Got CAT test results.... :(

[journey00]

My 13 yo son just finished 7th grade & we took the 8th CAT, online & un-timed. We did not do any test prep because my state doesn't require assessment tests..this is purely for my benefit. We broke it up over 3 days time and I made sure he was fed, well rested, and minimum distractions. Everything came back a stanine point lower than last year's CAT test except for spelling.  I was positive he was going to do much better. I am so disappointed because I added Easy Grammar, Bravewriter, Prodigy Math, Acellus, and have been much more consistent this year. Last year, we didn't use any type of formal grammar book. 

 

This is our 6th year homeschooling.  Now, I'm really at a loss about curriculum & what to do for the upcoming year & the fact that I may have had a homeschool fail this year.  How will I be able to prepare him for high school?  What would you do different?

 

         

Edited May 12, 2017 by journey00

[journey00]

DP

Edited May 12, 2017 by journey00

[luuknam]

Is there a big jump between the 7th & 8th grade CAT test skills? My 13 yo son just finished 7th grade & we took the 8th CAT, online & un-timed. The instructions said choose the grade for the year he is going into & NOT the year he just finished.  

 

Everything came back a stanine point lower except for spelling.

 

 

I'm a little unclear on this... everything came back a stanine point lower than what? Than a test he took a year ago? Which test and which grade did he take a year ago? Or am I misinterpreting that?

 

I don't know about the online CAT (which is the CAT 5, I assume?). I know about the CAT6/TerraNova, and for that one the instructions are to give it of the grade you're in, for the part of the year you're in. So, assuming you run a regular school year, Spring norms of the year you're in (or just finished) from March 1st until Aug 31st. 

[journey00]

Yes, everything came back a stanine point lower than the Cat test taken last year through the Academic Excellence website.  The developer of the test McGraw Hill defined the test so that when conducting end of year testing you specify grade you are going into.  The material being tested on is up to 8th grade and not as being in 8th grade. That's what the website stated.  So, last year he did 7th & this year he did 8th since he's going into 8th.  I know...clear as mud.  Sorry.  Maybe, I will change the original wording of original post.  Thanks.

Edited May 12, 2017 by journey00

[luuknam]

Yes, everything came back a stanine point lower than the Cat test taken last year through the Academic Excellence website.  The developer of the test McGraw Hill defined the test so that when conducting end of year testing you specify grade you are going into.  The material being tested on is up to 8th grade and not as being in 8th grade. That's what the website stated.  So, last year he did 7th & this year he did 8th since he's going into 8th.  I know...clear as mud.  Sorry.  Maybe, I will change the original wording of original post.  Thanks.

 

 

Okay, so you are comparing apples and apples at least - same test, one grade level apart, taken one year apart. Then, I'm not sure - it's possible he was right on the border between those stanines both times, so that it's not a 'real' drop... you'd want to look at the percentiles as well. I don't have the stanine cut-offs memorized, but if, for example, the 1st stanine is from the 1st-11th percentile and the 2nd stanine from the 12th-22nd percentile, and last year he scored at the 12th percentile and this year at the 11th percentile, then that's not a statistically significant difference. Whereas if last year he scored at the 22nd percentile and this year at the 1st percentile, then that is a huge drop. In both cases though, that would show up as 2nd stanine last year, and 1st stanine this year. 

 

ETA: It might be helpful if you could post actual percentile scores from both years. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by luuknam

[luuknam]

Oh, and when you say you did not do any test prep, I assume you meant you did not do any test prep either year? Because if you did test prep last year but not this year, then that could of course have an impact too. 

[journey00]

Thanks for your help luuknam.

 

No test prep last year or this year.

 

Percentile Ranking       2016      2017

 

Language:

 Mechanics                    69           32

 Usage & Structure        51           32

 Spelling                        34           48

Language Composite    65           33

 

Math

 Computation                 42          47

 Concepts & Problems   76          42

Math Composite             60          44

 

Reading

  Vocabulary                   66           49

  Comprehension           74           58

Reading Composite       71           53

 

Total Comp                    62           42

 

I just can't believe the huge difference this year.  I'm with him daily & this is not indicative of what I see from him.  I'm just kind of baffled here.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by journey00

[Junie]

I don't have any experience with the CAT test (other than when I took it myself 30ish years ago).  However, I do have some experience with reading test scores.

 

It looks like he had a huge jump in grammar skills!  Mechanics especially went up a lot.

 

It does look like he's still struggling quite a bit, though.   :(  I'm sorry.

 

Is it possible that he doesn't do well with online testing?

 

With the scores that he got last year, I believe that I would have had him repeat the grade, although maybe with different materials.  I don't know.

 

I know this is not what either you or your son wants to hear, but I don't believe that he is ready for 8th grade.

 

Some of his scores improved this year, but many of them are still below average.  If it were me, I would want him to be better prepared and have a solid foundation for 8th grade and high school.  I believe that this would be nearly impossible by going ahead to 8th grade this fall.

 

Do you usually do schoolwork in the summer?  Maybe some intensive work over the summer would help him.

 

If you want to post stanine scores or whatever else you have (or send me a pm), I'll do my best to help you figure out where he is struggling the most and by how much.

 

Maybe parents who have given the CAT will be able to give you other insight or tell me if I'm completely off base.

 

 

Edited to add:  OP changed the test scores in her post after I posted this.

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Junie

[journey00]

Junie, thank you so much for your honest reply. I really appreciate it. Yes, it does look like he jumped in grammar skills. I just don't know if he hurried through the test or what because this boy LOVES to read and always has a good book in his hand. Thanks again for your suggestions. :)

[Junie]

Looking at this again and reading about how much your son loves to read, I have changed my mind.   :)  I think that you would be ok moving ahead -- but maybe not for math.  

 

His computation improved from the previous year and is close to the 50 percent (average), so maybe some drilling over the summer would boost that even a little bit more.  Many kids forget quite a bit of math over the summer.  You want to keep him moving ahead.

 

The score that seems the most worrisome is the math concepts and problems.  He really needs to get this score up before pre-algebra.  Algebra is my own nemesis and I have always struggled with it because I didn't get a good foundation.  

 

Maybe you could do some kind of math program over the summer to shore up his skills before going on to 8th grade in the fall?  Maybe you could start a new thread and get answers from people who know math better than I do?

 

Do you know what the reading test was like?  We use the Stanford tests here and some of the reading is very different from what my kids usually read.  Some of it might be written more like a journal article which is not the same as reading a book.  Also, one year one of my girls didn't do well in reading because she misunderstood the directions.

 

It does not sound like this was a failed year at all.  Your son is doing better overall than he was the year before and will hopefully do better next year than he did this year!!

 

Edited to add:  OP changed her posting with test scores after I posted this.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Junie

[luuknam]

Okay, I'm not sure if you typed the scores wrong (since you said in your initial post that all his stanines dropped except spelling), but based on what you typed his scores improved a fair amount on mechanics, usage & structure, and spelling, and stayed roughly the same on math computation (small increase but not big enough that I'd consider it to be a meaningful difference), and dropped a fair amount on math concepts & problems, vocabulary, and comprehension.

 

Anyway... I'd be inclined to have him work through a 7th grade test prep book this summer, at least for the areas in which his scores dropped, and see which questions he gets wrong and why. I've used Carney's CAT 6 prep grades 1, 2, and 5, and Scoring High grade 3, and in a number of ways I like Scoring High better - I think I'm going to just go with Scoring High next year - Carney's is cheaper though (and yes, these are both for the CAT 6, not the CAT 5, but I don't think it'd matter much):

 

http://www.setontesting.com/scoring-high-on-the-terranovacat/

 

https://www.amazon.com/How-Prepare-CAT-7th-Grade/dp/1930288166

 

I'm saying that because while you work with him and know what he can and can't do, I'm not sure if you know what's on these tests, and knowing which questions he's getting wrong and why is going to be helpful in knowing where things went off the rails. In fact, I give the paper test partially because I 'grade' it before mailing it back, so I know what the kids got wrong (we're in the middle of testing right now, and I just found out today that my 6yo doesn't know what a root word is), and I'm just mailing it in to know how that affects their percentile score (oh, and because in NY kids have to score >33rd percentile for annual assessment reasons). 

 

Other than that, unfortunately I'm not familiar with any of the programs you use, so I can't really give feedback on any of those. I did notice that you said you've been more consistent this year, which makes it seem like maybe you weren't that consistent before... and it's frustrating when you work harder and you don't get better results, but everybody tends to kick things up a notch as kids older, so maybe you need even more consistency and kick things up another notch. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

I never look at stanines for my dd's CAT Test scores.  I only look at Grade Level Equivalents.  What were those?  Did they match up with where he is?  You would ideally want 7.9 or better, since he's seventh grade, ninth month, approximately.  As long as Grade Level Equivalents are good, I don't get too worried.

[...................]

Did his scores improve or drop? Other than the last section it looks like they really improved.

 

How long have you homeschooled?

 

To be honest I never think that much of our standardized tests scores. They already tell me whaT I already know. They always tell me that my kids have the same exact strong and weak points they do in everyday life, and the overall score is about where both my kids really are as far as just "book smarts",

 

They also tell me whatever test my dd takes last she will fail becusse she absolutely hates silence and sitting still. I can always completely throw out the score for whatever she takes last!

 

Honestly, is your kid about a little above average as far as "book smarts?" That's what this test shows. Maybe it's about right.

 

Also these tests don't measure patience, perseverance and work ethic which are much more accurate assessments of future success that any standardized test.

 

The fact that someone told you to consider leaving your son back and that he is not ready for 8th (even though she did change on that) is absolutely shocking to me and completely the opposite of what advice I've normally seen here.

 

I would gauge whether he is ready for 8th grade on his finals in math and writing skills and overall maturity and that's it. You are homeschooling to eat OUT of the ridiculous mindset and system where a single test score determines a child's life and a teacher's "effectiveness" it is a completely broken system.

 

Now I am not saying you are wrong to LOOK at the numbers and USE them as a tool to see what direction to take, but honestly I cannot and do not see them as that useful and effective to be telling you whether to repeat an entire grade.

[...................]

And FWIW my dd has an A in math every year and she does poorly in computation because all the pressure (and the silence, and sitting still) gets to her ans she just totally mixes up numbers. You know how your sons computation really is. You see it every day on the math you grade. So i would use his every day scores for computation, especially.

[Lori D.]

I don't know if this is possible with online testing, but could he have gotten off track of which answers went with which problem -- like filling in the wrong bubbles by accident when doing a printed test?

 

 

Or, I'm wondering if the concepts being tested on the CAT were a huge jump up or greatly differed from what you were covering this year, which would mean the test was meaningless if it was testing material DS had not yet been exposed to...

 

Or, maybe he's fine doing the work and learning, but just not a good test-taker?

 

How do you think DS is progressing day to day, or overall progress from one grade to the next? What do his math end of chapter tests look like? If he's moving forward, then perhaps chalk this up to just having a random bad test day? 

 

:grouphug:

Edited May 13, 2017 by Lori D.

[Faithful_Steward]

Sorry, I'm on my phone and couldn't see your sig...

Edited May 13, 2017 by Faithful_Steward

[Junie]

***

 

The fact that someone told you to consider leaving your son back and that he is not ready for 8th (even though she did change on that) is absolutely shocking to me and completely the opposite of what advice I've normally seen here.

 

***

 

When I looked at the scores again after my original post, I saw that most of the scores in the 40s were actually really close to 50 (average).

 

When the OP told me that her son loves to read, that also caused me to reconsider my original advice.  If her son hated to read and refused to ever pick up a book, sending him to the next grade would probably cause his reading comprehension scores to drop again.  The fact that he loves to read and frequently reads (as the OP later said) gives confidence that the test was perhaps not an accurate assessment.

 

However, the advice that I have seen on this board is that our kids need to be really, really solid in pre-algebra skills in order to do well in high school math and science.  And, IME, this is absolutely correct.  I had a horrible algebra background and it hindered me all the way through college.

 

 

 

edited for clarity

Edited May 13, 2017 by Junie

[journey00]

I never look at stanines for my dd's CAT Test scores.  I only look at Grade Level Equivalents.  What were those?  Did they match up with where he is?  You would ideally want 7.9 or better, since he's seventh grade, ninth month, approximately.  As long as Grade Level Equivalents are good, I don't get too worried.

 

His grade level equivalents:

 

Reading Comp: 8.3

Math Comp:      7.7

Lang Comp:     6.8 (a little lower than I expected)

Total Grade Level Equiv:  7.6

 

So that's not horrible right? It is pretty normal then.  Thanks for explaining that & giving me another way to look at it. 

[journey00]

Okay, I'm not sure if you typed the scores wrong (since you said in your initial post that all his stanines dropped except spelling), but based on what you typed his scores improved a fair amount on mechanics, usage & structure, and spelling, and stayed roughly the same on math computation (small increase but not big enough that I'd consider it to be a meaningful difference), and dropped a fair amount on math concepts & problems, vocabulary, and comprehension.

 

Anyway... I'd be inclined to have him work through a 7th grade test prep book this summer, at least for the areas in which his scores dropped, and see which questions he gets wrong and why. I've used Carney's CAT 6 prep grades 1, 2, and 5, and Scoring High grade 3, and in a number of ways I like Scoring High better - I think I'm going to just go with Scoring High next year - Carney's is cheaper though (and yes, these are both for the CAT 6, not the CAT 5, but I don't think it'd matter much):

 

http://www.setontesting.com/scoring-high-on-the-terranovacat/

 

https://www.amazon.com/How-Prepare-CAT-7th-Grade/dp/1930288166

 

I'm saying that because while you work with him and know what he can and can't do, I'm not sure if you know what's on these tests, and knowing which questions he's getting wrong and why is going to be helpful in knowing where things went off the rails. In fact, I give the paper test partially because I 'grade' it before mailing it back, so I know what the kids got wrong (we're in the middle of testing right now, and I just found out today that my 6yo doesn't know what a root word is), and I'm just mailing it in to know how that affects their percentile score (oh, and because in NY kids have to score >33rd percentile for annual assessment reasons). 

 

Other than that, unfortunately I'm not familiar with any of the programs you use, so I can't really give feedback on any of those. I did notice that you said you've been more consistent this year, which makes it seem like maybe you weren't that consistent before... and it's frustrating when you work harder and you don't get better results, but everybody tends to kick things up a notch as kids older, so maybe you need even more consistency and kick things up another notch. 

 

Yes, I typed the numbers wrong..I re did them..sorry for the confusion.  That's great advice and I think I will use a 7th grade test prep book over the summer.  Thank you so much for the advice. :)

 

 

[Ms.Ivy]

The only thing a percentile does is tell you how he compares to other kids who took the same test in a particular year. So maybe the curriculum the schools used where they normed the test had a different emphasis on certain things than you did. Maybe he was way "ahead" last year and this year he learned more, but the students he is being compared to have finally caught up to him.

 

If you are bothered by the results, maybe have him take the Stanford 10 or CAT-5 online through Seton and see what it looks like before you do anything drastic. Seton even has an algebra readiness test you could try.

[journey00]

 

 

Or, I'm wondering if the concepts being tested on the CAT were a huge jump up or greatly differed from what you were covering this year, which would mean the test was meaningless if it was testing material DS had not yet been exposed to...

^^^^This, this, this! This kept running through my head.

 

Or, maybe he's fine doing the work and learning, but just not a good test-taker? Also a possibility.

 

How do you think DS is progressing day to day, or overall progress from one grade to the next? What do his math end of chapter tests look like? If he's moving forward, then perhaps chalk this up to just having a random bad test day? 

He does really well which is why I was taken back with the score.  He's totally moving forward with his learning and reads so much.  We are using Teaching Textbooks which I have heard that it doesn't have the same scope & sequence as other math programs but in high school it catches up and it all pans out.  I sure hope so because I don't want to find out in high school that I should have switched him.  Ugh.  Ty Ty Ty so much!

 

:grouphug:

 

[journey00]

The only thing a percentile does is tell you how he compares to other kids who took the same test in a particular year. So maybe the curriculum the schools used where they normed the test had a different emphasis on certain things than you did. Maybe he was way "ahead" last year and this year he learned more, but the students he is being compared to have finally caught up to him.

 

If you are bothered by the results, maybe have him take the Stanford 10 or CAT-5 online through Seton and see what it looks like before you do anything drastic. Seton even has an algebra readiness test you could try.

 

This makes a lot of sense, thank you.  I will look into those tests online.  Thanks!!

 

[Junie]

His grade level equivalents:

 

Reading Comp: 8.3

Math Comp:      7.7

Lang Comp:     6.8 (a little lower than I expected)

Total Grade Level Equiv:  7.6

 

So that's not horrible right? It is pretty normal then.  Thanks for explaining that & giving me another way to look at it. 

 

These numbers look good.  :)

 

I guess I thought that these numbers were either not provided or they were low and that's what prompted your concern.

 

I'm sorry if I gave you or your son cause for worry.

[Ms.Ivy]

His grade level equivalents:

 

Reading Comp: 8.3

Math Comp: 7.7

Lang Comp: 6.8 (a little lower than I expected)

Total Grade Level Equiv: 7.6

 

So that's not horrible right? It is pretty normal then. Thanks for explaining that & giving me another way to look at it.

That is totally normal. You are doing fine!

[Ausmumof3]

I wouldn't drop a grade based on one test. I don't exactly know what the testing is like but if it's similar to the one we did ds bombed maths a couple of years ago. Ok he didn't totally bomb it but he scored just above the needs intervention cut off. When I looked in more detail I realised that he'd basically scored zero on one section which was statistics. We hadn't done statistics yet but it was the next ch in the math book.

 

We hadn't done any test prep.

 

Also because the percentiles are relative to how everyone else scored if the majority of school kids do test prep and you don't you will score slightly lower. It doesn't mean much except that you didn't do prep.

 

I know you said you added heaps of stuff but one other thing I've noticed (because I did the same thing after our score) is that doesn't always help. Sometimes you can add too much and overload and it's actually better to pare back a little and let the brain have some time to absorb the information.

 

All of that said we aren't at high school level yet so take this with a grain of salt or as a general comment on testing not necessarily specific to your situation.

[luuknam]

Yes, I typed the numbers wrong..I re did them..sorry for the confusion.  That's great advice and I think I will use a 7th grade test prep book over the summer.  Thank you so much for the advice. :)

 

 

So, fwiw, I thought Scoring High was much truer to the test than Carney's - but, of course, "the test" is not the test your son took, so not sure it matters. Or maybe you could find a CAT 5 prep book.

 

Another thought that crossed my mind was that I've seen various people post that their young teens go through a period of brain fog. I'm going to assume that that hits different kids at different times (and different severities), so if it hit your son hard this year, that could temporarily depress his scores. 

[MerryAtHope]

Honestly, I wouldn't make any decisions based on one year's standardized test results. There's so much more to assess than what tests can show, and there can be all kinds of reasons for scores to be up or down from year to year. I always considered testing only a small part of the whole picture. I think it's much more important that you have seen your son learn and progress and that you've felt he was making good progress. It would be a different story if you felt the year didn't go well and testing confirmed that. As you said, the results are baffling because they don't match your year. So, maybe look at some specifics (areas they highlight as needing work), but don't doubt yourself because of one set of low test scores. If you like what you've been using, keep using it. Scope and sequences can vary a lot. I remember one year my kids missed a bunch of questions because I hadn't taught them how to write a business letter yet. That just meant I needed to add that in somewhere, not that our year was a failure. Don't let testing color how you view your homeschool and your child's progress. It sounds like you had a great year otherwise, and that's always something to celebrate.