retained reflexes--how long for each exercise?

[caedmyn]

If your child had to do exercises for retained reflexes, how long did they need to do each exercise before moving on to a different one?  I'm not sure if there's a set period of time for them or if it's just based on how quickly the child can do that particular exercise easily/well.  We only go to the OT periodically because we pay out-of-pocket for it and it's $180 a visit. 

[Rosie_0801]

There's no set period of time. I never managed to integrate any with my kids, only reduce the severity for periods of time. Even at my age, my Moro reflex has whatever the word for the opposite of integrated is. Segregated doesn't seem right. It's 1am, so I'll go with un-integrated. 

[kbutton]

Sometimes the reflex work will morph before you drop it--one of my kids had a series of related exercises that led one into the other. When one exercise was steady, then he'd move on, but he might do the first exercise to the beat of a metronome or have to talk while doing it (adding distractions is a good way to see how well it's going). 

Rosie, maybe you are looking for "retained." Un-integrated works though, especially at 1 AM. 🙂 

One my kids will probably never have full integration due to a connective tissue disorder, but it does get better. Growth spurts bring them back out a little. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Rosie, maybe you are looking for "retained." Un-integrated works though, especially at 1 AM. 🙂 

 

My Moro reflex used to be integrated, and it partially isn't any more. I feel like un-integrated is the right not-really-a-word even now at 1pm, but I can't be sure. lol
Shouldn't "retained" be for when it never did integrate?

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

My Moro reflex used to be integrated, and it partially isn't any more. I feel like un-integrated is the right not-really-a-word even now at 1pm, but I can't be sure. lol
Shouldn't "retained" be for when it never did integrate?

Ah, I see. I am not sure I've heard a specific word for that situation, but I understand how you're distinguishing those two states now. Duh on me. 

So, I googled a bit, and it seems that if your reflexes are integrated, postural reflexes take over. So part of the therapy may be to get the postural stuff up and running to take over from the reflexes you're trying to integrate. 

My son's postural control is also a problem with his CTD. My older son had some mild signs of retained reflexes, and with just a little bit of therapy, his integrated and have basically stayed integrated. It was a really obvious thing. With my younger son, it's more of a peaks and valleys situation. 

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Disintegrated?  That doesn't seem right, it seems like it would work for something that went away, but not that came back.

Actually Rosie is right. The neonatal reflexes are present, get used, integrate (get put away), and then actually re-emerge even in typical people as they age. So some of the symptoms that we think of as aging are due to the re-emergence of the reflexes. 

My dd, who has a fair amount of praxis and other issues, finds her reflexes re-emerge when she's stressed. So she works on them, they integrate, and then they creep back. It's very frustrating for her. We've had other people say this as well.

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The neonatal reflexes are present, get used, integrate (get put away), and then actually re-emerge even in typical people as they age. So some of the symptoms that we think of as aging are due to the re-emergence of the reflexes. 

My dd, who has a fair amount of praxis and other issues, finds her reflexes re-emerge when she's stressed. So she works on them, they integrate, and then they creep back. It's very frustrating for her. We've had other people say this as well.

 

That's interesting. I'd not heard that before. 

My reappearing startle reflex is absolutely a stress thing. I expect it'll calm down of its own accord when dd is grown up and free to live as she pleases.

[PeterPan]

12 hours ago, caedmyn said:

If your child had to do exercises for retained reflexes, how long did they need to do each exercise before moving on to a different one?

I suggest you pick 3-4, however many you can work on practically and consistently, and work on them every day at least 3-4 times for 40 days. Usually what happens is the symptoms caused by the reflexes improve and the exercises become easy, less uncomfortable, etc. At that point the change is obvious. I would not stop before you've completed the 40 days (because that's what the PT told us to do and it worked for us, how's that for expert, lol), but going longer would only be if you continue to notice change or find the symptoms re-emerge if you don't continue.

So with my ds, most reflexes integrated in 40-60 days, and it was very noticeable and obvious it had happened. You just literally no longer needed to do the task. But some things, like brushing his feet, oh my, we continued that for months. If we stopped, the symptoms re-emerged. 

It's also ok to be a little inventive. There are some reflexes that are not on the common treatment lists that are quite pesky. I've posted a link in the past but can't find it right now. My ds was still chewing things, biting, and had issues with writing. There's a reflex in the hands that is part of rooting and nursing. So in the absence of instructions, I thought fine let's brush his hands! Well it was crazy effective. I used different textures (soft and firm bristles, stroking, kneading/massaging) and it was highly irritating to him at first. As the reflex calmed, it chilled. Also as part of that we did something with finger touching that geodob talks about. It's a legit thing, part of the reflex. Basically you're just going through the fingers, touching your thumb to each finger, forward and backward, each hand. It works on finger isolation. When a dc is young, they sort of have cub fingers and don't use each finger individually. So to write, we want each finger to be aware and work individually.

Again, simple things, and we did them at least 40 days but continuing until no change was noticed by not continuing.

Reflex work is great. Costs nothing, sometimes has amazing, profound results. And you could ditch the OT and get the Pyramid of Potential dvd. You can do Kelly Mahler's interoception online training for $99 right now. Getting yourself trained is worth more than the OT. I've been through a scad of them and they're usually worth just a little for just a little while. When you're paying that much and have that many kids, you're better off training yourself unless the OT is making a big difference.

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I meant that maybe the word would be disintegrated

morphologically it sounds right but per the science re-emerged or re-appeared would be accurate. Disintegrated (falling apart, chaotic, like it should not be happening, lol) is how it feels.

I haven't read any literature on it so I'm not sure what the accepted word is. Well that's not true, there's literature on the re-emergence or re-appearance of the reflexes as people age. But you're right, I don't recall what word they use.

My theory is when people have funky weird symptoms that "experts" don't really understand, they can call it anything they want, lol. 

And yeah, I'm too tired to know what you said, lol. I more wanted Rosie to hear the story. Sometimes you don't realize it's a thing to you realize other people have had it too. Or you know it's a thing, but it helps to know other people have had it happen. For my dd, it's been really frustrating. She can integrate a particular reflex, be able to wear say a bracelet, and then lose it, sigh. We're literally talking about basics like her ability to dress and be comfortable, sigh.

Edited August 8, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Here's that page I was remembering. It has a handy list and links for each. https://www.brmtusa.com/what-are-reflexes

[caedmyn]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I suggest you pick 3-4, however many you can work on practically and consistently, and work on them every day at least 3-4 times for 40 days. Usually what happens is the symptoms caused by the reflexes improve and the exercises become easy, less uncomfortable, etc. At that point the change is obvious. I would not stop before you've completed the 40 days (because that's what the PT told us to do and it worked for us, how's that for expert, lol), but going longer would only be if you continue to notice change or find the symptoms re-emerge if you don't continue.

 

Reflex work is great. Costs nothing, sometimes has amazing, profound results. And you could ditch the OT and get the Pyramid of Potential dvd. You can do Kelly Mahler's interoception online training for $99 right now. Getting yourself trained is worth more than the OT. I've been through a scad of them and they're usually worth just a little for just a little while. When you're paying that much and have that many kids, you're better off training yourself unless the OT is making a big difference.

I'm not really even sure what behaviors the reflex work is supposed to be addressing.  I can see that my kids have issues...but it's not so easy to figure out what's causing the issues.  I don't feel that it's been very helpful for DS10 after the initial few visits although he does really enjoy deep pressure work and brushing and stuff like that.  I think I'll see more of a difference with DS6 because his issues are more motor skills and emotional control.

Do you know...does that interoception training cover all the exercises?  How easy is her stuff to understand and implement?  I have major brain fog issues due to long-term sleep deprivation.

I feel like I don't know what I'm doing enough to not use the OT.  Also going to the OT provides a certain amount of accountability for me to have them do their exercises.   I suppose I could look at it as skipping a session to pay for other material.  Skipping one session would be about the same as buying an astronaut board for the spinning protocol. 

Then again, maybe sometimes there's an easier/simpler way to accomplish things than the way the OT recommends.  DS6 holds a fork weird and she wanted him to hold a small ball or cotton ball with his bottom 2 or 3 fingers while eating with fork so he'll learn to hold it properly.  He did it for about 2 minutes one meal and I could see that it was going to be a big hassle, and thought, "Why couldn't I just his tripod grasp pencil grip?"  So I stuck it on the fork, and after a few minutes of fiddling to figure out how to turn it so he'd hold the fork properly, it works perfectly.  Way easier than messing with a little ball every time!

[PeterPan]

Holding a penny or small object while you write (or use the fork) is a pretty common OT thing. Sounds like your solution worked.

The accountability is good, yes. I think the astronaut spinning gig is more out there. I guess research it and decide for yourself. 

Yes, KM's Interoception materials are easy to implement. If they are able to tell you how they feel, know what their triggers are, and able to make choices based on their body signals, then they don't need them and you'd go on to Zones of Regulation. If they're having trouble with their body signals or realizing what they're feeling (hypostatic or affective emotions), then you want to do Interoception work first.