who will demonstrate this and upload it (Katie, Bill, Lori, Pen, anyone?) 🙂  There must be a fair amount of science in the technique due to the timing of the sequences.  I've got to get this right.  Condition the dog first reward/kibble immediately then progress to marker and reward.  ???

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Got it!  Now, who will demonstrate this and upload it (Katie, Bill, Lori, Pen, anyone?) 🙂  There must be a fair amount of science in the technique due to the timing of the sequences.  I've got to get this right.  Condition the dog first reward/kibble immediately then progress to marker and reward.  ???

Kibble? You mean a "high value treat," right? 

I'd link rewards with good behaviors and praise straight away. Good behaviors are what ought to be "conditioned" IMO. Everything else follows.

Treats can be tiny bits of meat. Did I mention meat?

Bill

 

 

 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Got it!  Now, who will demonstrate this and upload it (Katie, Bill, Lori, Pen, anyone?) 🙂  There must be a fair amount of science in the technique due to the timing of the sequences.  I've got to get this right.  Condition the dog first reward/kibble immediately then progress to marker and reward.  ???

 

There are lots of videos  on this already.  YouTube and purchasable.

the one I linked above with Zak George and Airedale pup is but one of many, many you can find.

 

karen Pryor has long been a name in the clicker training world

 

if you want to use “nice” or “good” or a tongue click rather than a clicker, you can follow same procedures as for clicker training, but with your chosen word or sound

if you’d prefer to use just luring, no conditioned sound to mark the behavior, check out Ian Dunbar books or videos

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

The marker (be it a word or a click from a clicker) is saying "yes! That thing! that bit right there! That's what I want!"

Think of it as capturing a picture of the desired behavior, that moment in time. 

Now, you absolutely can train dogs with rewards/treats without a marker word/clicker. You just have to be MUCH faster at delivering the reward at tchhe right moment. The marker acts as a "bridge" until the dog gets the treat. 

Sort of like getting a paper check after you did a job. It's not ACTUALLY money, but you will react as if it is cash, because you know it can be converted to cash. 

This is good. So, you are saying in the act of peeing (sorry all, just trying to get to the point), when Sadie is actually in squat position you offer marker ---- "nice"?  Then, the bridge of time reaching for the reward/kibble is reinforcement?

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Ok, the marker word is a word that point out/calls attention to, right?  It's not verbal praise.  

Right. You know how at Sea World the trainer blows a whistle when the dolphin does what they want, and then it swims over to get a fish? That whistle is the marker - it says "yes, that's was good, you get a treat for that!". It's an IOU, basically...I owe you a treat for that thing you did right at that second. I mean, a trainer can't give the dolphin a fish while it is in the midst of leaping through a hoop, so they can blow the whistle as the dolphin jumps through the hoop, marking WHAT the reward is for right when the behavior happens. Then the dolphin can swim over and get the fish. 

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Bill, I agree there can be too much lag time, but my question is this - one of the pp's or videos said to reward like crazy now that she's a newborn pup.  But, over time you lessen the reward food so they obey the verbal command.  How do you handle it?  How old is your dog?  How often do you still reward b/c I'm she s/he knows these commands?  

Also, I'm wondering when do people let a dog just be a dog.  Anyone can answer this.  We don't mind if they jump on the bed but they're too big to sleep there all night and if I wasn't such a sprawler we'd like them.  

Um, I don't know, lol? I don't pay attention. I more often than not don't set out to "do training" with my adult dog. Instead, he wants to go out, so I ask him to sit and then I open the door. He was "rewarded" for sitting by going out the door. But I wasn't "doing training" officially. Or I'm cutting up some chicken and think, "I bet the dogs would like some" so I call them and have them do a sit or a down or whatever. Sometimes I bring a few treats in my pocket when we go for a walk, sometimes I don't. 

And my dogs are allowed on the bed during the day or for snuggles but don't sleep up there. Because they are big, lol. 

15 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Kibble? You mean a "high value treat," right? 

I'd link rewards with good behaviors and praise straight away. Good behaviors are what ought to be "conditioned" IMO. Everything else follows.

Treats can be tiny bits of meat. Did I mention meat?

Bill

 

 

 

That's fine if you aren't using marker training. If you are, you take all of 5 minutes and condition the marker. Then the marker acts on the dog's brain the same way a reward does. So the good behavior is conditioned (using operant conditioning) with the marker, and the marker = reward due to classical conditioning. That extra 5 minutes at the front end more than is compensated for by faster learning for the rest of the dog's life. I've taught a lot of dogs, using everything from old school Koehler methods to lure and reward to marker training, and marker training is an incredibly powerful tool that speeds up learning to the extent it is frankly startling sometimes. But it's not necessary, it's just REALLY cool and amazing and awesome. The results you get vary with the dog, handler skill, etc but I can say that having trained over 100 dogs, the power of it can't be denies once you really have experienced it. 

14 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

There are lots of videos  on this already.  YouTube and purchasable.

the one I linked above with Zak George and Airedale pup is but one of many, many you can find.

 

karen Pryor has long been a name in the clicker training world

 

if you want to use “nice” or “good” or a tongue click rather than a clicker, you can follow same procedures as for clicker training, but with your chosen word or sound

if you’d prefer to use just luring, no conditioned sound to mark the behavior, check out Ian Dunbar books or videos

If you google "charging the clicker" you will I'm sure find videos. Honestly, given the confusion with verbal praise versus a marker, you might very well want to try clicker training itself, with an actual clicker, to start with. You can shift to a marker word later for convenience, but it would eliminate a lot of the confusion. Click=treat, always and forever. You will not always have to click....I don't even know where my clickers ARE right now, but if you do click, you give the reward. 

And there are TONS of clicker training books, videos, etc. 

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, sheryl said:

This is good. So, you are saying in the act of peeing (sorry all, just trying to get to the point), when Sadie is actually in squat position you offer marker ---- "nice"?  Then, the bridge of time reaching for the reward/kibble is reinforcement?

Yes! 

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Ah, see I've always conditioned the marker first, without any training. So I'd click, give a treat. click, give a treat, click give a treat, varying it so it's not a predictable pace. Takes about 5 -10 minutes and then after that they already know that click = treat and you don't have to be super precise with the treat. This worked well when I taught puppy classes as novice owners usually had crappy treat handling skills, lol. 

Correct. Since we are discussing initial training with a 9 week old puppy, I think the optimal timing is to "mark" the behavior (be it "good dog", "nice", a clicker, or whatever form of praise) with an immediate reward being timed in unison.

One can get sloppier later, if necessary, but early precision is important to the conditioning process.

Bill

 

Help me to understand the difference here?  You, Katie, have conditioned the marker - conditioned the "go to word" such as "nice"?  So, the click was the marker and you gave a reward treat?  Instantaneously?  Isn't Bill saying the same thing?  "in unison"?

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Lori D. said:

I didn't want to bog things down or unnecessarily complicate the explanation, but yes, Guide Dogs' method with the "baby puppies" does do near instantaneous treating, esp. when moving from luring into position, to giving a command. (BTW, similar to a comment of yours up thread about also using hand signals -- Guide Dogs also has us start with hand signals, then move to hand signal with vocal command, and then eventually to vocal command.) As the Guide Dog puppy gets solid with the command, the handler starts to draw out the time a bit between marking behavior and reward. I believe the rationale here is move the dog to understanding that the "mark" is for the behavior, as eventually the guide dog is going to have to make decisions about behavior -- guiding the unsighted partner around obstacles, and be able to do so with self-control to ignore distractions.

For example, when the puppy first learns to stand on the paw pad at the handler's left side, as soon as the front paws hit that paw pad, you mark ("Nice") and immediately reward -- in fact you "pez" reward -- rapid delivery of piece of kibble after kibble, to reward puppy for staying in that position, and to get the puppy to associate standing at the left side is a wonderful place to be.

Guide Dogs does not have us keep a food reward in the hand except for luring, so you learn to be very quick at pulling kibble from the pouch, one hand after the other, or to dispense one at a time "pez" style from several in one hand. But you always start with empty hands so the puppy starts immediately to make association with the marker word and behavior, not food and behavior.

There are many ways to train a dog, and I'm only presenting the Guide Dogs method, as that is the method I am familiar with, and that I need to follow when I puppy sit the Guide Dog puppies to maintain consistency for the dogs. Most dogs are not going into service dog training, which allows for much variation for individual dog (and handler!) temperaments and needs. 😉

Thank you!  

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

So the differences are, indeed, quite few.

As I said, I do not want to make a mountain out of a molehill. As long as the association between good behavior and reward/praise is made, it is all good.

As I said earlier, it is my belief that training an average puppy is stupendously easy. Almost any method, if applied consistently, works. And--especially after the clarification--my remaining difference with the Guide Dog approach falls into "splitting hairs." A person following either variation with consistency will be set up for success. No doubt.

I would advocate weaning from "treat rewards" by reducing the relative frequency of teats over time (while still praising/marking the behavior) instead of expanding the time gap between the praise/marking and treating, but not a hill to die on ASAIK.

Anyone reading this thread will walk away with tools for great success. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this thread. Good work all around!

Cookies for everyone. LOL.

Bill

 

😂

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Help me to understand the difference here?  You, Katie, have conditioned the marker - conditioned the "go to word" such as "nice"?  So, the click was the marker and you gave a reward treat?  Instantaneously?  Isn't Bill saying the same thing?  "in unison"?

I don't use clickers. As I train if a dog exhibits a behavior I want to encourage I say: "Good dog!" (or similar) while popping a treat in the same split second in young puppyhood. Praise endures even as treats fade.

Sometimes the pup will start a behavior (like urinating outside) and I'll give the "command word" for such activity (we use "outside") and praise (and ideally reward with treat). Likewise, when a pup is already "coming" I will call him in using a command word then treat/praise.

it is all about positive feedback and conditioning desired behaviors.

Bill

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Absolutely. I've done several different ways, and they all work if you are consistent and clear. 

And with the marker training you DO wean off the treats, going to variable treating similar to a slot machine....most of the time you won't "win" but you never know when you Will win so you keep playing 🙂  One famous dog trainer is known to hide a hamburger in a tree at the local dog park about twice a year, BEFORE taking her dogs there. Partway through the fun she calls them back to her (which she does several time every trip) but THIS time she pulls a hamburger out of tree as a reward! The dogs think she is magic, and since they never know which time will be the time she repeats the trick they always come when called, lol. 

But, you never ever use the marker word if not giving a treat. So you wean off both the marker word and the treat, and go to regular praise, petting, etc. The marker word and treat always go together, otherwise the association weakens and the mark will no longer activate the brain the same way the actual reward does. Kind of like if your paper check no longer equated to actual money some of the time...you'd quickly stop trusting checks! If someone wants to give you a kind word or buy you a drink rather than paying you for say, giving them a lift to the airport that's fine, but if they say they are going to pay you and give a check but it bounces, you likely won't give them a ride again. 

But again, I've taught dogs just fine without using markers at all, just lure and reward. Markers sharpen things up a bit, and are a huge help for distance work, but not needed to have a well trained dog. 

And we ARE talking about a well bred labrador here. It would be hard to mess one up. Seriously, ANY training method should work on a well bred labrador. especially if you are just looking for house manners.  

Same. I'd LOVE the training part, but after the depression that hit me after we gave up our foster dog, Arya, I know I can't do it. hell, I'm about to sob just typing her name and she was only here two a half months! Which reminds me, I should check in with her owner and see how she is. 

Everyone has gifts...I had no trouble working in veterinary medicine and I know many can't handle that...as far as injuries, trauma, euthanasia. I can do that. But care for a dog for a year and give it up? Nope. Not enough antidepressants in the world. 

So,  what we all have been talking about aka you all have been training me is the marker for obedience is used for only puppies up to a certain age and then they age out LOL and at that point the dog is trained to obey commands and you offer verbal praise/pats only?

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Correct. Since we are discussing initial training with a 9 week old puppy, I think the optimal timing is to "mark" the behavior (be it "good dog", "nice", a clicker, or whatever form of praise) with an immediate reward being timed in unison.

One can get sloppier later, if necessary, but early precision is important to the conditioning process.

Bill

 

Help me to understand the difference here?  You, Katie, have conditioned the marker - conditioned the "go to word" such as "nice"?  So, the click was the marker and you gave a reward treat?  Instantaneously?  Isn't Bill saying the same thing?  "in unison"?

What Bil is describing is lure and reward though, not marker training. It is a different thing. And marker training is even MORE effective and amazing than lure and reward training with little puppies. But both work great. Marker training is faster and can be more precise, but either works great. 

As for timing, you want a second pause at least before giving the reward. If done at the same time as the click the dog will not pay attention to the click as it doesn't predict anything. It is concurrent, not predictive. So it is "click-pause-treat". The pause can be half a second or a second, but has to be there. (especially because if you don't pause it is super easy to accidentally start moving to give the treat before clicking which really ruins the whole thing, lol. 

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I don't use clickers. As I train if a dog exhibits a behavior I want to encourage I say: "Good dog!" (or similar) while popping a treat in the same split second in young puppyhood. Praise endures even as treats fade.

Sometimes the pup will start a behavior (like urinating outside) and I'll give the "command word" for such activity (we use "outside") and praise (and ideally reward with treat). Likewise, when a pup is already "coming" I will call him in using a command word then treat/praise.

it is all about positive feedback and conditioning desired behaviors.

Bill

That's fine. You don't clicker train, you don't marker train. You lure and reward. Different, but similar. Having done both types, I can say that in my experience (and university studies, etc) marker training works even better - faster and more precise. One doesn't need to do it though, and will have great results. 

And yes, you fade out the marker/treats and do mostly praise or life rewards, same as you are describing. 

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

So,  what we all have been talking about aka you all have been training me is the marker for obedience is used for only puppies up to a certain age and then they age out LOL and at that point the dog is trained to obey commands and you offer verbal praise/pats only?

Right. No one goes around clicking and popping bits of food every time the dog does something good the rest of his life. It's to teach the behavior. Like the sticker chart for potty training a toddler 🙂

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

It is any sound that calls attention to a moment as close as possible to desired behavior or even an approximation of a desired behavior, progress in that direction.

It would not have to be a sound. It could be a light flash. It could be a touch.

It is part of “operant conditioning”. 

 

A “reward” incidentally is what is rewarding to the dog.  If I offer a chunk of liver, but the particular dog hates liver, then liver isn’t a reward.

 

.... 

 

If you aren’t quite ready for puppy yet and there’s another litter from another breeder arriving in September, maybe waiting a while would be better.

 

 

 

 I do sort of prefer new puppy starts that aren’t fall to winter because I find it much easier to do housetraining, particular the pee and poop outside part when it’s warmer and drier weather. But if you live in some very hot buggy climate the fall winter might be more pleasant for going out to do business every couple of hours.  

I gather you want a female Lab? 

I can see a gender choice possibly being significant, but color sounded maybe of importance to you too?  Is there a reason, if so?

 

Oh no!  I want to be ready.  Please understand I've N E V E R heard these terms so I have to learn.  Hopefully I'll be a quick study and can bring puppy home in about a week.  

Yes, female yellow lab - only because my dh (when we were newly married) and I attended a wedding in my home state.  We went to the mall and back then they had a pet store complete with pets to purchase in the mall.  ??????? Anyway he showed me a yellow lab and having not been real familiar with them, feel in love with them immediately.  Female because I can see the spray accident down and don't know if I'd notice it on an object up.  Does that make sense?  Yellow b/c it's easier to see fleas and ticks.   To be honest, we had the land I'd like 1 of each: black, brown, yellow.  When you see a pic of the 3 lined up it's striking how beautiful it is. 

[ktgrok]

Here is a video on it 

 

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

What Bil is describing is lure and reward though, not marker training....

That's fine. You don't clicker train, you don't marker train. You lure and reward. Different, but similar. Having done both types, I can say that in my experience (and university studies, etc) marker training works even better - faster and more precise. One doesn't need to do it though, and will have great results. 

And yes, you fade out the marker/treats and do mostly praise or life rewards, same as you are describing. 

Right. No one goes around clicking and popping bits of food every time the dog does something good the rest of his life. It's to teach the behavior. Like the sticker chart for potty training a toddler 🙂

Uh no. Not doing "lure and reward."

Almost never is food used as a "lure."

Instead good behaviors are positively reinforced immediately with praise and treats. The key is effectively communicating to the pup what behaviors bring good things. It is very simple.

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

Uh no. Not doing "lure and reward."

Almost never is food used as a "lure."

Instead good behaviors are positively reinforced immediately with praise and treats. The key is effectively communicating to the pup what behaviors bring good things. It is very simple.

Bill

 

 

My mistake - you earlier were talking about heeling using the treat on the nose, so luring I thought. 

Either way not marker training. 
 

IF she wants to do marker training, and it seemed she was interested, I was just trying to help her  understand it. There is a reason for the pause/delay, and when using a conditioned marker that the pause doesn't delay learning, and in fact marker training is about 30% more efficient. It's just different. 

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

Kibble? You mean a "high value treat," right? 

I'd link rewards with good behaviors and praise straight away. Good behaviors are what ought to be "conditioned" IMO. Everything else follows.

Treats can be tiny bits of meat. Did I mention meat?

Bill

 

 

 

My guess is most labs like meat - at least ours did!  Meat is higher value treat!  😁

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Right. You know how at Sea World the trainer blows a whistle when the dolphin does what they want, and then it swims over to get a fish? That whistle is the marker - it says "yes, that's was good, you get a treat for that!". It's an IOU, basically...I owe you a treat for that thing you did right at that second. I mean, a trainer can't give the dolphin a fish while it is in the midst of leaping through a hoop, so they can blow the whistle as the dolphin jumps through the hoop, marking WHAT the reward is for right when the behavior happens. Then the dolphin can swim over and get the fish. 

Um, I don't know, lol? I don't pay attention. I more often than not don't set out to "do training" with my adult dog. Instead, he wants to go out, so I ask him to sit and then I open the door. He was "rewarded" for sitting by going out the door. But I wasn't "doing training" officially. Or I'm cutting up some chicken and think, "I bet the dogs would like some" so I call them and have them do a sit or a down or whatever. Sometimes I bring a few treats in my pocket when we go for a walk, sometimes I don't. 

And my dogs are allowed on the bed during the day or for snuggles but don't sleep up there. Because they are big, lol. 

That's fine if you aren't using marker training. If you are, you take all of 5 minutes and condition the marker. Then the marker acts on the dog's brain the same way a reward does. So the good behavior is conditioned (using operant conditioning) with the marker, and the marker = reward due to classical conditioning. That extra 5 minutes at the front end more than is compensated for by faster learning for the rest of the dog's life. I've taught a lot of dogs, using everything from old school Koehler methods to lure and reward to marker training, and marker training is an incredibly powerful tool that speeds up learning to the extent it is frankly startling sometimes. But it's not necessary, it's just REALLY cool and amazing and awesome. The results you get vary with the dog, handler skill, etc but I can say that having trained over 100 dogs, the power of it can't be denies once you really have experienced it. 

If you google "charging the clicker" you will I'm sure find videos. Honestly, given the confusion with verbal praise versus a marker, you might very well want to try clicker training itself, with an actual clicker, to start with. You can shift to a marker word later for convenience, but it would eliminate a lot of the confusion. Click=treat, always and forever. You will not always have to click....I don't even know where my clickers ARE right now, but if you do click, you give the reward. 

And there are TONS of clicker training books, videos, etc. 

 

OK, the technique you use is marker and treat for obedience/behavior? There may be a delay of a few seconds or so.  But, the association has been made (over time will serve as confirmation when they repeat this process time and again) by the marker and when they complete the task/command they are rewarded with a treat? 

Now Bill is doing the same thing but like you said you can't give a dolphin a fish immediately as a reward.  So, you Katie would tell your sit to sit and upon completion of sitting you offer marker?  Then it takes a split second to complete that command so you then will give him a treat.   Bill, if I'm not mistaken (correct me, Bill) speaks a command to sit and while his dog is "in the process" he offers a marker followed by a treat.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

So,  what we all have been talking about aka you all have been training me is the marker for obedience is used for only puppies up to a certain age and then they age out LOL and at that point the dog is trained to obey commands and you offer verbal praise/pats only?

 

No.  The clicker/marker can be used very effectively with many dogs at any age.  

Not every dog.  My dog who liked to negotiate didn’t like clicker type training.

Current dog loves it.  If I notice a not so good skill (Like recently I noticed his sit at a distance was a problem—and it’s extremely important for if, say, a vehicle is coming and we , dog and I, are on opposite sides of road—I’d want him to sit-stay on his side, not cross to mine.  Well anyway, the clicker is awesome for working at a distance on something like that. ) 

Or if I want to work in something new, I’m apt to pull out a clicker.  Or even for something to keep him exercised mentally indoors during the winter.    

Once he knows something though, he knows it unless we haven’t been using it and he got rusty.    Sit is just “sit” or a finger pointed at him which is my hand gesture for that.     I would not click nor likely treat or praise either—sort of like one no longer praises each bit of ability to count to 10 or do correct addition for most kids who are in high school Algebra.   But once upon a time getting 1, 2, 3 in order was a big deal. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pen

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

What Bil is describing is lure and reward though, not marker training. It is a different thing. And marker training is even MORE effective and amazing than lure and reward training with little puppies. But both work great. Marker training is faster and can be more precise, but either works great. 

As for timing, you want a second pause at least before giving the reward. If done at the same time as the click the dog will not pay attention to the click as it doesn't predict anything. It is concurrent, not predictive. So it is "click-pause-treat". The pause can be half a second or a second, but has to be there. (especially because if you don't pause it is super easy to accidentally start moving to give the treat before clicking which really ruins the whole thing, lol. 

That's fine. You don't clicker train, you don't marker train. You lure and reward. Different, but similar. Having done both types, I can say that in my experience (and university studies, etc) marker training works even better - faster and more precise. One doesn't need to do it though, and will have great results. 

And yes, you fade out the marker/treats and do mostly praise or life rewards, same as you are describing. 

Right. No one goes around clicking and popping bits of food every time the dog does something good the rest of his life. It's to teach the behavior. Like the sticker chart for potty training a toddler 🙂

I get it. I really do even though it seems like I don't.  The terminology is NEW to me. I'd never heard it until Monday when I started this post.  Please know!!! I do NOT doubt your expertise but trying to logically think through this.  It seems like immediate would condition too b/c you're catching them in the act of peeing outside.  But, you're saying their brains may get confused?  Too much stimulation?  They need the predictability and a separation/lapse of time b/t marker and treat so next time these commands build on themselves and they will start to predict based on past associations and positive reinforcement.  

[sheryl]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

No.  The clicker/marker can be used very effectively with many dogs at any age.  

Not every dog.  My dog who liked to negotiate didn’t like clicker type training.

Current dog loves it.  If I notice a not so good skill (Like recently I noticed his sit at a distance was a problem—and it’s extremely important for if, say, a vehicle is coming and we , dog and I, are on opposite sides of road—I’d want him to sit-stay on his side, not cross to mine.  Well anyway, the clicker is awesome for working at a distance on something like that. ) 

Or if I want to work in something new, I’m apt to pull out a clicker.  Or even for something to keep him exercised mentally indoors during the winter.    

Once he knows something though, he knows it unless we haven’t been using it and he got rusty.    Sit is just “sit” or a finger pointed at him which is my hand gesture for that.     I would not click nor likely treat or praise either—sort of like one no longer praises each bit of ability to count to 10 or do correct addition for most kids who are in high school Algebra.   But once upon a time getting 1, 2, 3 in order was a big deal. 

Pen, so you use markers in adult/mature dogs?  Or, is it remedial - to remind them once in a while?  Yes - teach the fundamentals and gradually wean them - wean the frequency.  I think many have said that.  Is that what you're saying?

[Pen]

41 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Pen, so you use markers in adult/mature dogs?  Or, is it remedial - to remind them once in a while?  Yes - teach the fundamentals and gradually wean them - wean the frequency.  I think many have said that.  Is that what you're saying?

 

I don’t use it for something (skill, behavior) already mastered.   ETA: On any particular skill/behavior, yes, it would be gradually weaned.  But If I want to make a change, I might use it again.  (Example, an already housetrained dog, going on a trip—I might go back to marking behaviors to help show the dog where I want her to do her business.  ) 

I use it for new learning—especially anything offleash at a distance, or anything complicated as a behavior chain.

I use it for “remedial” or “new” — however one wants to call something that a dog maybe knew but forgot or maybe didn’t know in first place.  If I haven’t taught something well enough or didn’t think to review it often enough , it doesn’t much matter whether it’s “new” or “remedial”—it’s essentially new now.    And if dog didn’t learn or didn’t remember, that’s on me for not running the spaced review in time or whatever was the situation.  

And it doesn’t matter if it’s a new to me older dog who arrived at my home or got adopted at a shelter and needs some work, of if it’s a dog I’ve had 5 years who I realize needs something ... maybe for safety, maybe just for fun.

My sister’s family had a sort of couch potato type Labrador who got the basics he needed before their kids were born and thereafter was pretty much a playmate for little boys until he passed.  I don’t think he got training beyond basics, but in circumstances they were in, and given the dog’s low key personality, that was all he needed.

Our Labrador mix dogs have tended to be from working Field lines, or with mixtures that make them more driven, and in need of mental stimulation, jobs, ...     an English, show line Labrador may not have that sort of drive ...

A lot of them have adored positive reinforcement type training.  It has been a favorite fun activity, like a game to them.  

It’s sort of like dog thinks,  “oh, boy, I get to play that clicker game!!! Yesss!!!”  

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pen

[ktgrok]

 

52 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I get it. I really do even though it seems like I don't.  The terminology is NEW to me. I'd never heard it until Monday when I started this post.  Please know!!! I do NOT doubt your expertise but trying to logically think through this.  It seems like immediate would condition too b/c you're catching them in the act of peeing outside.  But, you're saying their brains may get confused?  Too much stimulation?  They need the predictability and a separation/lapse of time b/t marker and treat so next time these commands build on themselves and they will start to predict based on past associations and positive reinforcement.  

Remember, IF they already associate the clicker/marker with an incoming reward, than as long as you click/mark while they are peeing, they will have the same brain reaction as if you fed them the treat while they were peeing. And honestly, that's messy, lol. So the marker happens while they are peeing, and when they finish you give them a treat. 

What happens if you do both at the same time (marker and treat) is that they ignore the marker because with two things happening at once they are only going to pay attention to one thing. Later, when you need the marker to = treat because you can't get the treat there right away (say, working at a distance) you'll be sorry if the dog has not actually learned that associate. 

But SOMETIMES it is fine if both happen at the same time. You just need that full associate of "click predicts treat". 

That doesn't mean you always need to click when training. You don't. Honestly, i don't think I used clickers every time I took a dog out to potty. But I did make sure to have treats, lol. 

[Pen]

Something like this book (I’ve not read this exact one but have read others by this author) might be of interest to you:

Reaching the Animal Mind: Clicker Training and What It Teaches Us About All Animals https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NLL4YQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_.wkyDbDTPDZ07

 

[sheryl]

29 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Remember, IF they already associate the clicker/marker with an incoming reward, than as long as you click/mark while they are peeing, they will have the same brain reaction as if you fed them the treat while they were peeing. And honestly, that's messy, lol. So the marker happens while they are peeing, and when they finish you give them a treat. 

What happens if you do both at the same time (marker and treat) is that they ignore the marker because with two things happening at once they are only going to pay attention to one thing. Later, when you need the marker to = treat because you can't get the treat there right away (say, working at a distance) you'll be sorry if the dog has not actually learned that associate. 

But SOMETIMES it is fine if both happen at the same time. You just need that full associate of "click predicts treat". 

That doesn't mean you always need to click when training. You don't. Honestly, i don't think I used clickers every time I took a dog out to potty. But I did make sure to have treats, lol. 

Yep, I get what you're saying which is simultaneous marker/treat = ignoring marker and if that happens the dog hasn't actually learned that associate.  Their thinking give me the treat and ignore the marker.  

[sheryl]

Thanks, Pen, for the book link.

[ktgrok]

And again,, just to be clear, you don' have to do marker training to do reward based training. 

[Pawz4me]

I've only been skimming this thread, so apologies if these points have already been made.

Regarding a marker word -- I would carefully choose what word I was going to use, and I would make it a word that I do NOT use much in normal conversation. So that would rule out words like "good" or "nice" for me. You can of course use words like "good" or "nice" and some dogs will absolutely do just fine. But some particularly smart or particularly attentive dogs may get confused. I learned that many years ago when I used "okay" to release a dog from commands like sit or stay. So I'd be working around the house, talking to DH or on the phone, and say "okay" in conversation and the poor dog would look at me like "Wha????" He wasn't being asked to do anything at that moment, so he had no idea what he was being released from.  But he was a very smart, eager to please dog, so maybe an exception. But after that I never used a common word again, just in case.

You can choose any word -- a foreign one or a made up one, or any sound. Anything that you can remember and reproduce quickly and consistently. It doesn't have to be a word that makes sense in context. If you want to use a clicker but don't want to buy one you can use a clickable pen. I find them a lot easier to handle than a clicker, and the sound is less startling to some dogs who are bothered by noise. But I prefer my own word or sound, since I always have my mouth with me.  

The assumption in this thread has been that all dogs are food/treat motivated. And for a lab puppy that will almost certainly be true! But for others reading this -- some dogs aren't food motivated at all, so don't extrapolate the advice to use high value treats as something that will work for every single dog.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pawz4me

[sheryl]

15 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

 Once  housetrained  both in sense of not peeing/pooping inside, and in the sense of not chewing up furniture, electric cord, etc.   my answer is “ most of the time” — but by then the dog is “just a dog” yes, but one who has has been domesticated and understands the house rules, which is different than a wild unmannered dog creating havoc.    

 

Every so often havoc breaks out, inevitably initiated by a human dc, not by a dog, and I tell them to take the roughhousing and running about to the outdoors.  

Our house rules do allow dogs on beds. They co-sleep with a human once they can get through the night without a pee type accident.  

Up to current dog, dogs weren’t allowed on armchairs.  Current dog, who is smaller than former dogs, got special arm chair privileges.  I hope I don’t regret that since next dog should overlap this one and will probably expect same privileges even if it’s another 100plus pounder. 

In a sense, one could think of it as some training allows the dog to “just be a dog” much of the time safely.  This is especially true for things like long offleash romps.  A dog who will come when called, will sit and stay at side of road if a car is coming, can have a much more free life of happy running and sniffing and other dog things. 

Thanks for painting that picture for me.  We do allow our dogs on bed but we only have 1 at a time (would like more than 1 simultaneously but not in this house) and we do allow them on the bed as well although too big to sleep there.  I know that we'll have to "maintain" commands so this pup won't get rusty but we should be able to back off over time and once the obedience training is solidified.  Thanks! 

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

And again,, just to be clear, you don' have to do marker training to do reward based training. 

Marker training = clicker or chosen word
Reward = food initially but can evolve in to praise word only once solidified

Is that the formula?

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I know that we'll have to "maintain" commands so this pup won't get rusty but we should be able to back off over time and once the obedience training is solidified.  Thanks! 

As they get older you use life rewards to maintain commands. So asking for a sit before going out the door (great habit!), asking them to lay down before giving them dinner, whatever. 

Other commands to teach:

Off - this means put all four of  your big furry feet on the floor. As in, get "off" the couch because I want to sit there. Or if the dog jumps and puts its paws on a person or counter ge them "off". I hear a lot of people say "down" for this like "get down off the couch" but that's confusing for the dog. If they are taught that down means "lay down" and then you see them laying down on the couch, and say "down" they are already laying down, so why are you saying it? Use "off" instead. Or use a different word for laying down. Either way, just not the same word for both. I actually teach Off and UP at the same time. 

Up- Jump up into the car, onto the couch, onto the exam table, etc. I actually say "Hup-Up" but the word isn't important. 

It is easy to use a treat to lure the dog up onto the couch, reward, then back off the couch, reward, etc. 

"Place" - this means go lay on a designated place (that I'm pointing to usually) and stay there until told otherwise. So a dog bed, bathmat, whatever. Dog learns to associate that place with laying down nd being calm, and this makes life so much easier. Doggy can't be tearing around after the cat if he's in place. Or begging for food if he's in place. Etc. This is a later command, when puppy has more impulse control. 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Marker training = clicker or chosen word
Reward = food initially but can evolve in to praise word only once solidified

Is that the formula?

Right - you can reward the dog with or without also using a marker. 

People using marker training also wean off the food and go to just praise as well, to be clear. They only click if giving food, but they gradually stop clicking and just praise. Or again, use life rewards. 

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I've only been skimming this thread, so apologies if these points have already been made.

Regarding a marker word -- I would carefully choose what word I was going to use, and I would make it a word that I do NOT use much in normal conversation. So that would rule out words like "good" or "nice" for me. You can of course use words like "good" or "nice" and some dogs will absolutely do just fine. But some particularly smart or particularly attentive dogs may get confused. I learned that many years ago when I used "okay" to release a dog from commands like sit or stay. So I'd be working around the house, talking to DH or on the phone, and say "okay" in conversation and the poor dog would look at me like "Wha????" He wasn't being asked to do anything at that moment, so he had no idea what he was being released from.  But he was a very smart, eager to please dog, so maybe an exception. But after that I never used a common word again, just in case.

You can choose any word -- a foreign one or a made up one, or any sound. Anything that you can remember and reproduce quickly and consistently. It doesn't have to be a word that makes sense in context. If you want to use a clicker but don't want to buy one you can use a clickable pen. I find them a lot easier to handle than a clicker, and the sound is less startling to some dogs who are bothered by noise. But I prefer my own word or sound, since I always have my mouth with me.  

The assumption in this thread has been that all dogs are food/treat motivated. And for a lab puppy that will almost certainly be true! But for others reading this -- some dogs aren't food motivated at all, so don't extrapolate the advice to use high value treats as something that will work for every single dog.

YEEEEEESSSS!  This idea came to mind just yesterday when I got in to bed!   I played out the whole scenario in my head just as you explained above - using a marker word that is common in everyday speech and throwing the puppy off.   I am going to re-read this thread and research to find words. This will take time b/c I am going to pull from almost every reply and start a tip sheet and read that again.   Then practice.  Thanks PAWZ!