Physics Sequence and AP Physics

[Aras]

Can anyone give me some btdt advice on physics for a kid who wants to go into engineering?

 

My original plan was to do the physics first approach, and do Conceptual Physics in 9th, and then the 1-year AP Physics in 12th. But... the AP Physics exam is now two exams. Ack!

 

Questions:

 

1. Does anyone attempt both courses/exams in one year? Is that madness for a regular, but motivated kid?

 

2. Would it still be helpful to do Conceptual Physics first, and then do AP Physics? We are just starting Algebra now, and we will work on it over the summer. That was one of the reasons to do Conceptual first. 

 

3. Skip the Conceptual Physics and go straight into the math heavy physics? 

 

Comments:

We are planning to do physics at home; I took Calculus based physics in college and I feel confident about teaching it. Ds won't be studying Calculus until 12th, so the Calculus based exam is out. Either way it seems like we will be committing to 2 years of physics.

 

I have been going around and around about high school physics, ugh. 

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

For a future engineer, I'd skip conceptual physics and take a strong algebra-based physics instead. The text by Giancoli (using the old AP Physics B syllabus) is terrific. You could start it after he has basic algebra under his belt, and just take it at his pace.

 

I'm not a fan of the new AP Physics 1 and 2 exams. They currently have one of the lowest passing rates of all the APs. College Board says they're for kids taking physics for the first time, but the AP teacher listserve run by CB is full of disagreement. The conceptual level demanded in those courses (particularly Physics 1) is tremendous. There aren't a lot of good prep materials yet, either. I'm hearing that it might be OK for the very good reasoners (ie high IQ) kids, but that Physics 1 is a real stretch for others.

 

The C exams are fine, though. Some kids do take them concurrently with Calculus & do well, so that might be a consideration for grade 12. But one year of strong alg-based physics is fine college prep for engineering majors.

 

[regentrude]

I would skip conceptual physics for a strong student (unless you want to do it in the middle grades) and begin with a rigorous algebra based physics in 8th or 9th grade. You then have the option to follow up with calc based physics in 11th or 12th grade (one of my kids went that route). Alternatively, you can postpone calc based physics until college.

I would not bother with the algebra based AP Physics 1+2 since an engineering student will be required to take calculus based physics in college, and the exams would not give any college credit - so they are pretty useless. They don't give credit to the strong STEM students since they need calc based for their majors,a nd the weak students won't take them - I don't see what their purpose is at all.

 

ETA: Reread your post and saw that your student does not yet have the math. In that case, do bio first and an alg/trig based physics later in high school. Since he won't get to calc until 12th,  calc based phys will have to be done in college. That's fine. He will still be ahead of the curve; a quarter of my engineering students never had physics at all in high school.

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Kathy recommends the Giancoli text, and I second this recommendation. Just be careful: he has algebra based physics and calculus based physics ones.

I personally like Knight, Jones, Field College Physics and used that with my kids for algebra based physics.

I have shared my schedule and syllabus on this board and would be happy to share my lecture notes with you - send me a pm.

Hope things are going well for you, aras :)

[Julie of KY]

I've done it both ways - both with gifted math students.

 

DS1 - lots of conceptual physics exposure simply by reading, but no physics course before AP calc based physics.

He planned to do both AP Mechanics and E&M in the same year. He finished Mechanics before Christmas, but as he felt he didn't have a good teacher, he opted to take an additional math class in the spring rather than continue with E&M. I have no doubts that he could have done this if he had wanted.

 

DS2 - did Derek Owens honors physics - strong algebra based physics and he will follow up with AP calc based physics.

 

I agree with the others to be hesitant of the new Physics 1 and 2 courses. 

[Guest]

In my neck of the woods, skipping conceptual physics and taking AP as the first class is done by strong in math science minded students at good high schools. The next level would take Honors Regents Physics then AP Physics. The level of AP offered would depend on the school population. My area has changed greatly, and no longer offers anything but Regents Physics, which is so dumbed down that it means students from here who go on to engineering will be spending time in tutoring at state u, and view physics as a flunk out course rather than fun. So, my advice is take an Honors level course of some kind. I only had gen ed available myself, so college physics took a bit of time as I made up the gap.

 

My son took AP Physics 1 the first year offered, from JHU CTY. He was well prepared, the course was exactly what I expected, very similar to Physics 101 for science majors at my eng college. His instructor did not restrict the math to algebra based. He was well prepared for engineering physics at his eng college.

[Aras]

Thank you so much for all of the replies! I think we should skip the conceptual physics and go straight to algebra based physics. He knows he has some challenging years ahead and he swears he is ready for it. 

 

 

 

ETA: Reread your post and saw that your student does not yet have the math. In that case, do bio first and an alg/trig based physics later in high school. Since he won't get to calc until 12th,  calc based phys will have to be done in college. That's fine. He will still be ahead of the curve; a quarter of my engineering students never had physics at all in high school.

 

We are doing Life Science this year and we don't want to see it again for a couple of years!  :laugh:

 

He wants to do robotics/shop/maker projects during the high school years so I think an algebra based physics would serve him well. He is very motivated so I think he will be fine with an algebra text and we will make the AP Physics C decision when he is an upperclassman. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Aras

[Guest]

Only one AP Physics will do. It is a mindset switch, plus real labs and how to write them up. recommend extra time to go to projects, math, and learning a programming language. Don't skimp on communication skills...should be competent presenting and writing. No regrets on AP Lit here.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[daijobu]

Our science sequence for high school was:

 

9th: AP chemistry

10th: AP biology

11th: AP physics (next year)

12th: dunno!

 

Reiterating that calculus is either a prerequisite or a corequisite (should be taken at the same time) for AP physics C.  Since we school year round, dd is getting a head start on ap calculus bc this year, studying with me from the AoPS textbook.  I am under the impression that each AP physics (mechanics and e&m) is a semester course.  They can be taken in one year or you can choose one or the other.  AFAIK, you can take AP physics from PAH or more independently using Physics Prep or self-study.  

[mirabillis]

Our science sequence for high school was:

 

9th: AP chemistry

10th: AP biology

11th: AP physics (next year)

12th: dunno!

 

Reiterating that calculus is either a prerequisite or a corequisite (should be taken at the same time) for AP physics C.  Since we school year round, dd is getting a head start on ap calculus bc this year, studying with me from the AoPS textbook.  I am under the impression that each AP physics (mechanics and e&m) is a semester course.  They can be taken in one year or you can choose one or the other.  AFAIK, you can take AP physics from PAH or more independently using Physics Prep or self-study.  

 

We also plan for Physics in 11th grade.... but I was thinking of AP Physics 1/2. But now you guys have me rethinking that... I had also considered DO Honors Physics (w/ SAT Subj II test - as we're UC-hopeful and need to make it 'a-g' approved by either AP exam/SAT II test). And I figure if we're going to that much work with DO, we should just jump the shark and do AP. Helps the GPA, helps show additional rigor, helps toward propelling us toward National AP Scholar...

 

So... if AP, what AP Physics should we do? Should we jump straight to Physics C with no previous Physics experience? He'll be in AP Calc that same year (11th).

 

Thanks!

[MarkT]

I totally disagree with skipping conceptual physics.  You should look at a "conceptual physics plus" course such as Jetta's for 9th grade or take a regular conceptual physics in 8th . You could borrow material from the AP Physics 1 and 2. Too many students learn Physics as give me the equations and I will bang out the answer without really understanding it.

 

Take the AP Physics C Senior year after the Calculus AB AP (or equivalent) taken Junior year.

 

==================================

My DS is taking AP Physics 1 this year as a Junior concurrent with Chemistry and AP Physics 2 next year as a Senior only because that is all the AP Physics his B&M school offers, We are skipping those AP exams.He took the conceptual physics course in 9th. We may also look into self-study for the AP Physics C Mechanics exam for his Senior year. 

 

[regentrude]

 Too many students learn Physics as give me the equations and I will bang out the answer without really understanding it.

 

I completely agree with this, but disagree with the conclusion that the student must take conceptual physics to avoid this.

Concepts should be taught in any physics class, and it is up to the instructor whether they want to make it equation grabbing or emphasize understanding. The issue is in the low quality of teaching, not the lack of a separate conceptual course.

[Guest]

Strong students here do skip conceptual, because it isn't much more than middle school science. Had we a do over, we would have skipped Regents level. I didn't realize at the time that going directly to AP was the standard path here for students who are double accel or greater in math (taking calc 1 and 2 or higher as juniors). No harm though as teacher was excellent.

[mirabillis]

We also plan for Physics in 11th grade.... but I was thinking of AP Physics 1/2. But now you guys have me rethinking that... I had also considered DO Honors Physics (w/ SAT Subj II test - as we're UC-hopeful and need to make it 'a-g' approved by either AP exam/SAT II test). And I figure if we're going to that much work with DO, we should just jump the shark and do AP. Helps the GPA, helps show additional rigor, helps toward propelling us toward National AP Scholar...

 

So... if AP, what AP Physics should we do? Should we jump straight to Physics C with no previous Physics experience? He'll be in AP Calc that same year (11th).

 

Thanks!

 

 

Just bumping - to see if anyone can answer this? :-)

[regentrude]

Just bumping - to see if anyone can answer this? :-)

 

What is the student's goal?

If I were to jump through the hoop of doing AP exams and subjecting my kid to high stakes testing where everything hinges on the performance on a  single exam, I would want college credit out of it. AP Phys 1 and 2 do not give credit towards any STEM major, with the exception of biology at some colleges. I would not waste my time on those.

Also, some colleges require SAT2 subject tests, and AP exams are not accepted as a substitute.

 

So, the best route will depend on the student's future goals.

 

(FWIW, we did no APs at all. DD did DE for calc based physics. Credit did not transfer to her terminal college, but she was able to place into the honors version of the class).

[daijobu]

This article might help with your decision.  

 

Come to think of it, I did a bit of conceptual physics informally with my kids when they were in middle school, using Thinking Physics.  It isn't a curriculum, but a fun book full of thought experiments.  

"Will hanging a magnet in front of an iron car make the car go?"  

"A rubber bullet and an aluminum bullet both have the same size, speed, and mass.  They are fired at a block of wood.  Which is most likely to knock the block over?  Which is most likely to damage the block?"  

"Mighty Mike weights 200 lbs and is running down the football field at 8 ft/s.  Speedy Gonzales weights only 100 lbs but runs 16 ft/s.  Ponderous Poncho weights 400 lbs and runs only 4 ft/s.  In the encounter, who will be more effective at stopping Mike?  Who is more likely to break Mike's bones?"  

 

Each thought experiment has a detailed solution, and it was a lot of fun.  Other than that, my daughter has had not high school physics, but she wants a STEM career, is pretty good at math, and really wants to try AP physics C.  We've had good luck so far with the previous AP classes and no prior high school level course work, and she's very good about making sure she has complete understanding of everything.  (Ask me how I know.)  

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

This article might help with your decision.  

 

Come to think of it, I did a bit of conceptual physics informally with my kids when they were in middle school, using Thinking Physics.  It isn't a curriculum, but a fun book full of thought experiments.  

"Will hanging a magnet in front of an iron car make the car go?"  

"A rubber bullet and an aluminum bullet both have the same size, speed, and mass.  They are fired at a block of wood.  Which is most likely to knock the block over?  Which is most likely to damage the block?"  

"Mighty Mike weights 200 lbs and is running down the football field at 8 ft/s.  Speedy Gonzales weights only 100 lbs but runs 16 ft/s.  Ponderous Poncho weights 400 lbs and runs only 4 ft/s.  In the encounter, who will be more effective at stopping Mike?  Who is more likely to break Mike's bones?"  

 

Each thought experiment has a detailed solution, and it was a lot of fun.  Other than that, my daughter has had not high school physics, but she wants a STEM career, is pretty good at math, and really wants to try AP physics C.  We've had good luck so far with the previous AP classes and no prior high school level course work, and she's very good about making sure she has complete understanding of everything.  (Ask me how I know.)  

 

I'm another one who loves Thinking Physics!

 

We also pretty much covered physics conceptually by the end of middle school through library reading, lots of science museum time, and working through fun kits like Radio Shack circuit kits & books like Developing Critical Thinking through Science and various Janice Van Cleave volumes.

 

Dd jumped right into Ap Physics C as her first formal physics course. It was just fine, and I think it will be likewise for your daughter.

[mirabillis]

Our goals are thus - as UC-hopefuls we are striving to fulfill a-g requirements. So if we take Physics, I'd like it to 'count' - and that pretty much means an AP exam or SAT II test. He'll already have Bio with SAT II (so science SATII) and AP Chem (so science AP). 

 

I figure if the workload with DO Physics w/SATII is similar in nature to AP Physics C - then why not take AP Physics C and get the benefit of another AP exam under his belt? We are striving toward National AP Scholar, so at least 7-8 (I forget exactly) APs with 4-5 scores by end of junior year. This would help toward that. 

 

I was thinking to go easier with AP Physics 1/2 if we went AP route - but I don't like what you're saying about the AP Physics 1/2 exam having a horrible passing rate. That would defeat our purpose of taking the exam. We are not concerned about AP credits. Those are just icing  on the cake, if we get those.

 

So those are my goals. I have another year to think this through - but it's one of the few ? I still have with his 4 years in mind.  Just thought I'd jump in since someone else already asked.

[daijobu]

 

 

I was thinking to go easier with AP Physics 1/2 if we went AP route - but I don't like what you're saying about the AP Physics 1/2 exam having a horrible passing rate. That would defeat our purpose of taking the exam. We are not concerned about AP credits. Those are just icing  on the cake, if we get those.

 

 

 

I think the lower scores (4-8% scoring a 5) for AP physics 1/2 tell you more about the quality of the students taking the class or the quality of the instruction and less about the difficulty of the course.  (Around 30% get a 5 on the AP physics C.)  

 

A similar student selection problem can be see in the SAT subject test score distribution for Level 1 and Level 2 math, which stronger students generally taking Level 2.  Scoring 710 on the Level 1 test puts you in the 77th percentile, while it is only 50th percentile for Level 2.  Roughly half of the students taking Level 2 are scoring above 700, while only a quarter of Level 1 students are.  

 

I wanted to compare Calculus AB (24% score a 5) and Calculus BC (48% score a 5), but that could also reflect the number of students who take AB one year, and then follow up with BC the following year.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by daijobu

[mirabillis]

Makes a lot of sense, daijobu! I think your dd is 11th grade next year, so thinking AP Physics C next year, right? You can be my guinea pig and tell me how it goes perhaps.... (but then again, your dd is in Calc now, whereas we'd be AP Calc concurrently...)

 

Regardless of the pass/fail rate of the test, I still hear mixed reviews on Physics 1/2 exam. Since it's so new, I'm a bit unsure.... I think we'll probably go the PAH AP Physics route either way, with Kernion. I like that it is video-based, so we'll have to figure out whether to go 1/2 or C. 

 

That or go back to drawing board for DO Physics (& SAT II)... Any other Physics thoughts?