Jess4879 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I am looking at using The Art of Argument next year with my older two - grades 9 & 7. My younger (grade 4) is likely to listen in. Are there any topics I need to watch for that might not be suitable for my youngest? Also, I'm looking at samples and thinking I can just get away with a TG and having the kids use a plain notebook to write their responses in. Is this possible? We're planning to do this together, so I'll be the one reading and then we'll discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess4879 Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plagefille Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 We just did this program in the fall. You could probably just get the teacher's manual. The problem is that the answers are written in, so you would need to cover them up or ask the questions aloud. BTW, I am planning on just buying the teacher's manual from them for the next two books. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I only bought the TG. That is working fine for us, but I have the kids answer the questions orally. Since you plan on reading it to/with them, I think you'll be fine without the student book. We haven't finished AoA - we are about 3/4 of the way through. I don't recall reading anything that would be inappropriate for a 4th grader. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I'm about 3/4 of the way through too and can't think of anything objectionable either. Beware, it's really just a spine. You have to add to it if you want more than a few examples. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAM Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I have the TG and the student book but I don't have him write anything, we just discuss. I like having a book for him to follow along in while I read because it keeps him focused, but it isn't necessary, you could definitely do without it. I also have a 4th grader who is usually around while we do AoA and I haven't come across anything I wouldn't have wanted to read out loud with her there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I'm about 3/4 of the way through too and can't think of anything objectionable either. Beware, it's really just a spine. You have to add to it if you want more than a few examples. Not the OP, but I am considering this for my upcoming 7th graders. What kind of things did you use to add examples, to enhance the study? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Not the OP, but I am considering this for my upcoming 7th graders. What kind of things did you use to add examples, to enhance the study? +1 same question We have the videos but I wasn't planning on supplementing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Not the OP, but I am considering this for my upcoming 7th graders. What kind of things did you use to add examples, to enhance the study? I just brainstormed on the fly. That's the hard thing, we had a TIVO the year it came out and similar DVR then streaming technology, so we haven't watched commercials in decades. We don't subscribe to magazines. So it's so much of a chore to find advertising for us that we usually skip t. We read reviews of products on online, so it's actually an outdated format when it comes to advertising. We have the DVD which is excruciating to watch. The awful modern pedagogy where you have students who haven't mastered the subject yet discussing and poorly articulating what they think are applicable examples but often aren't, then the windbag ADD male teacher chattering on dryly explaining why they're not quite but not quite telling you what it is, then the long suffering high quality female teacher trying to reign everyone back in and explaining it better in what little time they have left, is irritating. I know there are people who think they don't want scripted discussions or lectures, but seriously, it's not a good use of time and money. There should be many more examples precisely explained before anyone even considers discussion and if I'm paying for the discussion, it should all be about what each concept is in detail. Homeschoolers don't need an organic classroom discussion by peers struggling with the content. I expected more of a Classical school. It's better than nothing, which isn't high praise. I'm just irritated that it was marketed as a curriculum when it's more of a spine. If I need to supplement it, it should say so up front in the amazon description and it should be very inexpensive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I haven't felt the need to supplement. I have added examples when I think of them as we discuss, but I haven't felt like the book is lacking. If anybody wants an abundance of real life examples, look to politics. :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) It's better than nothing, which isn't high praise. I'm just irritated that it was marketed as a curriculum when it's more of a spine. If I need to supplement it, it should say so up front in the amazon description and it should be very inexpensive. Yikes. Not looking forward to this! Edited March 8, 2018 by cintinative 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Just wondering, are there any other logic programs you prefer? Not at that age. I like the Memorial Press Formal Logic series Traditional Logic 1, Traditional Logic 2, Material Logic, Rhetoric in high school alongside Euclid's Elements for Geometry. They dovetail nicely and balance out with one being math and the other being argumentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachyDoodle Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I just brainstormed on the fly. That's the hard thing, we had a TIVO the year it came out and similar DVR then streaming technology, so we haven't watched commercials in decades. We don't subscribe to magazines. So it's so much of a chore to find advertising for us that we usually skip t. We read reviews of products on online, so it's actually an outdated format when it comes to advertising. We have the DVD which is excruciating to watch. The awful modern pedagogy where you have students who haven't mastered the subject yet discussing and poorly articulating what they think are applicable examples but often aren't, then the windbag ADD male teacher chattering on dryly explaining why they're not quite but not quite telling you what it is, then the long suffering high quality female teacher trying to reign everyone back in and explaining it better in what little time they have left, is irritating. I know there are people who think they don't want scripted discussions or lectures, but seriously, it's not a good use of time and money. There should be many more examples precisely explained before anyone even considers discussion and if I'm paying for the discussion, it should all be about what each concept is in detail. Homeschoolers don't need an organic classroom discussion by peers struggling with the content. I expected more of a Classical school. It's better than nothing, which isn't high praise. I'm just irritated that it was marketed as a curriculum when it's more of a spine. If I need to supplement it, it should say so up front in the amazon description and it should be very inexpensive. Just have to say, I SO agree with this. DD doesn't mind the videos but I have quit even staying in the room when she has them on, they irritate me so badly. The discussion is just... painful. DD keeps a running count of how many times the one teacher says, "Um"... I'm shocked that supposedly educated adults aren't any more articulate -- especially when they have the benefit of editing. As to the OP: yeah, the TG will do you. We just have the student book and I haven't found it hard to answer the questions/evaluate dd's answers, but might as well buy the TG and have the work done for you (wish I'd thought of that, actually). Don't bother with the DVDs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Just have to say, I SO agree with this. DD doesn't mind the videos but I have quit even staying in the room when she has them on, they irritate me so badly. The discussion is just... painful. DD keeps a running count of how many times the one teacher says, "Um"... I'm shocked that supposedly educated adults aren't any more articulate -- especially when they have the benefit of editing. As to the OP: yeah, the TG will do you. We just have the student book and I haven't found it hard to answer the questions/evaluate dd's answers, but might as well buy the TG and have the work done for you (wish I'd thought of that, actually). Don't bother with the DVDs. I know it's a stereo-type, but the female teacher is sooo much more articulate and clear than the other two male teachers (one is around for most of them and the other is there for just a few.) Nobody want the argumentation/speech/debate teachers to be poor examples of public speaking. And the boys! Good heavens! I don't know if it's stage fright or something else, but they are so bad at it. They really needed to film the teacher going over 2-3 examples of each concept in each category: advertising, politics, and social conversation, then have decent child actors who aren't flustered by cameras giving examples that have been prescreened and scripted for clarity before contrasting those examples with common misconceptions. I can only imagine how parents of the private school students of those male teachers would react to seeing how low quality the instruction is. How much are they paying in tuition?Double the female teacher's salary and give her bigger classes because she's so much better at it but gets so little time. Also, have her train the student teachers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Well, we thought Memoria Press's Traditional Logic 1 was insanely boring, so CAP's Art of Argument was a breath of fresh air here. BUT, I absolutely agree that the DVDs would be terrible. I only watched a few minutes of the example that was on their webpage - I couldn't get through the whole thing. Yuck! I teach AofA in a small group to whichever of my kid's friends (3-5 total) are around the 7th-9th grade range, which is when I usually teach it. I've done it twice & will do it again next school year, probably. I have the kids bring in examples and I bring examples. We've watched commercials on Youtube, discussed political debates, radio ads, and the kids bring in mail advertisements their parents have received. I don't supplement the book, but I do play games with the kids using the material in the books. I remember there being mentions of war and politics of some type. It seems to be a good book to use in a small group - with dialogs read from the book, discussion questions, games, and presentations. We cover it in one semester, but you can certainly stretch it out longer. I like everyone to have their own book when we're reading aloud & looking at the examples in the book, but I supposed you could get by with a TM. Personally, I'd have at least one student book and the TM. Your kids could pass around the student book as there are quite a few pictures - that are funny - that are examples of the different types of fallacies. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I was thinking of doing this next year with the DVDs. I think you all have just sealed it for me to wait until 8th when we might be able to do it at co-op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachyDoodle Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I know it's a stereo-type, but the female teacher is sooo much more articulate and clear than the other two male teachers (one is around for most of them and the other is there for just a few.) Nobody want the argumentation/speech/debate teachers to be poor examples of public speaking. And the boys! Good heavens! I don't know if it's stage fright or something else, but they are so bad at it. They really needed to film the teacher going over 2-3 examples of each concept in each category: advertising, politics, and social conversation, then have decent child actors who aren't flustered by cameras giving examples that have been prescreened and scripted for clarity before contrasting those examples with common misconceptions. I can only imagine how parents of the private school students of those male teachers would react to seeing how low quality the instruction is. How much are they paying in tuition?Double the female teacher's salary and give her bigger classes because she's so much better at it but gets so little time. Also, have her train the student teachers. I hate to rag on a bunch of 13-year-olds, but yeah. They're just terrible. If this is the kind of stuff dd is missing out on in school, I feel pretty good about our decision to homeschool. I agree that the female teacher is much better. I'm pretty sure the "um" dude is supposed to be a college professor. He makes me want to climb the wall. We have used CAP's Latin for Children for years, and those DVDs are much better. Most lessons are just Dr. Perrin teaching the material with a whiteboard. I was surprised that AofA was SO BAD. We will definitely look for something else if we continue with logic. I think we will take a break next year. Our last two attempts have been pretty big flops! OTOH, dd thinks it's hilarious that I'm so put out by the videos, so that's provided some entertainment for her. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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