Advice Needed: My 7th grade dd is REALLY struggling with Physical Science

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Somehow I deleted all the info ...

 

My dd is struggling with almost every aspect of Apologia Physical Science.  She is using the Student Notebook and making flashcards.  I have encouraged her to study, and she has studied at least 3 days before each test.  She barely squeaked by with a C on the first two tests and got an F on Module 3.

 

My dd's study skills could use improvement.  I don't think she really understands the amount of repetition required ....

 

 

 

I really think she would enjoy the Paradigm Accelerated Course, and that it would be better for her struggles with focus/attention etc. and was thinking of switching....

 

But I worry that would teach her to just give up when things are hard.  So, my plan is to go back and re-do the chapter in Apologia, re-do the study guide, and teach her better about using flashcards and really studying....

 

Any thoughts..?

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Calming Tea

[regentrude]

I don't know the course. How is it set up?

Is the text written in a way that it holds the interest of a 13 y/o?

Are the explanations clear and concise, and related to practical applications?

Is there visual clutter on the pages that is distracting? Mine hated colorful sidebars, boxes, tables, interspersed activities.... They preferred consecutive readable well written text.

What is she supposed to do with it? Just read? Write notes? Drill vocabulary (the bane of many a "science" program)? Solve problems? Design experiments?

Would she like to do more hands on learning? (Mine hated everything hands-on)

Can she talk to you about what she learned and put it into perspective? Discuss misconceptions etc? What feedback does she get?

 

ETA: just saw that you edited while I was typing.

 

I do not consider "flash cards" and "studying" a good preparation for physical science, There should be problem solving, and something to check for conceptual understanding - NOT memorization. For the physics part of physical science, I consider flash cards completely useless (there are some thing in chemistry that have to be memorized, but none in physics)

 

She needs somebody who studies with her and models what "studying" means for this subject.

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

Our WTMer's Clover Creek Physics is good but it is full for this year. Hewitt's Conceptual Physics is a nice text that is not math heavy.

 

What is she struggling with? It is easier to suggest knowing what is not working for your daughter.

 

Would your son be free for a few hours a week to tutor her, because looking at your son's interest, tutoring your daughter physical science won't be difficult for him.

[regentrude]

How are the tests structured?

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Arcadia- my son is willing to tutor, but I'm not sure he really has the time.  He does help with her math now and then, as well as being the tech support here and the trash guy :o)

 

I will think about that idea though.  Maybe he could get through to her.

 

Regentrude:

To answer your Questions:

 

The text is not cluttered.  

 

The experiments are awesome and she loves them, and so do I. They really work, and they really make you understand the concepts.  She really understands all of them well.  We discuss them and read the explanations which we love.

 

In general the explanations for the overall concepts are NOT concise, and in fact rather wordy.   I often have to read, and re-read the info, just because it is so wordy.  She is expected to read the text on her own, make flashcards and answer critical thinking questions as well as fill in charts.  I help with the critical thinking and discuss them.  On week two, she does all the experiments and studies for the test (memorize flashcards, complete Study Guide and just study in general)

 

This dd is NOT engineering or Science bound...but she IS college bound and I do want her prepared for university courses, eventually.  She will NOT take any AP or Honors Science courses in high school.  But she WILL be expected to use and study from a textbook and get through two years of college Science once she gets there. :) 

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The tests are open- answer.  There are no multiple choice, charts, A, B, C or matching.  The student must give a complete answer to about 15 questions.  7 are definitions and the rest are explanations they must give.  TO me, it's hard.

 

My son says his online APologia class gave them Multiple Choice tests and only one short essay question.  He says this test looks way harder than what he had two years ago, using their Online class.  

[regentrude]

In general the explanations for the overall concepts are NOT concise, and in fact rather wordy.   I often have to read, and re-read the info, just because it is so wordy.  She is expected to read the text on her own, make flashcards and answer critical thinking questions as well as fill in charts.  I help with the critical thinking and discuss them.  On week two, she does all the experiments and studies for the test (memorize flashcards, complete Study Guide and just study in general)

 

This dd is NOT engineering or Science bound...but she IS college bound and I do want her prepared for university courses, eventually.  She will NOT take any AP or Honors Science courses in high school.  But she WILL be expected to use and study from a textbook and get through two years of college Science once she gets there. :)

 

I am not sure whether the expectation that a 7th grader reads a text  that is so convoluted that you have to re-read to understand it independently is appropriate. She may simply need more scaffolding and explicit teaching how to read a science textbook. This is a goal to achieve by the end of high school, not something a 7th grader automatically knows how to do - especially if the text is not well written.

I would work with her on the text, analyze it together, see how to extract basic information.

 

How do the tests look? I am concerned that you mention so much memorization. What topics are you on?

 

She may not know what "just study in general" looks like! There should be specific steps. Often, students read and reread the same information and consider this studying. They repeat what they have been doing, but it is not working. Which means they need to study differently. This is something college students struggle with; a 7th grader would need this broken down into incremental steps. I am wondering whether you may simply be expect too much independence.

[regentrude]

The tests are open- answer.  There are no multiple choice, charts, A, B, C or matching.  The student must give a complete answer to about 15 questions.  7 are definitions and the rest are explanations they must give.  TO me, it's hard.

 

Can you give an example of specifics? I am trying to figure out what the issue is.

 

How does she fail the questions that require explanations? How far from the correct answer is hers? Explanations mean concepts, right? So I would want to investigate why she does not understand the concepts. 

How narrow are you grading the definitions? Does she have to regurgitate verbatim?

 

ETA: I think it NOT being mc is  a good thing.

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

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This chapter was about the Atmosphere.  So she was supposed to know the layers of the atmosphere, in order, and which were part of the heterosphere and which were part of the homosphere, which layer affects weather.  Also this chapter covered heat, temperature, etc.  molecules and how they act when heated up, etc.  the difference between heat and temperature, and understanding what both of them are.  

 

We did do a lot of discussion but there was a lot of memorizing because she was suppoosed to regurgitate exact definitions as well as understanding how everything worked together.  

[regentrude]

This chapter was about the Atmosphere.  So she was supposed to know the layers of the atmosphere, in order, and which were part of the heterosphere and which were part of the homosphere, which layer affects weather.  Also this chapter covered heat, temperature, etc.  molecules and how they act when heated up, etc.  the difference between heat and temperature, and understanding what both of them are.  

 

We did do a lot of discussion but there was a lot of memorizing because she was suppoosed to regurgitate exact definitions as well as understanding how everything worked together.  

 

I would drop the regurgitating definitions and turn the questions around: give the definition and ask what it is.

Memorizing complicated definitions verbatim is not science; it establishes vocabulary to talk about science, but does not test understanding.

 

How does she study? For a topic like this, I would have my student draw pictures of the layers and label them. I would give an unlabeled picture on the exam and have the student label and explain the layers.

 

Where did she have difficulties?

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

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good questions~

 

Thank you!

 

Question 1:

a-g were the defintion of atmosphere, barometer, homosphere, heterosphere, jet streams, heat, temperature 

 

For barometer, she said "The instrument used to measure atmospheric change" which should have been pressure.  I marked it correct but had a discussion why pressure was a super important word there.

 

For homosphere and Heterosphere she got hte definition correct except that she mixed up whether it was 50 miles or 80 KM, she put either 50KM or 80 Milles, I marked it correct.

 

For Jet Streams, she said they go east to west.  I marked it wrong....

 

For temperature and heat, she wrote the defintions, verbatim, but mixed them up.  So she wrote the def. for heat in for temp and vice versa.

 

Number two:

 

Q: If you wanted to study weather which would you study?

A;  She wrote troposphere but the answer should have been stratosphere

 

3.

Q: If you wanted to study teh Ozone layer which layer would you study?

A.  She wrote Mesosphere but should have put stratosphere

 

6.

Q; Which regions of the atmosphere are in the heterosphere?

A;  She put exospohere and troposphere but it should have been thermosphere and atmosphere 

 

The last three were semi critical thinking and she got two correct and one wrong- about the average speed of molecules in the air, whether they would increase or decrease as you travel upward 

 

THanks for helping me!

[Arcadia]

Saw your edit to your first post.

 

What is in the student notebook? I'll drop the flash cards and concentrate on doing work problems. If you look at the below link, and open any of the PDFs, you can see how it explains the concepts, gives some examples and then have some problems for the student to try. Build up her confidence by being able to do the exercise/problems first, unit/chapter tests can come later

 

http://www.millerstem.com/conceptual-physics-problem-solving-exercises.html

 

Just saw your description of the atmosphere unit before I post.

Your description of the unit reminds me of my oldest's K12 Earth Science when he was with CAVA. It was too much info even for my science loving kid. He is good at memorizing and regurgitating but it was a kill joy.

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I just think this test was so hard, very hard

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Yes she is now saying she hates Science, and I am like-

 

You love experiments

You love nature

You love Physics Girl

You love Minute Physics

You love experimenting with planting, gardening, etc.

You love using ht emicroscope

 

You do NOT hate Science! :(  Just this book LOL

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If she hates the book and the tests suck and need to be re-worked...I mean...should I make her stick with it and then just design my own tests ?

 

Or just move on?

 

This particular child has had a bit of a history of not sticking with things long term, so I am very hesitant to allow her to change curriculum....I am really trying to teach her to stick with things, whatever they are, even if they are hard or you are not a genius.

[regentrude]

good questions~

 

Thank you!

 

Question 1:

a-g were the defintion of atmosphere, barometer, homosphere, heterosphere, jet streams, heat, temperature 

 

For barometer, she said "The instrument used to measure atmospheric change" which should have been pressure.  I marked it correct but had a discussion why pressure was a super important word there.

 

For homosphere and Heterosphere she got hte definition correct except that she mixed up whether it was 50 miles or 80 KM, she put either 50KM or 80 Milles, I marked it correct.

 

For Jet Streams, she said they go east to west.  I marked it wrong....

 

For temperature and heat, she wrote the defintions, verbatim, but mixed them up.  So she wrote the def. for heat in for temp and vice versa.

 

Number two:

 

Q: If you wanted to study weather which would you study?

A;  She wrote troposphere but the answer should have been stratosphere

 

3.

Q: If you wanted to study teh Ozone layer which layer would you study?

A.  She wrote Mesosphere but should have put stratosphere

 

6.

Q; Which regions of the atmosphere are in the heterosphere?

A;  She put exospohere and troposphere but it should have been thermosphere and atmosphere 

 

The last three were semi critical thinking and she got two correct and one wrong- about the average speed of molecules in the air, whether they would increase or decrease as you travel upward 

 

THanks for helping me!

 

The definition part sounds as if it's mixup with the details. The km vs miles and the precise numbers - honestly, you look that up.

The conceptual questions seems as if she tried to memorize which layer goes with what and tried to recall.

I would have studied for this by drawing pictures, labeling the layers, putting the functions and properties in the picture - making it visual. The way she studies may not be the best for the way she learns.

[Arcadia]

It might be better to do an in depth botany course this year going by her interest. You don't want her to hate science because of a curriculum. Then pick a physical science curriculum that is more hands on and less memory heavy for 8th grade or just modify this one? Typically 7th grade is life science in California so she is not behind.

 

Example of high school botany course that your daughter can manage

http://manteno.il.mch.schoolinsites.com/?PageName=TeacherPage&Page=3&StaffID=248443&iSection=Teachers&CorrespondingID=248443

[regentrude]

If she hates the book and the tests suck and need to be re-worked...I mean...should I make her stick with it and then just design my own tests ?

 

Or just move on?

 

This particular child has had a bit of a history of not sticking with things long term, so I am very hesitant to allow her to change curriculum....I am really trying to teach her to stick with things, whatever they are, even if they are hard or you are not a genius.

 

I would stick with the subject, but modify the materials. I would be greatly saddened by a kid who is interested in science to claim she hates science because the text and tests turn her off.

I would completely switch gear and get living books from the library that cover these topics. Ask her to read, and instead of making her cram definitions for a test, make her explore a topic and give an oral presentation with self designed visuals. She will be more interested, engage on a deeper level, have no fear of getting answers wrong, and it will be a more holistic way of learning.

Most importantly, it may get her interested and excited again.

 

There is a reason why I am not using textbooks in the middle grades. I have seen nothing that would be conducive to keeping the interest and excitement awake.

[Arcadia]

This particular child has had a bit of a history of not sticking with things long term, so I am very hesitant to allow her to change curriculum....I am really trying to teach her to stick with things, whatever they are, even if they are hard or you are not a genius.

When my public schools used a textbook I didn't like, I went to get other textbooks from the bookstore and study off those for tests and exams. I won't worry about changing curriculum.

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OK, she loves the idea of getting library books (library is her favorite place in the world) and making oral presentations with visuals, either on poster board or on a computer slide show.  Then, we could still do the experiments in the WILE book since we both love those.  SO I will go topic by topic through the WIle book and use that as a springboard to look for library books.

 

Thanks a lot!!!

[Guest]

I'd definitely have her give presentations or even write essays explaining the overarching concepts. Absolutely. This sounds like a case of information via firehose and not everyone assimilates well that way. Ditch the tests and pick a report format she can actually like and understand :)

[regentrude]

OK, she loves the idea of getting library books (library is her favorite place in the world) and making oral presentations with visuals, either on poster board or on a computer slide show.  Then, we could still do the experiments in the WILE book since we both love those.  SO I will go topic by topic through the WIle book and use that as a springboard to look for library books.

 

Thanks a lot!!!

 

My kids also wrote reports on their topics and made posters. Find a way for her to demonstrate what she has learned - tests are only ONE way of doing that, and not the best.

[Guest]

My kids also wrote reports on their topics and made posters. Find a way for her to demonstrate what she has learned - tests are only ONE way of doing that, and not the best.

Exactly - and unlike standard tests, with project based reporting the children are enhancing and deepening their assimilation of the materials in the output, instead of just trying to recite the facts.

[Janeway]

My children hated all the Apologia books we had, except the elementary level.

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You guys have been extremely helpful. My daughter loves doing presentations and I know she will do a really creative job.  And, we can use the experiments we like from the APologia book, since they're fun and we have the supplies.

 

Thank you so much.

[Tenaj]

Just in case you didn't know this . . Apologia has a file of alternative tests that are (or used to be available).  You have to email them and ask them for the file.  They are designed just in case a child does poorly on the first attempt at a test.  I've found that the alternate tests were much more reasonable in what they asked.  A lot of the questions were multiple choice or matching (in the case of vocabulary) which made it a better fit for some of my kids.  I know they were available as recently as three years ago but don't know if they still are . . it might be worth a check.

 

Also, when I've had kids having troubles I've used different approaches for the original Apologia tests.  Sometimes I give the tests as open book exams.  Other times I let them have a large post-it note as a "cheat" sheet.  Usually I give the tests as suggested and then for every problem they miss, if they correct it with an explanation of why that answer is correct then they get .5 credit back.  I also usually make up the vocabulary section of the test as a matching section, rather than the original design of "write the definitions".  

[MerryAtHope]

A few thoughts...

 

One, the tests for Apologia are definitely a step up, and if she hasn't done them before (or even if she has but is still struggling this year), use the tests as a way of teaching her how to study, rather than strictly as tests. For example:

 

On questions that she gets wrong, see if she can answer them orally for you. If not, let her use her study guide and the book to correct her test and hand it back in. Let her earn credit for those questions that way, and use it as a learning experience.

 

Also, model what you actually DO when you have her study. I always schedule 1-2 days after my kids finish the study guide for actual studying. What do you want her to do, and how does she learn best? Experiment with methods such as re-reading and highlighting notes, rewriting things in her own words, writing out flashcards and quizzing herself, and so on. Or, she may study better with a study partner who will do flashcards with her. Try a different method with each test to let her get a feel for them and help her learn how she thinks and what helps her the most. I have one who likes to read and memorize and one who really benefits from extra writing. 

 

7th grade seems early for Physical Science though. Apologia recommends it for 8th and even says it can be used for 9th grade (which I did for one of mine. The other never did Physical--I knew she wouldn't like it in junior high, and she was ready for biology in 9th.) So, I don't know if you'll want to consider something else for this year. I do think that whenever you start Apologia, the tests are a learning curve, and you'll want to work with your student until she's able to be successful. I figure it's more important to help a student learn the material and learn how to study at this point, and Apologia has been a good vehicle for providing that experience/learning. 

[LindaOz]

Has she done Apologia General Science?

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No, she has not.

 

Guess what guys..

 

we went through all the options you've posed here (including using General Science), doing presentations, etc. 

 

And....she chose ACE PACE 7th grade...she looked and looked and looked at the samples.  She really likes the Bite Sized info, thin manageable worktexts and of course the comics...I explained about the archaic feminine qualities portrayed and she said she can overlook that.  LOL...

 

I think this may actually work well, even though it doesn't involve creativity, she will feel a sense of confidence...

[Peaceful Isle]

I'm thinking of having my dd take the physical science course from Derek Owens.

 

Maybe your dd might like a change in pace, and could do an online course?

[Lori D.]

JMO, and I don't know your student well, BUT, from what you describe in your original post, that does not sound like a study skill problem. It sounds like a poor match up for teaching style of the program with student learning style.

 

Yes she is now saying she hates Science, and I am like-

 

You love experiments

You love nature

You love Physics Girl

You love Minute Physics

You love experimenting with planting, gardening, etc.

You love using ht emicroscope

 

You do NOT hate Science! :(  Just this book LOL

 

This also sounds like you clearly know your DD's learning style, and you have pinpointed the problem -- the book is not a good match for her. 

 

And that's okay! Best to figure that out NOW, early in your move towards more formal science. We had a similar situation -- throughout grades 1-8, our DSs loved science. We had done tons of living books, hands-on, science shows, experimentation, etc. Apologia Biology was our first exposure to a more formal science and it really killed the love of science here, as it was a bad match for teaching style / learning style. I made us gut it out, but we were all SO much happier switching over to Conceptual Chemistry and Conceptual Physics. I deeply regret making us do Apologia Biology for an entire year, as it took awhile after that for enjoyment of Science to return.

 

So I'd say yes, just as you suggested in your posts in this thread, it doesn't sound like Apologia is a good fit for your DD, and I'd also say -- yes, try another type of Physical Science program.

 

The other thing I see here is that a majority of things you listed above indicate that DD's biggest interest in Science may be life science topics -- nature, planting, gardening, using the microscope... So that may suggest it is even more important to find a Physical Science program that is a good fit for her learning style.

 

Physics Girl and Minute Physics which you mention that she likes are entertaining video bites of physics topics with a heavy amount of visuals, demonstration, and hands-on -- so your original idea of switching to ACE DVD could be a great fit for her -- also the Alpha-Omega Switched on Schoolhouse (SOS) CD-Rom based program with video tutorials and visual bites of learning. The SOS Physical Science (called "Integrated Physics and Chemistry") is 9th grade, however, so don't know if DD would be up for that -- or, that might allow you to slow down and pick-and-choose through the program...

 

Some other programs you might look into:

- year 1 of Rainbow Science -- see scope & sequence; see sample lessons; see Cathy Duffy review -- lots of hands-on, mostly self-directed.

- Holt Science & Technology: Physical Science -- see Cathy Duffy review; online textbook extensions -- very visual textbook, plenty of hands-on, CD-rom with chapter resource supports

- Noeo Science -- see Cathy Duffy review -- for middle school grades there is Physics 3 and Chemistry 3; living book based with science kits

 

Again, you're still early enough in the school year that it's not much of a problem to switch programs now. BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Lori D.