trulycrabby Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Her name is Raven, she is a three year-old Great Pyrenees, and we adopted her about six months ago. She came to us with several health issues such as ehrlichiosis and heartworms. She also is not spayed, but the vet told us we needed to treat the heartworms before we could do so. Anyhow, she is currently in estrus, and aside from the logistics of an 85-pound dog on her period, it has not been horrible. We have kept her inside, and she has mostly slept the whole time. My beloved MIL has lived with us for almost 20 years. She has an apartment downstairs, but spends a lot of time upstairs with the family. Raven loves her, but when MIL comes upstairs when I am not home, Raven will bark at her but then will come over to be petted. Last night, I was in the bedroom, and MIL came into the kitchen to get some food I had cooked. Raven barked at her, and then reared up on her hind legs and challenged MIL: One leg was on the countertop and the other was on MIL. She did not bite, but put her teeth on MIL's arm. I know this breed very well, and I know Raven was acting very appropriately as a livestock guardian dog. The thing is though, why isn't MIL considered to be part of her "flock?" She lives with us and is upstairs every day. Is Raven showing aggression because she is in estrus, and if so, will spaying her reduce it? The vet wants to wait another few months to spay, but if she is aggressive towards a sweet little 82 year-old lady, then I may have to push to get it done much sooner. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. I really love this dog, really love my MIL, and want to work this out so that we can all live together happily. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 The accused... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Personally, I would talk to your vet immediately. Make an appointment, so you have sufficient time and attention to consider options. Heartworm disease compromises the dog for sure, and I can see a good argument for delaying surgery due to that. However, IMHO, aggression is a fatal disease in dogs, especially in large dogs in a home with a fragile family member. So, to me, I'd accept an elevated surgical risk if that would help with the aggression. Your vet needs to know about this new problem so s/he can help decide what risk is greater . . . There are ways to minimize surgical risks in a compromised pet. I mean, if she were hit by a car tomorrow and needed a surgical repair, clearly, you'd do it then . . . This sort of behavior could rapidly become life-threatening to either a human or your dog, so if spaying now can help reduce that risk, then it may well be worth an elevated surgical risk. If at all possible, I'd involve a certified animal behaviorist ASAP. Hopefully, your vet can refer you to one, or, you can find one yourself. Either a veterinarian behaviorist or a certified animal behaviorist. The ones I've worked with (through our hospital, on behavior cases) were simply incredible in rapidly figuring out the causes of problem behaviors and finding solutions. Not all problems can be fixed, but in your case, given you've had her 6 months already with no disasters, I'm guessing this is a fixable problem. http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-directory.php http://www.dacvb.org/about/member-directory/ If it were me, I'd get in with the best behaviorist I could find ASAP, as in days, not weeks. Because, if that behavior escalates to a bite or similar, then 1) your MIL might be maimed or dead or traumatized or 2) the dog would be euthanized. I love, love, love dogs. I adore dogs. Our business (dh is a vet, we own a hospital) is caring for family pets. That said . . . I have zero tolerance for aggression in dogs. I won't risk a human life/limb for a dog. Find an expert, figure out what's going on in your dog's head to fix it or realize you can't fix it . . . Don't wait. A big dog with aggression issues (no matter the cause) is an emergency, IMHO and IME. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thank you very much! Your response is very helpful! I received new information tonight that my MIL had attended a "dog birthday party" right before coming upstairs and she had spent a lot of time petting the birthday dog. So, she came upstairs smelling like this strange dog. Oh, the betrayal! ;) That said, the strange smell is not a valid excuse for the aggression, and we need to push for an earlier spay date. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Yes, being in heat can make dogs aggressive. They use the term bitch for a reason! Imagine yourself with PMS induced rage..it's not fun. Also, erlichiosis is pretty nasty, and can make a dog grumpy and out of sorts. As can any steroids if the dog was on them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) Our standard poodle was the very definition of a b$itch when she was in estrus. We waited and had her spayed at nineteen months, and I'm really glad we don't have to go through that again. She did not tolerate other dogs scents, and half the time didn't tolerate our other dogs in her space. I was cautious with my youngest so that he stayed away from her. She has been evaluated since and isn't aggressive, goes to doggy daycare, is in 4H, is getting her CGC, etc., but while she was in heat she was a totally different dog that I could not totally trust. I hesitate to read to much into it with the additional information given about the other dog scents, but I would consult your local trainer/behaviorist. I would be careful not to push the spay to early after her heat, a lot of newer literature suggests a period of time afterwards for hormones to adjust. Our female was in heat in early February, and was spayed in late May. Edited August 5, 2017 by melmichigan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Spay/neuter—despite the popular misconceptions—usually exacerbates behavioral problems in dogs, including aggression. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201702/are-there-behavior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Spay/neuter—despite the popular misconceptions—usually exacerbates behavioral problems in dogs, including aggression. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201702/are-there-behavior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered Bill not DURING estrus. Estrus in not comfortable, and makes them well, bitchy. IF this dog is normally fine but gets aggressive during her heat cycle, it is probably the heat cycle. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thanks, that's very reassuring to know that estrus is making her grumpy. She has never shown any aggression before, but until her cycle is over, I will make sure to be in the room whenever MIL is upstairs. That said, Raven had her head in MIL's lap last night while we were watching Hidden Figures. :wub: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) Personally, I would talk to your vet immediately. Make an appointment, so you have sufficient time and attention to consider options. Heartworm disease compromises the dog for sure, and I can see a good argument for delaying surgery due to that. However, IMHO, aggression is a fatal disease in dogs, especially in large dogs in a home with a fragile family member. So, to me, I'd accept an elevated surgical risk if that would help with the aggression. Your vet needs to know about this new problem so s/he can help decide what risk is greater . . . There are ways to minimize surgical risks in a compromised pet. I mean, if she were hit by a car tomorrow and needed a surgical repair, clearly, you'd do it then . . . This sort of behavior could rapidly become life-threatening to either a human or your dog, so if spaying now can help reduce that risk, then it may well be worth an elevated surgical risk. If at all possible, I'd involve a certified animal behaviorist ASAP. Hopefully, your vet can refer you to one, or, you can find one yourself. Either a veterinarian behaviorist or a certified animal behaviorist. The ones I've worked with (through our hospital, on behavior cases) were simply incredible in rapidly figuring out the causes of problem behaviors and finding solutions. Not all problems can be fixed, but in your case, given you've had her 6 months already with no disasters, I'm guessing this is a fixable problem. http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-directory.php http://www.dacvb.org/about/member-directory/ If it were me, I'd get in with the best behaviorist I could find ASAP, as in days, not weeks. Because, if that behavior escalates to a bite or similar, then 1) your MIL might be maimed or dead or traumatized or 2) the dog would be euthanized. I love, love, love dogs. I adore dogs. Our business (dh is a vet, we own a hospital) is caring for family pets. That said . . . I have zero tolerance for aggression in dogs. I won't risk a human life/limb for a dog. Find an expert, figure out what's going on in your dog's head to fix it or realize you can't fix it . . . Don't wait. A big dog with aggression issues (no matter the cause) is an emergency, IMHO and IME. Thanks for this great post. I agree with getting behavior help immediately before it becomes habit. It doesn't take long. My parents had to put down a loved dog due to aggression. It was heartbreaking. PS she's beautiful! *sigh* I love Great Pyrs! :001_wub: Edited August 5, 2017 by goldberry 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 IF this dog is normally fine but gets aggressive during her heat cycle, it is probably the heat cycle. :iagree: Many reputable breeders will tell you not to trust a female in heat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 not DURING estrus. Estrus in not comfortable, and makes them well, bitchy. IF this dog is normally fine but gets aggressive during her heat cycle, it is probably the heat cycle. But then one lives with a dog the rest of the year with worsened behavioral issues. Figuratively speaking, is the cure worse than the disease? A full-time "bitchy" dog? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 But then one lives with a dog the rest of the year with worsened behavioral issues. Figuratively speaking, is the cure worse than the disease? A full-time "bitchy" dog? Bill Having had spayed and intact females, I don't find the spayed female issues to be anywhere near the female in heat issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 why aren't you spaying her? These are wonderful dogs. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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