My annual math freak out (AOPS)

[skimomma]

I should collect these threads and make a book.....

Dd is in 10th grade and taking AOPS Intermediate Algebra on her own (no class).  She has successfully completed Pre-A, Intro to A, and Intro to Geometry, all from the book without a class.  For context, dd is not super strong in math.  AoPS has been difficult from day one.  I question every year whether this is the right curriculum for her.  We have dabbled with other programs but dd always comes back to AoPS as she enjoys the discovery approach and I feel ultimately it will serve her the best in future math studies.  But it is and always has been painful.  Dd can almost never do the challenge problems on her own, for instance, but typically can do most review problems without help.  

We are in chapter one.  I tend to work through some of the problems in parallel with her so I am prepared to help.  I have noticed right away that after a year of geometry, some of her intro to algebra skills are rusty.  I have also noted that she deals with this by trying to solve around those skills....which often is impossible or at the very least takes a lot more time.  For example, she is struggling to deal with quadratic equations.  There is apparently a retention issue with some topics....specifically, topics that she did not use often in geometry.

I am sure others have had this issue.  If you have been there, I have two questions:

1.  Dd gets twitchy about "falling behind."  I feel she must review these topics.  We disagree on whether to devote her full math time to review or to try to work review and current math in tandem.  Thoughts?

2.  What worked best to review rusty topics?  My original plan was to have her work through those AoPS Intro to Alg. chapters again, as though they were new.  Khan is another idea.  Both will be time-consuming, which upsets dd (see #1).  Anyone have other ideas that might be a quicker path to successful review.

[Arcadia]

Firstly, she is not behind. Precalculus book in 11th grade and Calculus book in 12th grade would get her ready for AP Calculus BC exam in 12th grade if she wants to take that exam. 

Secondly, retention is hard to judge after summer break. My younger kid has to review whenever he takes a summer break. I make him flip his textbooks when he forgets sometime as he has a shelf of AoPS textbooks. Each kid has their own copy so that’s not a problem here. Redoing would be too time consuming and Khan doesn’t work for either of my kids.

Thirdly, we kept the challenge problems to free time (like weekends, summer) else too much time would be on Math and my kids are at the stage that they need a lot more sleep. So sleep has higher priority over more math (or any academic subject) time.

[...................]

Just some thoughts...

1.  AOPS did not work for us as a standalone program, for retention.  For some reason my son's entire year with Algebra 1 was forgotten, thought we never had that issue before or since.  All of the perseverance in problem-solving skills and out of the box thinking skills stuck though, so it had its purpose.  

It doesn't sound like your dd necessarily would have this issue with AOPS since she did two levels, but I just mention it so that you can hear others' experiences and compare it to your own.  

2.  The year my son did an AOPS online class was the worst math year of his life.  AOPS with the book was fine, as he did not feel the pressure to get every problem, and, when necessary, I could look at the solutions to the challenge problems and give him some hints.  WHen you take the class they give you a whole different set of challenge problems, to which you do not have a solution.  Therefore, your student can feel completely lost.  My son also found the green bar nervewracking.  Additionally, we found the interface and the teaching style of the online class less than helpful.

Therefore,

Unless your dd is loving the class, what I would do is drop the class while you're still in the refund period (if there is one) and do about 2-3 weeks of Algebra review from a standard Algebra textbook.  Then, I'd use the AOPS book on its own like you always used to do.

[daijobu]

On 9/6/2018 at 8:04 AM, skimomma said:

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I am sure others have had this issue.  If you have been there, I have two questions:

1.  Dd gets twitchy about "falling behind."  I feel she must review these topics.  We disagree on whether to devote her full math time to review or to try to work review and current math in tandem.  Thoughts?

2.  What worked best to review rusty topics?  My original plan was to have her work through those AoPS Intro to Alg. chapters again, as though they were new.  Khan is another idea.  Both will be time-consuming, which upsets dd (see #1).  Anyone have other ideas that might be a quicker path to successful review.

 

I haven't really been there, but if I may, I can offer some ideas:

1.  We school year round because I don't like feeling like I'm "falling behind."  I vote for working review and current math in tandem.  If she's forgotten the quadratic equation, do a quick review, with a derivation using completing the square, and then return to the problem.  Don't redo all the algebra chapters again; that's just too depressing.   

2.  My kids regularly took practice AMC's in addition to their work in AoPS.  For her level I would have her take AMC 10.  Taking the AMC every week will prevent her skills from getting rusty.  She'll have plenty of algebra, geometry, counting and yes, problems involving quadratics.  An AMC takes about an hour.  Just take one once a week.  It's worth the little bit of extra time to keep those skills fresh.   

I know a lot of boardies complain about AoPS geometry as being the most difficult book in the series, but my money is on Intermediate Algebra.  Just FYI, you'll be mired in polynomials for what seems like years!  (It's more like 4 chapters, but still.)   

[skimomma]

Thanks for the replies.

Luckily, she is not in the class.  That would never work for my dd as she often needs much more time to digest math concepts and would probably have a nervous breakdown trying to adhere to a class schedule.  I am very strong in math so do not really need to outsource, which is good because I do a lot more teaching than I think AoPS is designed to require.

I am very thorough by nature and probably fall on the side of overkill when it comes to situations like this.  If dd were in 3rd or 5th grade, I would for sure stop, go back, and review any concepts I thought dd was struggling with.  Now she is 15 and I am trying to guide her through making her own decisions on how to handle roadblocks, even if I would do it differently.  

I know she is not "behind."  I am perfectly happy to take two years if that is what it takes to do it well.  And I believe dd also knows she is not behind in the bigger picture.  But something about making progress for a one-year finish catches dd's attention.  If she is not roughly halfway through the book by January, she gets twitchy, no matter what I say.  She thinks taking a break for review will knock her off track.  She wants to do a tandem review.  That is not my default method so I wanted to see if others had done it and how it worked for them.  It sounds like a solid enough plan to try.  And probably good for dd anyway as she will have to manage review, when necessary, in tandem with any college classes she takes.

I will check out AMC.  Thanks for the suggestion!

[...................]

Why not switch to a non discovery math method?  There are so many great programs out there.

[Malory]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:33 AM, Calming Tea said:

Just some thoughts...

1.  AOPS did not work for us as a standalone program, for retention.  For some reason my son's entire year with Algebra 1 was forgotten, thought we never had that issue before or since.  All of the perseverance in problem-solving skills and out of the box thinking skills stuck though, so it had its purpose.  

May I ask what you used as a supplement?  We are finding ourselves in similar situation.  Thanks!

[skimomma]

33 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

Why not switch to a non discovery math method?  There are so many great programs out there.

 

We have tried other programs.  Dd has always returned to AoPS.  And as a university instructor, I see a great deal of value in the method if a kid likes it.  So many of my students seem stumped when a problem does not follow the "formula."  Dd is strongly considering a STEM path.  Knowing that and knowing that dd takes a bit longer to understand math concepts, I think the discovery method will serve her best in the end....even if it takes more time right now.

[...................]

4 hours ago, Malory said:

May I ask what you used as a supplement?  We are finding ourselves in similar situation.  Thanks!

 

He used Saxon, and did Pre-Algebra AOPS as a supplement.  Then he did ONLY AOPS and Math Club (AMC and MOEMS) and that year he definitely learned a lot about problem solving, and out of the box thinking, but retained absolutely nothing when he was given a placement test.  So, I put him back in Saxon Alg 2 and did every single problem, which thankfully thoroughly reviews all of Algebra 1.  

We never had retention issues with him before or since, and, at the time we did not take summers off from Math, so it wasn't some kind of summer fog or anything.  The AOPS discovery method just didn't stick long term for him.

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, skimomma said:

 

We have tried other programs.  Dd has always returned to AoPS.  And as a university instructor, I see a great deal of value in the method if a kid likes it.  So many of my students seem stumped when a problem does not follow the "formula."  Dd is strongly considering a STEM path.  Knowing that and knowing that dd takes a bit longer to understand math concepts, I think the discovery method will serve her best in the end....even if it takes more time right now.

I guess the question is whether or not the method is leading to long-term retention of the concepts. 

FWIW, in general, I don't agree that the discovery method serves all kids best in the end.  For some kids, it is the absolute best.  But for others, it mixes trees and forest and they can't really sift through the information in a long-term retention meaningful way.  Another FWIW, plenty of kids have an extremely solid grasp of math and have never seen an AoPS text.  My engineer ds definitely understood all his math and engineering courses, was an extremely strong student, and used Foersters and either Sullivan or Larson (can't remember which he used anymore.)  My dd is every bit as strong in math as that ds and disliked AoPS and wanted Foersters.  My theory-loving ds (who is still a theorist now and pursuing theoretical cosmology) ate up AoPS.  He loved it.  But that is how he thinks about everything.  The other 2 are more application types.

Just wanted to affirm for others reading this thread that AoPS is not the only approach that leads to solid understanding of concepts.  IOW, not using AoPS does not equal only knowing how to plug and chug formulas.

[...................]

4 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I guess the question is whether or not the method is leading to long-term retention of the concepts. 

FWIW, in general, I don't agree that the discovery method serves all kids best in the end.  For some kids, it is the absolute best.  But for others, it mixes trees and forest and they can't really sift through the information in a long-term retention meaningful way.  Another FWIW, plenty of kids have an extremely solid grasp of math and have never seen an AoPS text.  My engineer ds definitely understood all his math and engineering courses, was an extremely strong student, and used Foersters and either Sullivan or Larson (can't remember which he used anymore.)  My dd is every bit as strong in math as that ds and disliked AoPS and wanted Foersters.  My theory-loving ds (who is still a theorist now and pursuing theoretical cosmology) ate up AoPS.  He loved it.  But that is how he thinks about everything.  The other 2 are more application types.

Just wanted to affirm for others reading this thread that AoPS is not the only approach that leads to solid understanding of concepts.  IOW, not using AoPS does not equal only knowing how to plug and chug formulas.

 

I am super glad for the two years in Math club and supplementing/using AOPS, but I am super glad we returned to Saxon and had a super solid ALgebra 2/Geometry year before embarking on using the CC for Pre-Calc.

My dd who has never used Saxon, only Horizons will be embarking on her Saxon journey this year with Alg 2 and I hope it works for her too.

[Targhee]

First idea, use Alcumus to review Algebra and Geometry.

Second, Switch away from AOPS. We love it! But I can even see the difference in its value between my oldest and the next child. He’s still doing well with it, but he doesn’t retain as well as oldest. He did three years of BA and the PreA successfully and likes the discovery based method (in fact, that’s pretty much how he likes to learn anything), but he needs more review. We use Alcumus and its enough for him. But oldest didn’t even need Alcumus. So, don’t be tied to AOPS as the only way for your math student.