What programs for this kid?

[Farrar]

I generally let the kids direct what they're doing these days in terms of topics and interests. But I'm struggling to really get better work out of BalletBoy. This isn't a complaint exactly - he is a fine kid who is thoughtful and directed and cheerful about work. He consumes a good amount - and he's discovered The Great Courses, which he likes a lot. And he'll read a decent amount. And he loves doing Duolingo and likes Breaking the Barrier Spanish. And he's doing well with Dolciani Algebra, which he just started. But... he also doesn't really push himself in terms of what he produces. He loves creative writing and he does push himself with that some, but he struggles to really finish stories (which is okay... that's no big). But in terms of, say, papers or science projects, or answering questions or things like that... he's very mediocre. It's not laziness exactly. He just doesn't ever push himself to do a really nice job. And it's so obviously in contrast with his twin, who always pushes himself to do beautiful work (which is a problem because anxiety and perfectionism... and obviously if I could put them together, I'd have a single, perfect kid, but the mad scientist I consulted said no, not possible, so here we are then...).

 

For next year (8th grade), I want to try having him do more programs that are a big more box checker kinds of things but with a good amount of critical thinking. I'd especially like him to work on the sort of "short answer" questions that require a short paragraph with support. And to work on creative projects and things as well - he enjoys them, but then he doesn't do a great job. He likes being independent and working through his own stuff... I'm thinking that having me assign stuff - though he's not resistant to it - isn't working as well and he might thrive with having someone else ask the questions.

 

So... one thing I have that I might suggest is Critical Thinking Co's You Decide, which is about the constitution and applying understanding after reading about cases about the Bill of Rights. So it's a workbook, but with meaty questions.

 

Other suggestions like that? Science? Geography? History? Literature? I don't want to commit him to a big, full program, so unit study type stuff is good. Or things meant to be part of a unit study and I can add more books for him to read.

 

 

[SilverMoon]

Have you looked at Oak Meadow? The high school guides schedule a typical ps textbook (found dirt cheap used) and have questions and a variety of exercises to choose from for output. These were a great fit for a box-checking, get-it-done course. The varied assignments let creative kids have an outlet and here's-the-facts kids can grab the basic essay option. The middle school version appears similar without the separate textbook, but the world history and geography high school books are totally do-able for an average 8th grader.

[deerforest]

I was going to suggest Oak Meadow too until you mentioned not wanting to commit to a full program. But, maybe one of the half-year high school level ones like media literacy? We're trying the high school world geography next year, and English 8. Farrar, whenever you post, I always see bits of my daughter in both of your boys! 

 

My DD can deliver relaxed mediocre output, or she can deliver top-quality perfectionist output with anxiety. I'm still trying to find the middle ground. Her discussions and deep understanding continue to be so asynchronous with her ability to consistently deliver quality output.

[Miss Tick]

Hah! I was going to suggest NOT Critical Thinking Co. We use the US history one as a light weight review and for my kids the busy work is tolerable, but it is sooo antithetical to my vision of how you all work. But clearly you already know the ins and outs if you are using the Constitution book.

 

What about science using a book from Conceptual Academy. There is a short physical science course on their website where you use the textbook, watch associated videos and then do worksheets? quizzes? That are auto-produced and auto-graded on the computer.

[Farrar]

I put the media literacy from OM on my think about list.

 

I realized another good example of this sort of thing is Figuratively Speaking, which he's doing now - workbook, with some good short answer and thoughtful questions and some creative assignments.

 

The CTC stuff is mostly not to my taste... But I happen to have this Constitution book and I like the layout.

 

I think one of the Groovy Kids or another online class will be good for him. We were going to do one this year but we ended up not because of schedules and reasons. We always take a vacation in September and that makes timing awkward.

 

I was looking at Prufrock stuff... I'm wondering if their decades series might be a good potential one too...

http://www.prufrock.com/Exploring-America-in-the-1980s-Living-in-the-Material-World-P2088.aspx

 

I'm finding almost no science options, which is annoying. I suppose he could do TOPS independently, which could be good for him. And the Ellen McHenry stuff could be - Mushroom did Protozoa this year... but I have such mixed feelings about her materials. They're good, but they're weird. I have too many thoughts on them for this thread, probably.

 

Literature? I've liked the Glencoe Guides... but I wouldn't mind having him try something else... And I'm not sure what he'll "bite" on in terms of all this. It's all just brainstorming.

[Farrar]

Hah! I was going to suggest NOT Critical Thinking Co. We use the US history one as a light weight review and for my kids the busy work is tolerable, but it is sooo antithetical to my vision of how you all work. But clearly you already know the ins and outs if you are using the Constitution book.

 

What about science using a book from Conceptual Academy. There is a short physical science course on their website where you use the textbook, watch associated videos and then do worksheets? quizzes? That are auto-produced and auto-graded on the computer.

 

The Conceptual Academy stuff looks interesting... I'm confused though. You buy the book? And then follow along on the online site? The books seem pricey, though not insane... Have you done any of them? Did they go well?

[deerforest]

I bought all the Prufrock decades books for next year! I really like the look of them. You have to track down most of the source material to analyze but it's pretty easy to find.

 

We used Twisted Arms for a persuasive writing supplement. It had a similar level as Figuratively Speaking.

[Farrar]

I bought all the Prufrock decades books for next year! I really like the look of them. You have to track down most of the source material to analyze but it's pretty easy to find.

 

We used Twisted Arms for a persuasive writing supplement. It had a similar level as Figuratively Speaking.

 

Ooh, Twisted Arms looks promising for this kid. That's a good suggestion I haven't seen.

[deerforest]

I've been tracking down the resources for Prufrock decade books, and I wish I got the PDFs. It's taking me so long trying to type the URLs and most of them are already outdated so I have to Google anyway. I've been at it for hours, and I still haven't finished the 1950s--just an FYI!! They look great, but tons of prep work!

[Miss Tick]

The Conceptual Academy stuff looks interesting... I'm confused though. You buy the book? And then follow along on the online site? The books seem pricey, though not insane... Have you done any of them? Did they go well?

As I understand it, you are correct, buy the book, read?, watch video, do online work that is auto-graded and quizzes also online. The head guy will email you back if you use the "contact us" link.

 

I have the book (previous edition) because I'm considering that for the fall. I thought the shorter high school level class might be good for my middle school dc. I like the idea of someone else coming up with questions and doing the grading and my being at a bit of a distance. Mr. Suchocki has good points about why you should buy the latest editions from the publisher, but for middle school (as opposed to high school) those prices are too high. Especially without more endorsements.

 

We have not tried it yet.

 

I found it while looking through all the diy supplements for Conceptual Physics.

Edited May 27, 2017 by SusanC

[deerforest]

I've been tracking down the resources for Prufrock decade books, and I wish I got the PDFs. It's taking me so long trying to type the URLs and most of them are already outdated so I have to Google anyway. I've been at it for hours, and I still haven't finished the 1950s--just an FYI!! They look great, but tons of prep work!

Just realized that they have a link in the book that has a list of all the resources. Many of the links are still outdated but glad to have this. It's not easy to find, and I didn't realize it until I emailed them and asked! 

 

They also estimate 40 hours of teaching per decade...I'm thinking I'm going to have to trim this down a bit. I really was hoping to only spend about 6 weeks on each decade, but there are 10 lessons per decade. It really looks like a great program if I can get it sorted out. It would be very easy to just do 1 decade.

[fastweedpuller]

Hi Farrar, have you looked into any of Shelagh Gallagher's courses through RFWP?  Mostly they're geared toward classroom learning but "bigger questions" stuff is the point of studying them, and I think at least 2 of them have been modified for homeschooling one (or a couple of) kid(s). 

 

We did Plague! last year, very modified (just got the teacher manual, winged it from there for a mini study during Middle Ages cycle), but I am considering doing one again when we run through Modern next year.  So maybe Jane Addams/Hull House, or Chinese exclusion. 

[deerforest]

Hi Farrar, have you looked into any of Shelagh Gallagher's courses through RFWP?  Mostly they're geared toward classroom learning but "bigger questions" stuff is the point of studying them, and I think at least 2 of them have been modified for homeschooling one (or a couple of) kid(s). 

 

We did Plague! last year, very modified (just got the teacher manual, winged it from there for a mini study during Middle Ages cycle), but I am considering doing one again when we run through Modern next year.  So maybe Jane Addams/Hull House, or Chinese exclusion. 

 

How did you like it? We did Plague also and started out liking it, but then it quickly felt a bit too school-like with the materials. It seemed to be dragging things out a bit longer than we really needed even with the homeschool modified version. We finished it, but left it less excited than we started...

[Farrar]

Hi Farrar, have you looked into any of Shelagh Gallagher's courses through RFWP?  Mostly they're geared toward classroom learning but "bigger questions" stuff is the point of studying them, and I think at least 2 of them have been modified for homeschooling one (or a couple of) kid(s). 

 

We did Plague! last year, very modified (just got the teacher manual, winged it from there for a mini study during Middle Ages cycle), but I am considering doing one again when we run through Modern next year.  So maybe Jane Addams/Hull House, or Chinese exclusion. 

 

They do look interesting... and just the sort of thing I wanted to find... I know I've looked at them before. Were they too schooly? And how was modifying it for a single kid? I don't need something that's independent... but I also don't want something I'm going to spend a ton of prep time on trying to make it work. I could practically DIY if that was the case and part of what I want is materials where he sees someone else's questions and assignments, because I think that's a bit motivating for him right now.

[deerforest]

I found the thread where I first asked about it and then shared my in-progress review. We did finish but DD was over it by the end and opted not to do another.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/560650-plague-pbl-from-rfwp/?hl=%2Bplague&do=findComment&comment=6701419

Edited May 31, 2017 by deerforest

[Farrar]

They're not crazy expensive. I mean, for $40, I'll try something... but on the other hand, I think the ones ds would be interested in haven't been adapted so maybe that's not worth it.

[fastweedpuller]

How did you like it? We did Plague also and started out liking it, but then it quickly felt a bit too school-like with the materials. It seemed to be dragging things out a bit longer than we really needed even with the homeschool modified version. We finished it, but left it less excited than we started...

 

 

They do look interesting... and just the sort of thing I wanted to find... I know I've looked at them before. Were they too schooly? And how was modifying it for a single kid? I don't need something that's independent... but I also don't want something I'm going to spend a ton of prep time on trying to make it work. I could practically DIY if that was the case and part of what I want is materials where he sees someone else's questions and assignments, because I think that's a bit motivating for him right now.

We were doing HO2 at the time with Middle Ages, and I knew the kiddo was beginning to drag a bit with the format (outlining the encyclopedia etc.) so I purchased it as a mini-session.  She'd been a bit obsessed with Galileo at the time (I was reading Galileo's Daughter to her, was thinking medieval walled cities/city states were cool) so bam we did Plague!  Obviously I have commitment issues because I only purchased and used the TM.  It did direct for use with one child.  Most of her other problem-based studies are geared toward children in a class coming to a unified conclusion; this was one child acting as one elder of many of a town where the plague was on its way, and what to do about it.  We did like it in that hindsight is 20/20 and so how bad was it really that they would close their windows and leave milk out to absorb the evil vapors? Do you think that would work? kind of questions.  In other words, she did need to get in the head of someone of that era, and act authoritatively despite the superstitions and wackadoo medical knowledge, etc. that they had about plague.  For the good of the many and all that. 

 

Honestly, we only spent 2 weeks on it, between reading, questioning, seeing videos about the topic and doing directed research.  She summarized and drew pictures and recorded her thoughts as who she was in the town and why she decided what she did.  It was a good diversion for us.  But as the teacher I was pretty involved; most of our homeschool is set up as self-discovery then reflection so it stretched me beyond what I usually do. 

 

I agree the class-based ones would seem too school-y for a kid to muddle through on his own; it might be that he would have to pick a character and stick with it with guidance from you.  It would be engaging though, especially in terms of making him think if not just output and committing to producing something memorable.  And as you said, $40 is not a lot to outlay to at least try it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by fastweedpuller

[Saddlemomma]

Regarding science, since your DS likes GCP, why not choose a science from there?  That's what we did for DD for 8th.  We are splitting Joy of Science into two years. We just finished 8th Grade.  She will finish the lectures next year for her first science credit - Conceptual Integrated Science.

 

We purchased the text (used) corresponding to the course and DD kept a notebook.  She reviewed the online vocabulary daily and took the online quizzes. I also integrated academic articles, short videos, and documentaries as appropriate.  DD claimed it was her favorite class all year (it also had the most work associated with it ironically).  She can't wait to continue the course next year.

 

I'm sure your DS could find a science course on GCP that he would be enthused about.

 

FWIW, I will tell you that DD has disliked just about every other science we've ever done.  In fact, she never liked science and had little interest in it until this GCP class.  Now she wants to progress in Chemistry & Physics of all things.  I was stunned.  Another thing, I wouldn't call DD an accelerated or gifted student.  She's average.  She's a procrastinator and lazy.  However, if she really likes a class, she'll push herself more and really dig into the material.

 

Anyhoo, just a suggestion on my part.

[Farrar]

Hm... what about the 12-14 Moving Beyond the Page units? You can buy them as individual subjects and units. I'm thinking that's a possibility to offer.

[deerforest]

Hm... what about the 12-14 Moving Beyond the Page units? You can buy them as individual subjects and units. I'm thinking that's a possibility to offer.

 

I know you'll be surprised to hear that we had tried some of these units previously too... we tried in the 9-11 age range when she was younger. Again, just wasn't a great fit for us. I'll be honest and admit that I still felt like they were too much like school programs. It's an ongoing issue that I have with finding just the right sweet spot of probing and interesting questions and no output just for output's sake.

 

A local friend of mine wrote most of the history ones at that upper level, and she's wicked smart and a great historian. I just don't like the format of MBtP.

[Farrar]

I know you'll be surprised to hear that we had tried some of these units previously too... we tried in the 9-11 age range when she was younger. Again, just wasn't a great fit for us. I'll be honest and admit that I still felt like they were too much like school programs. It's an ongoing issue that I have with finding just the right sweet spot of probing and interesting questions and no output just for output's sake.

 

A local friend of mine wrote most of the history ones at that upper level, and she's wicked smart and a great historian. I just don't like the format of MBtP.

 

I thought you might have an answer! Ha.

 

Yeah, I've seen them. A friend did the 7-9 ages ago and I was really uninspired looking at them for exactly that reason. But, on the other hand, I feel like maybe he sort of needs that. He's a very diligent kid... just something about the things I'm assigning him aren't making him ever want to do more and I keep thinking maybe something more pre-set would. Or not. It just seems worth a try. 

[Pen]

I came to the conclusion that no matter how hard I tried, my ds, a bit older than yours just was not really "into" academics.  No curriculum I ever tried made my ds want to do more in terms of output (unless money was involved such as writing for Stone Soup publication)--though maybe yours will turn out different.  

 

What you describe your ballet boy as doing-algebra, language, some great courses, some reading, actually sounds pretty good to me. To me, all it sounds like he needs is some writing--anything for practice with that, and to make sure the reading or great courses includes some science and history.  

 

Or maybe he could get interested in the physics and or history of dancing. Or physiology for science. Possibly his own research and writing about it, rather than a "curriculum."  

 

My ds does push himself to do more in athletics, but school subjects just really aren't his thing...at least not at this age and stage. A friend of mine said her ds (also one of a pair of twins where the other was more academic younger) was like that until around age 16 when he found internal motivation and interest in academics, but that pushing it from the outside did not really help, and made her feel frustrated as well.

[Pen]

PS my ds started into public school this year where he still doesn't especially like academics, but he does like some types of projects such as if he can do it with someone else in a social way, or if it involves something like making a solar power car or a skateboard to learn about physics.  

[deerforest]

Pen's suggestion reminded me of something else we did this year. DD wanted to learn about anatomy and physiology from the perspective of an aerialist. We did a combination of Hole's anatomy, anatomy/physiology coloring book, Bozeman science videos, crash course videos, and blogs and videos and conditioning exercises from circus physiologists.

 

When I followed up with some physiologists and doctors who focus on circus performers, they also suggested a couple of books for more info: Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength, Dance Anatomy, and the Trail Guide to the Body. I am likely doing a follow up in a couple years using those resources. 

[Farrar]

I came to the conclusion that no matter how hard I tried, my ds, a bit older than yours just was not really "into" academics.  No curriculum I ever tried made my ds want to do more in terms of output (unless money was involved such as writing for Stone Soup publication)--though maybe yours will turn out different.  

 

What you describe your ballet boy as doing-algebra, language, some great courses, some reading, actually sounds pretty good to me. To me, all it sounds like he needs is some writing--anything for practice with that, and to make sure the reading or great courses includes some science and history.  

 

Or maybe he could get interested in the physics and or history of dancing. Or physiology for science. Possibly his own research and writing about it, rather than a "curriculum."  

 

My ds does push himself to do more in athletics, but school subjects just really aren't his thing...at least not at this age and stage. A friend of mine said her ds (also one of a pair of twins where the other was more academic younger) was like that until around age 16 when he found internal motivation and interest in academics, but that pushing it from the outside did not really help, and made her feel frustrated as well.

 

He does write. He likes to do creative writing and he's decent at it. I've been making him do formal writing. It's coming along. We're basically a Brave Writer family, though we cobble it together. What you're suggesting is basically what we already do. Like, this year, the only "curricula" he used was Dolciani Pre-A and the start of Algebra, some Daily Paragraph Editing, Figuratively Speaking, Duolingo, and Breaking the Barrier Spanish. Oh, and the Great Courses stuff. Everything else we DIY'ed. Which I'm totally fine with doing. I designed a "weird physics" unit for him in the fall that he enjoyed. And he did a study of meteorology. And he's interested in linguistics so I've been giving him little research assignments and letting him play with the OED when I can physically make myself haul it out.

 

I'm really not worried about him. I know he's doing fine. I just have observed that sometimes he does a little better with outside assignments. And he tends to take on too much when he's at the reins and then things fall apart and don't get finished. He rises a bit better to the challenge when it's an outside authority, even if that "authority" is just the textbook's questions. So I'd love for him to pick something and see if that works a little better. Just playing around and tweaking.

 

Also, if this child doesn't finish an effing science fair style project soon, I'm gonna lose it. We're on half finished project number four. Mushroom is writing up his observations of protozoa in two different infusions and getting ready to make his project board and print all his microscope photos. BalletBoy? OMG, guys. I think he might have just done better if he'd had a straightforward assignment instead of the whole world of projects to choose from.

[Farrar]

Pen's suggestion reminded me of something else we did this year. DD wanted to learn about anatomy and physiology from the perspective of an aerialist. We did a combination of Hole's anatomy, anatomy/physiology coloring book, Bozeman science videos, crash course videos, and blogs and videos and conditioning exercises from circus physiologists.

 

When I followed up with some physiologists and doctors who focus on circus performers, they also suggested a couple of books for more info: Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength, Dance Anatomy, and the Trail Guide to the Body. I am likely doing a follow up in a couple years using those resources. 

 

Both my kids mostly like school to be about things they know nothing about and they refuse to bring their passions into school. But I may propose doing a unit on dance anatomy next year. Even though you're messing with my desire to try not DIY'ing everything!

[deerforest]

Both my kids mostly like school to be about things they know nothing about and they refuse to bring their passions into school. But I may propose doing a unit on dance anatomy next year. Even though you're messing with my desire to try not DIY'ing everything!

 

Ha! Sorry, I can't stop the DIYing either.. It's killing me not to already start customizing OM English 8 and world geography next year. I'm dong my best to just have her do those as written; there are so many choices; I don't need to give more. Same with algebra 1 (we're going through again with AoPS after finishing Forester's). Spanish. Sticking to the book. But, I'm customizing the heck out of history and science. I can't help it.

[Pen]

He does write. He likes to do creative writing and he's decent at it. I've been making him do formal writing. It's coming along. We're basically a Brave Writer family, though we cobble it together. What you're suggesting is basically what we already do. Like, this year, the only "curricula" he used was Dolciani Pre-A and the start of Algebra, some Daily Paragraph Editing, Figuratively Speaking, Duolingo, and Breaking the Barrier Spanish. Oh, and the Great Courses stuff. Everything else we DIY'ed. Which I'm totally fine with doing. I designed a "weird physics" unit for him in the fall that he enjoyed. And he did a study of meteorology. And he's interested in linguistics so I've been giving him little research assignments and letting him play with the OED when I can physically make myself haul it out.

 

I'm really not worried about him. I know he's doing fine. I just have observed that sometimes he does a little better with outside assignments. And he tends to take on too much when he's at the reins and then things fall apart and don't get finished. He rises a bit better to the challenge when it's an outside authority, even if that "authority" is just the textbook's questions. So I'd love for him to pick something and see if that works a little better. Just playing around and tweaking.

 

Also, if this child doesn't finish an effing science fair style project soon, I'm gonna lose it. We're on half finished project number four. Mushroom is writing up his observations of protozoa in two different infusions and getting ready to make his project board and print all his microscope photos. BalletBoy? OMG, guys. I think he might have just done better if he'd had a straightforward assignment instead of the whole world of projects to choose from.

 

 

Sounds like science is something of a passion for Mushroom, but maybe not so much for BalletBoy.

 

And maybe learning  how big a project is doable would be a useful skill for BB--which may come with trial and error.  Or maybe needing to get an okay on one project and finish it with an outside person, next time, rather than with you could help.

 

If you think what he's already done for science is not enough, maybe he could just read a book or two on some other subject of science and narrate to you what he learned, or something like that, and call science done.

 

Hogwartsishere thing online had had a good astronomy class (mostly real not Wizard based content), but I think it was too much work for the "teachers" there and it got simplified and essays are apparently no longer required. You could check that though as a fun science with some outside accountability. Sort of.

 

I've never done a science fair style project. Doesn't seem to me to be worth losing it over.

 

Still seems to me that Ballet Boy is doing very well. Better than "fine."  Plenty, now that you make clear he is writing. And maybe he could take an online Bravewriter class for some outside accountability in that. Do they have ones that include literature reading and writing about it?

 

And I guess from his name that he also does ballet, and assume that to be a passion.

[Farrar]

Maybe I'm not explaining it right. He really is doing very well. I'm not concerned. Wanting to work on something doesn't have to equal concern. He actually does like science, probably more than his brother - his brother is just good at creating good output. It's more that he struggles to finish things sometimes. But I'm employing hyperbole when I express my frustration. Really, it's all good. I'd just like some ideas for programs to shake up his routine a little and give him not 100% mom created assignments all the time because that seems to be working for him at the moment. It would also maybe be nice for me not to have to plan everything. But if I end up planning everything, that's okay too. I don't lack confidence in doing that.

 

Ballet is absolutely his passion. We're hoping he's able to continue. I'm happy to pay for ballet all the way through and every summer and take him to all the auditions he likes for as long as they let him dance. But he's also unlikely to have the natural attributes (other than sheer determination) to go professional, so it would be nice to foster some future other passions.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I skimmed through this so my suggestion may not be good but I found my kid performs better for someone other than myself. I noted yesterday that RFWP has online courses now even with Michael Clay Thompson. Then there is G3 online classes which look interesting as well as WTM Academy.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I forgot to add that I was going to consider at least 1 or 2 of these sorts of online courses for the trouble areas since money is an issue. Right now my kid remains in that charter school and it looks like he will be staying since the experience has gotten better:)

[Farrar]

I forgot to add that I was going to consider at least 1 or 2 of these sorts of online courses for the trouble areas since money is an issue. Right now my kid remains in that charter school and it looks like he will be staying since the experience has gotten better:)

 

Good to know! I "saw" you here the other day and wondered if you guys were thinking about homeschooling again. But I've also heard that particular charter has gotten better socially from a couple of people, so that's good too!

 

MCT has never worked for BalletBoy, but the G3 stuff might. I want him to do a little more online stuff. We dropped the ball on that this spring.

[LAR]

We have had great success with Online Groovy Kids classes.  DD likes the format - it's independent (questions, quizzes, readings, activities) yet she answers to an outside authority. The projects are always fun and creative and offer the student a chance to present a project to the class at the end of the course.