After Fourth Form Latin/ Henle I?

[ALB]

My dd (and I) will be finishing Fourth Form/ Henle I this year.  Henle is fine, but I'm looking into other options.  What else would be a good program for an 8th grader who has done Henle I and has a good grasp of it so far, but would like something a bit more interesting to keep that motivation going?

I'm looking at Wheelock's and at Latin Alive.  Wheelock's seems to be like the most thorough and efficient path to AP Latin, but honestly Latin Alive looks much more appealing.  If she did Latin Alive, would she start with book 1 or book 2?  Can she still get to AP Latin by 11th grade?  Can we get by without the DVDs?  

[eagleynne]

If your daughter is finishing Fourth Form/Henle I then she has already covered pretty much the entire Latin grammar. Assuming she understands the material covered, starting another program (like Wheelock or Latin Alive) that's going to cover things she has already learned seems like it would be boring, and frankly a waste of your (and her) time. Why not get Henle II? Or another transitional program? Do you think she needs more practice with the basics, or needs to go over things again for some reason?

[forty-two]

Agree with pp that both Wheelock's and Latin Alive are going to be review to an extent.  My understanding is that finishing Fourth Form/Henle pretty much covers all the Latin grammar.  Since it sounds like your dd is pretty solid, she's probably ready to start the transition to reading and translating original Latin. 

That said, CAP rec's that students coming out of Henle 1 start with LA 2.  Looking at CAP's comparison between LA and Henle, it seems like all three LA books are roughly equivalent to Henle 1 & 2.  The LA Reader, which comes after LA 1-3 (but can also be used alongside LA 3), is a transition to original Latin authors.  I'd think to hit 11th grade AP Latin, you'd want to do LA 2, LA 3 and the Reader in 9th/10th.  Looking at CAP's online Latin courses, their AP Latin class requires their Latin 4 Readings course as a pre-req, and the Latin readings course uses the LA Reader.  To be ready for their AP class, they recommend a minimum of a half-year's experience with unaltered Latin, with a year's experience preferable. 

~*~

Whatever you do, I think that Lingua Latina would be a great supplement.  (It can also be done as a standalone.)  The main book is written entirely in Latin, and it is wonderful for learning to read Latin as Latin.  Coming out of Henle, it would also help broaden vocabulary, as LL introduces quite a few more words than Henle.  There's no English glosses; rather, new words are explained via pictures or Latin glosses in the margins.  I think the first LL book covers about the same grammar material as the FF series, but if there's some new things, they are introduced in the text.

If you are doing it as a supplement, you can just read and re-read it, 15-30 min a day, learning more each time through.  Start at the beginning, go till you get stuck, and then start over from the beginning and read till you get stuck again.  Each time through you get further.  By the time you are done, you have a solid Latin reading ability and are ready to move into original Latin works.

Edited January 27, 2019 by forty-two

[ALB]

No, I don't think she needs more time on the basics, although this second half of 4Form has been tough because of the lengthy readings and having to apply all that she has learned.  She has not enjoyed the Henle readings at all, although I'd say she really likes Latin in general.  I don't want to squelch her enthusiasm by doing Henle II next year as a stand alone program.  But, you're right, I don't want to waste time by moving backwards instead of forwards.

After looking at that comparison chart, it looks like she's already learned most of LA books 1 and 2.  I'd hate to jump into another program late in the game and loose momentum.

One concern is that I have read Henle is not as ideal for AP and NLE practice as Wheelock's, and supposedly Latin Alive is written from Wheelock's and just as good?  

I would love to add readings and more "interesting" parts to our Latin.  Thanks for the suggestion of Lingua Latina.  Do you think that would be better than Cambridge for that kind of a supplement?

[eagleynne]

If she has done well with the grammar she has already learned you might try something like the Legamus transitional readers from Bolchazy-Carducci. They also have some very nice AP prep and AP level texts and workbooks that would serve her well on the AP exam, which is mostly Caesar and Vergil. The Caesar Workbook and the Vergil Workbook are both designed to prep students for the AP Latin exam. Both are very nice, I know a couple of professors who use them to prep for translation classes at the university I went to. You could couple the Legamus reader and the Workbook from one author together and have a very nice translation class. If you wanted you could get a copy of Wheelock to have on hand for reference and review as needed, they're not very expensive.

[forty-two]

1 hour ago, ALB said:

I would love to add readings and more "interesting" parts to our Latin.  Thanks for the suggestion of Lingua Latina.  Do you think that would be better than Cambridge for that kind of a supplement?

Cambridge's readings are fun, but Lingua Latina's readings actually *teach* the language, not just practice what you've learned outside the readings like most readers.  Not to knock those readers - there's a lot of value in practicing what you've learned - but the way LL actually *teaches* new things *through* the readings is a huge step above what most readers are aiming at.  (Speaking of Latin readers, to get in more reading practice and build stamina, here's a link to a free compilation of Latin readers in the public domain: https://compassclassroom.com/shop/product/latin-readers/ .  As well, I bought cheap old used editions of Cambridge to use as readers and extra practice, and while they in no way replace LL, they're nonetheless definitely worth the $5 apiece I spent.)

1 hour ago, ALB said:

No, I don't think she needs more time on the basics, although this second half of 4Form has been tough because of the lengthy readings and having to apply all that she has learned.  She has not enjoyed the Henle readings at all, although I'd say she really likes Latin in general.  I don't want to squelch her enthusiasm by doing Henle II next year as a stand alone program.  But, you're right, I don't want to waste time by moving backwards instead of forwards.

After looking at that comparison chart, it looks like she's already learned most of LA books 1 and 2.  I'd hate to jump into another program late in the game and loose momentum.

So it sounds like she definitely needs to improve her stamina, which is not unusual.  Lingua Latina would help with reading stamina, and she could go ahead and start it now.  WRT translating, is it the length that's the primary problem, or the number of things she has to keep in mind, or both?  How long are the translations?

A potential issue with starting LA at book 3 is vocabulary - there might be a lot of new vocab.  If money's not too much of an issue, starting at book 2 and moving through it quickly could be an option (CAP says there's a lot of review in the LA books, so you don't have to do everything if your student doesn't need all the review) - there's a lot of benefit in reviewing in Latin learning.  And if she's already feeling like things are getting tough, she might appreciate a bit of review in switching, instead of getting hit with a double dose of new things: new Latin on top of new Latin sequence.  Of course, if she looks at the sample of LA 3 and finds it straightforward, then all the review in the LA books might make starting with LA 3 doable.  Maybe sit down with her and look over the samples of LA 2 and LA 3, and see what she thinks.  Compare length and complexity of the exercises and readings, see how much vocab is new to her, see how many grammar constructions are new vs old hat.

I don't think moving quickly through LA 2 is necessarily too much of a step back, especially since continuing on with Henle is kind of a no-go.  Better to repeat a bit as you build a strong foundation than to get in over your head.  Although, if she starts LL now and gets a fair way through it before 9th, that alone will fill in a lot of holes, and might make jumping into LA 3 an easier proposition.  I'd thought that Henle 1 taught all the grammar, but it appears that it's Henle 1 & 2 together that cover everything.  So moving into book 2 of a three-book cycle is going back from 50% of the way through to 33% of the way through - it's a bit of a step back, but not a huge one.

Edited January 27, 2019 by forty-two

[ALB]

This is very helpful, thanks!

It looks like starting with LA 2 after Henle I is the recommended route, and I do really like the idea of "filling in any holes" and just cementing what she has learned.  There was lots of grammar in the Form series, but now having to keep it all straight while reading a longer passage is a bit daunting.  I think we're going to do Latin Alive with readings from either Cambridge or Lingua Latina as a supplement and to keep up interest.  While I do understand and agree with the grammar-first methodology, I think having the context of reading continuous stories will add interest and booster her enthusiasm.

[8filltheheart]

If you want engaging, I would recommend the Galore Park books. My kids really enjoyed the LP series a lot. I would recommend the book 2 of SYRWTLatin https://www.bookdepository.com/So-You-Really-Want-Learn-Latin-Book-II-N-R-R-Oulton/9781902984018 followed by Latin Prep 3 http://www.horriblebooks.com/galoreparkbooklist.htm as a single yr's course. 

After LP 3, I would move to the the books listed by @eagleynne 

 

[2_girls_mommy]

Just for another track idea: We stuck with Henle 2 , and the MP plans for it after Fourth Form. I broke Fourth Form/Henle 1 up over two years for Latin 1 and 2. Then for Latin 3 we picked up the Henle 2 w/MP plans and worked slowly through it. What I like about it is you have the MP style of doing latin, similar to the way the Form series broke it up for us, and it constantly reviews grammar and has them reference back to the Fourth Form book. What I don't like about it, it doesn't even have them reading the Caesar at the beginning of the book, just doing the exercises with Caesar like readings. So that is why we did the year very slowly. We slowly read through Caesar alongside the exercises for much of the year.  So this year for Latin 4 I decided to stick with what is working. AP would have required Caesar plus the Aenied which isn't covered until Henle 4. Instead, I decided I wanted to continue Caesar and add in Cicero, so we are using Henle 3 for much of the year. I plan to add a little Aenied by the end of the year for some poetry, but after we take the Latin III/IV Prose NLE vs. the AP exam.  I still use lessons from the MP Henle 2 to review grammar, going over ones we have already done in our day to day lessons on top of translating Caesar and Cicero. 

[ALB]

2girlsmommy, thanks for sharing your sequence.  MP lesson plans are great, aren't they!  It sounds as if you are doing this on your own at home, is that right?  Are you planning to prepare for the AP exam on your own?  

I really like the Form series, and I personally have no problems with Henle.  However, my dd is adverse to continuing with Henle and I want to keep her enthusiasm for Latin alive.  In general she is not one to complain about curriculum choices and happily complies with whatever I pick out.  Henle Latin seems to be the exception, so that is why I'm looking for other options.

[2_girls_mommy]

4 hours ago, ALB said:

2girlsmommy, thanks for sharing your sequence.  MP lesson plans are great, aren't they!  It sounds as if you are doing this on your own at home, is that right?  Are you planning to prepare for the AP exam on your own?  

I really like the Form series, and I personally have no problems with Henle.  However, my dd is adverse to continuing with Henle and I want to keep her enthusiasm for Latin alive.  In general she is not one to complain about curriculum choices and happily complies with whatever I pick out.  Henle Latin seems to be the exception, so that is why I'm looking for other options.

We decided not to do AP, so we won't hit the Aenied and poetry in general very hard. After she takes the NLE III/IV prose exam in March we will do poetry until the end of the year.  My original plan was to then give her a break from Latin and take a 1st year modern language for senior year for some exposure and something different. I gave her credit for Latin I in 8th grade. She got a perfect score on the NLE level 1 that year and has just taken the appropriate level ever since, giving her 4 years credit so far. But we just made an appointment with the Classics department of the college she will be going to. That might make us change our plans. She needs to decide on a degree. If she goes with a Letters degree then she would do 1 ancient language, presumably Latin, and 1 modern language,presumably Spanish. We need to find out if they are ok with a DE spanish class. Then we might do DE Spanish next year. If she decides to do a classics degree, we may have them see which Latin they think she could take next year for a DE. OR... we may do no DE, just do Spanish I at home and she can figure out languages the next year.  So I have no real plans for senior year. But we have decided against AP. 🙂

[yvonne]

Would you consider an online course?  Lukeion is wonderful, as much for the study skills students develop as for the Latin. It's an effective and efficient path to the Latin AP exam, if that's a goal. I doubt that there are any more experienced or well-trained Latin instructors out there! 

They have a placement exam, which would help avoid either spending a year repeating what your dd has already mastered or jumping into something that is too much of a stretch to be successful.

Good luck!

 

[ALB]

No, online is not an option financially, nor is dd interested in that.  I do assume that as some point in the future we will need to go that route, but for now we want to keep it at home.

 

[2_girls_mommy]

So after reading this, I picked up Wheelock from the library, and I really like it. I'm going to throw it in our mix. It's easier to read just from the size of it than our Henle's, and the grammar is laid out nicely. We've always kept with fourth form for grammar review because i'ts lad out so much better than Henle, but this is nice for exercises and short readings and questions.

[ALB]

I got Wheelock's used online for a few dollars and I'm really impressed by it, too!  I also picked up Cambridge and that is a fun and interesting course.  Now to figure out to combine and supplement with all these great resources...!