Math for struggling dd

[jkl]

I have posted about dd9 and math before.  She has OCD, sensory processing issues,fine motor delays, and ADHD inattentive type.  She is receiving therapy or medication for all of these issues.She has been tested for dyscaluclia and ASD but did not meet the criteria for either, though she has some symptoms of both (we may get her re-evaluated at some point in the near future because my gut is telling me we still don't have the whole picture).  Right now, I am trying to come with a plan for the summer/next year for math for her.  She does not know her facts, despite mastering them on Xtra math.  They simply didn't stick.  We tried R&S math and she could not keep the triplets straight.  We stopped and did some hands-on things (measuring, money, etc.) and worked through half of Math Lessons for a Living Education grade 2, which helped me to successfully teach her addition with regrouping (yay!!).  I don't really care for MLFLE, because I don't think it provides enough practice for her,. but she doesn't mind it  So, I'm looking for some advice about what to do next.  She will turn 10 near the beginning of the school year, so we are pretty far behind.   I'm considering just going on with the MLFLE grade 2 and maybe adding some Kumon books for more practice OR Trying Developmental math OR just dong Ronit Bird's stuff.  Does anyone have any advice?  I feel like we are falling more and more behind in math, and I'm unsure of what to do now.  Help! ?

[sweet2ndchance]

With all her issues, I wouldn't say she's behind. She is where she is, one of the great things about homeschooling especially for children who are not neurotypical learners is that you can go at their pace without the pressure of keeping up with arbitrary goals set by someone else for the average child. Just teach the child in front of you. Don't worry about being "behind". So many things in mathmatics are dependent upon a child being cognitively ready to learn it. Her brain may not be wired to learn at the typical pace and sequence that public schools use and that's ok because she's not in public school.

Celebrate that she finally understands addition with regrouping! Rote memorization and brute force practice didn't make the math facts stick so try something else. Look into some right-brained learning techniques that pair the facts with pictures or stories. Work on number sense, the ability to manipulate numbers and see the patterns in math. 

Sometimes it isn't endless practice that they need to make a concept stick, they just need time for the concept to float around in their heads until it cements into place. If she at least tolerated the MLFLE lessons, or which ever program she at least seemed to even slightly enjoy, I would stick with that one. A child that is frustrated with an ill fitting math program or that is drowning in practice problems won't have the time and energy to play with the concept in their head until it cements.

[HomeAgain]

Does she work a lot with manipulatives?  I'm not all that familiar with MLFLE, other than a passing glance through it and deciding it wasn't for us.

[jkl]

10 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

With all her issues, I wouldn't say she's behind. She is where she is, one of the great things about homeschooling especially for children who are not neurotypical learners is that you can go at their pace without the pressure of keeping up with arbitrary goals set by someone else for the average child. Just teach the child in front of you. Don't worry about being "behind". So many things in mathmatics are dependent upon a child being cognitively ready to learn it. Her brain may not be wired to learn at the typical pace and sequence that public schools use and that's ok because she's not in public school.

Celebrate that she finally understands addition with regrouping! Rote memorization and brute force practice didn't make the math facts stick so try something else. Look into some right-brained learning techniques that pair the facts with pictures or stories. Work on number sense, the ability to manipulate numbers and see the patterns in math. 

Sometimes it isn't endless practice that they need to make a concept stick, they just need time for the concept to float around in their heads until it cements into place. If she at least tolerated the MLFLE lessons, or which ever program she at least seemed to even slightly enjoy, I would stick with that one. A child that is frustrated with an ill fitting math program or that is drowning in practice problems won't have the time and energy to play with the concept in their head until it cements.

You are right.   I should not say she is behind.  She really has come a long way and she has been through a lot this year with all of the testing and therapy!.  I just want to figure out how I can best help her.  I hate to see her struggle with so much!  Right-Brained flash cards may work well for her.  I keep thinking if I could figure out WHY she is struggling, I could figure out what to do to about it...

[jkl]

3 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Does she work a lot with manipulatives?  I'm not all that familiar with MLFLE, other than a passing glance through it and deciding it wasn't for us.

She hates manipulatives.  She tolerated using beans and the place value village (that's how she learned to regroup), but in general she shuts down if I pull out the rods or counters or anything like that. 

[sweet2ndchance]

16 minutes ago, jkl said:

I keep thinking if I could figure out WHY she is struggling, I could figure out what to do to about it...

 

((Hugs))

Such is the curse of being a homeschool mom. ;-)

If she doesn't like manipulatives, would she tolerate drawing pictorial representations? Bar diagrams and such?

I still remember that 8x8=64 from I think it was Times Tales when my oldest son was memorizing his multiplication facts. There is a silly picture of two number 8s on roller skates and spilled soda on the floor with the caption of "skate times skate is sticky floor". I still use the finger trick for 9s though I can visualize the trick in my head rather than use my actual fingers lol.

It doesn't sound like math is her strong suit. While it is still important for her to learn math, I would focus on accuracy more than speed with her. Math fact memorization promotes speed, not necessarily understanding. If she needs to use a facts table or manipulatives or tricks or even a calculator, I would let her do what she needs to do so she can understand the mathmatical concepts presented without struggling with the basic facts. It may never be clear why she struggles to memorize them but that doesn't have to hold her back in math.

[shinyhappypeople]

20 hours ago, jkl said:

I have posted about dd9 and math before.  She has OCD, sensory processing issues,fine motor delays, and ADHD inattentive type.  She is receiving therapy or medication for all of these issues.She has been tested for dyscaluclia and ASD but did not meet the criteria for either, though she has some symptoms of both (we may get her re-evaluated at some point in the near future because my gut is telling me we still don't have the whole picture).  Right now, I am trying to come with a plan for the summer/next year for math for her.  She does not know her facts, despite mastering them on Xtra math.  They simply didn't stick.  We tried R&S math and she could not keep the triplets straight.  We stopped and did some hands-on things (measuring, money, etc.) and worked through half of Math Lessons for a Living Education grade 2, which helped me to successfully teach her addition with regrouping (yay!!).  I don't really care for MLFLE, because I don't think it provides enough practice for her,. but she doesn't mind it  So, I'm looking for some advice about what to do next.  She will turn 10 near the beginning of the school year, so we are pretty far behind.   I'm considering just going on with the MLFLE grade 2 and maybe adding some Kumon books for more practice OR Trying Developmental math OR just dong Ronit Bird's stuff.  Does anyone have any advice?  I feel like we are falling more and more behind in math, and I'm unsure of what to do now.  Help! ?

How does she do with understanding math concepts?  If she's understanding the concepts but her difficulty with math facts is what's holding her back, I'd allow her to use reference materials (times tables, etc.) and just keep moving on.

What about continuing with MLFLE (I know, I know... but if she likes it okay that's HUGE) and also adding a page of Kumon for math facts practice?

Ronit Bird is awesome, but uses a lot of manipulatives so it sounds like she wouldn't tolerate it well.  

Best wishes ❤️  

[jkl]

6 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

How does she do with understanding math concepts?  If she's understanding the concepts but her difficulty with math facts is what's holding her back, I'd allow her to use reference materials (times tables, etc.) and just keep moving on.

What about continuing with MLFLE (I know, I know... but if she likes it okay that's HUGE) and also adding a page of Kumon for math facts practice?

Ronit Bird is awesome, but uses a lot of manipulatives so it sounds like she wouldn't tolerate it well.  

Best wishes ❤️  

It's not just facts, she struggles with the concepts as well.  It will seem like she has grasped something, but then we will do it again the next week or even the next day and it will be like she has never seen it before.  This has happened over and over again the past few years--we get stuck and just can't go anywhere.  But, what has happened a few times is that we work on something and work on something and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and THIS TIME she gets it, like her brain is finally ready for it. This happened with counting coins and telling time and adding with "carrying the one". I  think this is just going to be the way she processes math, at least for awhile.  She is on her own time table, and that is fine.  It is just hard for me to teach this way because I like a plan. ? 

The MLFLE plus Kumon was what I was thinking originally.  Thanks!

[shinyhappypeople]

1 hour ago, jkl said:

It's not just facts, she struggles with the concepts as well.  It will seem like she has grasped something, but then we will do it again the next week or even the next day and it will be like she has never seen it before.  This has happened over and over again the past few years--we get stuck and just can't go anywhere.  But, what has happened a few times is that we work on something and work on something and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and THIS TIME she gets it, like her brain is finally ready for it. This happened with counting coins and telling time and adding with "carrying the one". I  think this is just going to be the way she processes math, at least for awhile.  She is on her own time table, and that is fine.  It is just hard for me to teach this way because I like a plan. ? 

The MLFLE plus Kumon was what I was thinking originally.  Thanks!

I think it's awesome that you're honoring your daughter's natural time table.  Slow and steady really does work.   

It's kind of dysfunctional the way our culture dictates that all children of a certain age should know x,y,z.  When I was a new homeschooler an older, much wiser homeschooler once told me that we don't expect every 10 year old to have the same shoe size or athletic ability or interests, so why do we expect them all to learn the same things at the same pace?

Normal is a statistical construct.  It's not actually real. Your daughter can learn and is learning.  She's going to be fine. ?

[jkl]

8 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I think it's awesome that you're honoring your daughter's natural time table.  Slow and steady really does work.   

It's kind of dysfunctional the way our culture dictates that all children of a certain age should know x,y,z.  When I was a new homeschooler an older, much wiser homeschooler once told me that we don't expect every 10 year old to have the same shoe size or athletic ability or interests, so why do we expect them all to learn the same things at the same pace?

Normal is a statistical construct.  It's not actually real. Your daughter can learn and is learning.  She's going to be fine. ?

Thanks!  I'm trying to get ok with honoring her time table without getting anxious.  I'm a work in progress--don't compliment me yet. ?

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, jkl said:

what has happened a few times is that we work on something and work on something and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and she struggles and then we do something else and try again and THIS TIME she gets it, like her brain is finally ready for it.

They usually say 6X for generalization. So do something 6 ways, and it finally generalizes in the brain.

You might also like to read about the mini-columns in the brain and how the spacing of them in autism affects learning. Dyslexic Advantage talks about this, and you might find some juiciness in there even though it is about dyslexia, not autism. Worth reading if you can get it from the library.

Ok, on the manipulative thing, I wouldn't assume the issue is the manipulatives. My dd didn't want to use manips, and the issue was her ADHD and her visual processing problems. After VT (vision therapy) that settled down. Has she been screened for retained reflexes and developmental vision problems? If she has either, those could influence what you're dealing with. 

In general, as an educational statement, the theory is that a good manipulative is confusing at first. So sometimes it's just that they aren't intererested or haven't trying using it in an intriguing way. But if someone has visual processing issues and super poor visual memory (like my dd did, unbeknownst to me), then trying to use manips that involve visual patterns would be very frustrating!! It was also why her spelling was so glitchy.

[Syllieann]

Whether a child “likes” manipulatives is not necessarily indicative of whether the child would benefit from them.  They slow things down if the objective is to write correct answers on all the blank lines in the workbook.  Sometimes the objective must be explicitly changed for the child to accept them.  Illustrating understanding by using physical demonstration becomes the objective.  You should try some of the Ronit Bird or c-rod materials for building number sense.  This could be at a separate time from the regular math lessons.  She could use a reference chart for math facts in her daily work.

[Targhee]

I will say all my adhd kids were later at mastering math facts, and drills/lots of simple problems were NOT effective (they were counter effective). They needed to be used in the context of more challenging math in order for them to be internalized.  And I let them each use the multiplication chart until they no longer wanted it.

What was very successful for my kids was heavily conceptual math, with manipulatives building concrete foundations. We have used RS, Singapore, Miquon, and lots of education Unboxed activities.