Pre-Calc/AP Calc Placement Questions

[cuckoomamma]

You all were very helpful in the past and I'm hoping you can set us on the right path and help with our choice for this year.

 

My dd had taken Thinkwell Algebra, Geometry and then enrolled in their Pre-Calc class last year.  Their sequencing skips over their "Algebra 2" class and recommends their Pre-Calc as a combination of Algebra 2, Trig and ? (maybe that's all).  She ran into some material which you all pointed out was in the Algebra 2 syllabus and got spooked because it wasn't being taught but built upon for those who had already taken it in Algebra 2.  Thinkwell was very accomodating and gave her access to the Algebra 2 class, as well, as a reference.  However, it was her first year of APs, I work and couldn't be very involved in figuring out the issues that were causing her difficulty and couldn't offer an easy solution, so dd just took the Algebra 2 course rather than trying to work through the Pre-Calc. 

 

We just enrolled dd in DO Pre-Calc, as I want her to have some support rather than be in this completely alone this year.  I also want to be sure that she's covered everything she'll need to do well in AP Calc.  However, she's looked through the syllabus and the homework sheets and says that she already has covered the bulk of it, that there's very little that she hasn't covered.  I know that DO Pre-Calc and AP Calc gets very good recommendations.  Not having enough of a math background, I'm unsure if it's possible that dd really has covered so much of the class already.  Is there a depth that he'll be covering that she's not picking up on?  If she's correct, she would likely be finished with the DO Pre-Calc very quickly.  The glitch is that she would then be behind in the timing for the AP Calc year.  

 

So, my first question - Is it possible that she's really covered the bulk of the DO Pre-Calc with Thinkwell's Algebra 2?

 

Second question - Years ago we had tried using the Aops Algebra text and we both disliked their discovery method.  We both want to be taught the basics initially and then prefer to expand upon it ourselves afterwards.  What could she do after she finishes the DO Pre-Calc for the rest of the year?  I am beyond my depth and would need someone to help her.  What other online courses are options?

 

Third:  How difficult is AP Calc?  Is it something that is very overwhelming?  Could she begin the school year with the rest of the class and supplement what she hasn't covered in Pre-Calc at the same time?  Or, would she need that knowledge at the beginning of the school year.  I can have her give me a list of what she hasn't covered. 

 

She is a very strong student but is limited by my ability to navigate the sequencing in math.  I know that many of you are extremely knowledgeable and need your guidance.

 

Thank you!!

Edited July 20, 2016 by cuckoomamma

[Lilaclady]

I think you shold contact Derek. From what I have heard, he is very approachable. Maybe she can do a quick over view of the precalc while simultaneously working on the AP calc. If she starts in the summer, she might just need a few weeks to work over the precalc before starting in September with Ap calc.

[Mike in SA]

I find skipping precalculus to be extremely risky. Just as you don't want to have to think about how to perform basic arithmetical manipulations while doing algebra, you also don't want to spend energy on algebra or trigonometry while doing calculus.

 

Trigonometric substitutions, in particular, can be problematic in calculus without sufficient preparation. Coverage of trig in algebra 2 is unlikely to reach the depth of a proper trig or precalculus course.

 

The fact that your daughter needed to refer to algebra 2 content while doing precalculus should tell you that the two are not comparable in depth. DO generally covers topics very thoroughly, so I would anticipate the difference being even more pronounced, even if topics appear to be similar.

 

I might consider skipping precalculus after AOPS intermediate algebra with an additional dedicated trig course.

[kiana]

I think you shold contact Derek. From what I have heard, he is very approachable. Maybe she can do a quick over view of the precalc while simultaneously working on the AP calc. If she starts in the summer, she might just need a few weeks to work over the precalc before starting in September with Ap calc.

 

I agree with contacting him.

 

I think starting precalculus and seeing how much she gets through is a great idea. I see it's billed on a monthly basis so you're not paying $400 or so for a class that wouldn't take her that long. If she takes longer than a few months, clearly she needed it -- if she whizzes through it in a month because she really did learn it all, you're not out that much and it'll be worth it for the peace of mind.

 

If she finishes it midyear and you don't want to do calculus starting midyear in case she's out of sync for the AP test, you could look for a one-semester statistics class (good life skill) and do precalculus review once a week. 

 

But I wouldn't just skip it. The number one reason that students who do the homework don't do well in calculus is not lack of comprehension of the calculus, but lack of automaticity in high school math. If you have to stop and think about the slope of a line, you'll have a hard time with tangent lines. If you can't subtract fractions automatically, a problem that requires 2/3 - 1 is going to mess with you (you might laugh, but you wouldn't believe how many students I've seen write '1/3' as the answer). 

[Corraleno]

So, my first question - Is it possible that she's really covered the bulk of the DO Pre-Calc with Thinkwell's Algebra 2?

 

 

The course Thinkwell sells as "Algebra 2" for homeschoolers includes all the material from the College Algebra course they sell to college students, including two chapters of trig (trigonometric functions and identities). So your DD is likely correct that she has already covered the algebra portion of DO's Precalculus class, as well as some (but not all) of the trig.

 

One option might be to do the remaining chapters in Thinkwell's Trig course (it looks like she has already covered the first 3 chapters, and would just need to do Chapters 4-7), beginning now, and then finish it up while starting AP Calc in the fall. Alternatively, you could buy an inexpensive trig text and have her work through the portions she hasn't had yet, either at home or with a tutor.  There is likely to be some review at the beginning of the calc class, so overlapping the end of trig and the beginning of calc should not be a problem.

[MarkT]

I borrowed a copy of the Thinkwell Precalc book which maps to the course.  Sometimes the "Algebraic" content is less in depth than other Precalc books I own. 

[Julie of KY]

I agree with not skipping precalc, but it does sound like she might be able to breeze through a lot of the review quickly and then just focus on certain areas. I would contact Derek Owens as he has a reputation for being easy to work with in similar situations. He can assess what she needs to cover and then focus on those parts. Once you know where you stand with how much precalc has left to be covered, you'll be able to make a more informed decision about when to start calculus.