9 year old with math challenges

[ms. pacman]

Hi! My daughter who will be 10 in August has always had a hard time with math. This year we did CLE grade 2 and part of Grade 3 math, and I was very happy with the improvements she made. However she is feeling very discouraged and hates that she is not on grade level. I'm thinking of switching gears next year and trying a math program that uses lots of manipulatives, which she would love. I am looking for suggestions for a math program that is not online or DVD, uses plenty of manipulatives, and will help her really understand numbers. Bonus points if it doesn't have obvious grade levels so she doesn't have to feel behind. I've looked at Shiller math and am interested in that. Any others?

[OneStepAtATime]

Right Start or Math U See or ...shoot, there is another one and it starts with a C.  I can't remember the name.  I'll have to get back to you.

 

As for grade levels, I stopped calling the numbers grade levels on the material we use.  I call them levels.  As in you start with level 1 (apprenticeship) and move up.  The reading program they use is levels, not grade levels, so the kids are used to the concept now.

 

I would also check to make sure she has good subitization skills.  Have you looked into dyscalculia?  You might look at the Ronit Bird books, too.

 

Are there any other areas she has struggles?  

 

Also, does it seem to be more of a struggle with concepts or remembering the algorithms?  Or...?

 

How solid is she on place value?

[ms. pacman]

Right Start or Math U See or ...shoot, there is another one and it starts with a C.  I can't remember the name.  I'll have to get back to you.

 

I looked into MUS, but it looks like the lessons are on DVD. She gets eyestrain from looking at a screen for too long, and prefers hard copies of books. I'll look into Right Start!

 

As for grade levels, I stopped calling the numbers grade levels on the material we use.  I call them levels.  As in you start with level 1 (apprenticeship) and move up.  The reading program they use is levels, not grade levels, so the kids are used to the concept now.

 

I have tried to make it about levels too, but the kids aren't buying it :)

 

I would also check to make sure she has good subitization skills.  Have you looked into dyscalculia?  You might look at the Ronit Bird books, too.

 

She is good knowing the number that has been rolled on dice without counting the dots. I have researched dyscalculia and would like to find out if that's what her deal is. She has had a very hard time memorizing her addition and subtraction facts. It has taken her a long time to get somewhat proficient at her facts, as she said she has to count in her head still. She doesn't just see a fact and know the answer. I guess she has a hard time generalizing?

 

Are there any other areas she has struggles?  

 

Yes, as a matter of fact she struggles in other areas too. She gets overwhelmed with reading, and can't read without vocalizing the words aloud. She gets overwhelmed by pages of text and small print. She can't stand anything to do with writing in any of her lessons. She says she can write stories and things when it's what she wants to write, but when it's a part of her school work she is extremely resistant.  She can follow simple instructions in her lessons, but if it's complicated at all, she doesn't know what to do. 

 

Also, does it seem to be more of a struggle with concepts or remembering the algorithms?  Or...?

 

It's everything. She has a really hard time knowing what needs to be done with story problems, and also has a very hard time memorizing facts. They just don't stick.

 

How solid is she on place value?

 

She understands that there is a ones place, tens place, and hundreds place, but I don't think she really gets what that means as a concept. She can do simple borrowing and carrying, but doesn't really understand why it works that way.

 

Thanks for taking the time to help. She is just a sweetheart, and is such a smart, empathetic child. I really want to help her with academics!

 

[PeterPan]

Are you open to doing evals to get diagnosed what is going on? 

[ms. pacman]

Yes, definitely. We are moving out of state at the end of the month, and after we're settled I will begin to look for places that do evaluations. 

[PeterPan]

You could even look now, get on a waiting list, and be a month closer when you move!  

 

I really think you're going to avoid some curriculum mistakes by getting evals.  I can think of at least 3 totally different explanations for what you described, and all of them would involve different approaches.  So yes, time for evals.

[ms. pacman]

Thank you, Oh Elizabeth. I appreciate that advice. What kind of evaluation do you think I should look for? I have some experience with evals for my older daughter, but not sure of where I'd look for an eval for a learning disability. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Probably I would start with a neuropsychologist. I agree, there is usually a long wait time to get in so researching now makes sense. See if you can find one where you will be moving to that has a solid reputation and get in the wait list.

[ms. pacman]

Thanks for the tip! I'm hoping I can find someone in Maine. I'm in full-on research mode right now.

[PeterPan]

I think a neuropsych or any psych who has a good reputation for learning disabilities can sort it out for you.  They'll run achievement, IQ, maybe some other things, and read the tea leaves.  They'll usually also run some screenings for ADHD, APD, etc.  

[ms. pacman]

Ok, great. Thanks!

[geodob]

You wrote that: "She gets overwhelmed with reading, and can't read without vocalizing the words aloud."

As you read this, you can probably hear the words in your mind, as you read this.

But perhaps you could consider what it would be like?

If as you read this, you can't imagine the sound of the words?

So that to cope with this?  The only solution, is to 'read out loud'.

 

This ability to imagine the sound of words, is termed a 'self-talk'.

Which we use to talk something through in our mind.

When a 10 year old, can only read, by reading out loud?

It is a strong indication, that they haven't developed this 'self-talk' ability.

 

But we also use 'self-talk', for doing mental math.  Where we talk through the calculation in our mind.

For example, you might try doing a simple math calculation and observe how you mentally talk through the calculation?

57+26= ?

 

I'm quite sure, that you used 'self-talk' to arrive at the answer?

In which case, you might consider how you would work out the answer.  If you couldn't talk it through in your mind?

 

Also in terms of writing?   We use 'self-talk' to form and rehearse sentences as we write them.

But if can't use self-talk, then we can't form sentences in our mind.

 

So that perhaps you could ask your daughter, about her ability to imagine the sound of words as she is reading?

[ms. pacman]

WOW! This is very insightful! I have asked her if she can picture numbers in her mind and she says no. You just reminded me of something else: she has a hard time spelling words out loud, because she doesn't "see" them in her mind. She needs to write them down to figure out how to spell them. 

 

I'm going to ask her if she can imagine the sounds of words while reading. Thanks for the suggestion!

[PeterPan]

Lack of visualization can be caused by developmental vision problems.  You would go to a developmental optometrist, which you find through COVD, for that.  My dd had vision problems *and* ADHD in her mix, so I'm not trying to say just vision explains it.  But yes, a vision exam by a developmental optometrist would be a good thing.  Usually they have two, a regular exam (the annual, one hour thing) and then a longer, more expensive multi-hour to dig in on all the developmental stuff.  I usually suggest people *start* with that regular exam and ask the doc to screen. That way they know if the longer exam is even warranted.  And a few places do it all in one session.  

 

Anyways, that's a direction to look.  I think it's ALWAYS good to get the eyes screened when you're having school problems, because it's so common for them to be part of the mix.  And usually that regular exam is under $100 and covered by insurance, making it an easy thing to recommend, compared to the psych eval that is going to be $2000+ often.   :)

Edited July 14, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tiramisu]

One of my DD's who had VT didn't visualize with stories. So in our experience, too, developmental vision problems can lead to problems with visualization. Not sure if she visualizes with math.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Tiramisu

[AggieMama]

If you are concerned about the cost of evals, check with your local school district and they should be able to hook you up with an evil.

[Kat w]

I know it sounds crazy to some, my boys have these issues too.

Shockingly enough, I thought I'd give Singapore math a whirl. Oh my. The leaps we made. Found Sooo many holes and they learned to visualize the numbers, "got" number sense , the list goes on and on.

They still can't remember math facts but we work everyday on them. I let them use a cheat sheet for math facts so they can move into more complex problems.

They break down word problems with bar models or graphs . it helps them visualize and figure out the word problems . they could no so word problems before Singapore.

 

Every child is different, it won't hurt to try tho. Esp since you will be moving and will have some gap time to try it.

Standards edition OS what we use

I DO NOT recommend the math in focus version of Singapore.

The standards Ed. Is very straight forward and the kids love the text .

[geodob]

A better test of her visualization abilities?  Would be to ask her to picture something in her mind, that she is familiar with?  Then to describe it.

 

[ms. pacman]

Lack of visualization can be caused by developmental vision problems.  You would go to a developmental optometrist, which you find through COVD, for that.  My dd had vision problems *and* ADHD in her mix, so I'm not trying to say just vision explains it.  But yes, a vision exam by a developmental optometrist would be a good thing.  Usually they have two, a regular exam (the annual, one hour thing) and then a longer, more expensive multi-hour to dig in on all the developmental stuff.  I usually suggest people *start* with that regular exam and ask the doc to screen. That way they know if the longer exam is even warranted.  And a few places do it all in one session.  

 

Anyways, that's a direction to look.  I think it's ALWAYS good to get the eyes screened when you're having school problems, because it's so common for them to be part of the mix.  And usually that regular exam is under $100 and covered by insurance, making it an easy thing to recommend, compared to the psych eval that is going to be $2000+ often.   :)

 

See, I never even thought of getting her vision checked with an optometrist. She's never had a problem at her annual vision screenings at the pediatrician so it never occurred to me! I didn't even know there was such a thing as a developmental optometrist! And being covered by insurance would definitely be a plus.

 

One of my DD's who had VT didn't visualize with stories. So in our experience, too, developmental vision problems can lead to problems with visualization. Not sure if she visualizes with math.

 

I think visualization is definitely an issue with her for both math and reading. Did you find VT helpful?

 

 

If you are concerned about the cost of evals, check with your local school district and they should be able to hook you up with an evil.

 

Yes, I found the school in my current town very helpful with my oldest daughter even though she is a tough case, and I'm hoping the new one will be just as open to homeschoolers using their services. 

 

I know it sounds crazy to some, my boys have these issues too.

Shockingly enough, I thought I'd give Singapore math a whirl. Oh my. The leaps we made. Found Sooo many holes and they learned to visualize the numbers, "got" number sense , the list goes on and on.

They still can't remember math facts but we work everyday on them. I let them use a cheat sheet for math facts so they can move into more complex problems.

They break down word problems with bar models or graphs . it helps them visualize and figure out the word problems . they could no so word problems before Singapore.

 

Every child is different, it won't hurt to try tho. Esp since you will be moving and will have some gap time to try it.

Standards edition OS what we use

I DO NOT recommend the math in focus version of Singapore.

The standards Ed. Is very straight forward and the kids love the text .

 

Thanks for the suggestion! I'm going to see if I can find some samples to look at online. That is very encouraging! I'm glad you found a good math program for your boys :)

 

A better test of her visualization abilities?  Would be to ask her to picture something in her mind, that she is familiar with?  Then to describe it.

 

I will do this right after she's done playing with Legos :)

[Tiramisu]

I think visualization is definitely an issue with her for both math and reading. Did you find VT helpful?

:)

I never tested visualization since VT, but VT helped overall with reading comprehension and math accuracy.

[PeterPan]

Verbalizing and Visualizing (Lindamood Bell) will help you work on visualizing specifically, but it's important to get the vision checked and figure out *why* it's not happening.  I wouldn't anticipate it as a yes/no thing either, as it can be a continuum.  You could have very *poor* visualization and be doing it with difficulty thus avoiding it.  

 

Kids who are ADHD and in the alphabet soup (dyslexia, ASD, etc.) will often be naturally VSL in bent, so you can get the odd situation of a dc whose brain wants to process visually but where it's not easy because of a glitch.  You fix the vision (VT) and then the VSL strengths start coming out.  That's what happened with my dd.  

 

Yes, the COVD doc will be able to test and screen things more thoroughly than the ped office screening.  Let us know how it goes!  For some people it's a significant part of what's going on and unlocks things to get the dc moving forward.  :)

Edited July 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[ms. pacman]

Verbalizing and Visualizing (Lindamood Bell) will help you work on visualizing specifically, but it's important to get the vision checked and figure out *why* it's not happening.  I wouldn't anticipate it as a yes/no thing either, as it can be a continuum.  You could have very *poor* visualization and be doing it with difficulty thus avoiding it.  

 

Kids who are ADHD and in the alphabet soup (dyslexia, ASD, etc.) will often be naturally VSL in bent, so you can get the odd situation of a dc whose brain wants to process visually but where it's not easy because of a glitch.  You fix the vision (VT) and then the VSL strengths start coming out.  That's what happened with my dd.  

 

Yes, the COVD doc will be able to test and screen things more thoroughly than the ped office screening.  Let us know how it goes!  For some people it's a significant part of what's going on and unlocks things to get the dc moving forward.   :)

 

Well I sincerely appreciate all this information. The whole vision aspect never even occurred to me. I guess I will have my work cut out for me in the new town- my 12 year old daughter has always had issues of all sorts and is also very resistant to any kind of evaluation. My 7 year old son has extreme sensory issues regarding food and clothing, and my 5 year old hums non. stop. which is a bad combination when the other kids are very easily distracted.

 

I just did a search for a COVD dr and it looks like there are a couple in Portland ME that I will contact.

[OneStepAtATime]

Well I sincerely appreciate all this information. The whole vision aspect never even occurred to me. I guess I will have my work cut out for me in the new town- my 12 year old daughter has always had issues of all sorts and is also very resistant to any kind of evaluation. My 7 year old son has extreme sensory issues regarding food and clothing, and my 5 year old hums non. stop. which is a bad combination when the other kids are very easily distracted.

 

I just did a search for a COVD dr and it looks like there are a couple in Portland ME that I will contact.

We just had DS evaluated through a COVD this year.  He has always had perfect visual acuity, in fact more than perfect.  However, he has significant developmental vision issues.  He passed every normal vision screening with flying colors because they were only testing visual acuity.  It wasn't until I asked for a developmental vision screening a couple of years ago (thanks to posts on WTM LC forum) that we finally found part of his issue with coordination/reading/math, etc.  Unfortunately the local eye doctor we went to (the only one within hours of us that even does developmental vision screenings) was not a COVD and was not really trained in VT and the program he was using he used pretty poorly.  It helped but not as much as I think it would have with a qualified doctor and the gains were short lived with absolutely no follow up from the doctor.

 

We finally found a highly qualified COVD that had moved recently into a city 4 hours from us.  The evaluations we did this year were like night and day.  Completely different.  The eval this year was so detailed, and so thorough and there were three different developmental optometrists running the tests.  Lots of data and I could SEE what was happening.  The primary eye doctor then spent several hours carefully going over the results for both my son and myself (I got a screening too).  It was an amazing experience and I wish with all my heart that we had both had access to this type and depth of vision evaluation years and years ago.

 

DS will start VT in a few weeks.  I am very hopeful that it will help him.  I was incredibly impressed with the evaluations and the feedback, as well as the posts on this board regarding successful VT for other kids with similar issues.

[Kat w]

Onestep good comment. You said that well.

 

Was similar here. I'm sure his private therapists when he was younger mentioned it but mom was on overload and brain deflecting lol.

 

It wasn't until this board that I realized the difference and could begin to process in my own brain about it.

Sometimes there just seems to be so much.

 

My DS is going to go too. I put that at the end of the list lol.

From reading here I see more now the need and benefits from it.

 

Now his reg./daily vision is not so hot even tho the vision for sight came back fine a couple years ago . ( I know couple years makes a big difference)

 

I wish my brain could have taken in the VT stuff on this board earlier. I'm sure it would have helped him more with reading and beyond.

 

Onestep, glad you got your new specs too :)

I can't see diddly squat lol.

I was the kid in elementary school with the glasses as thick as coke bottles and bright red hair haha.

(Kids are mean lol)

[OneStepAtATime]

Onestep good comment. You said that well.

 

Was similar here. I'm sure his private therapists when he was younger mentioned it but mom was on overload and brain deflecting lol.

 

It wasn't until this board that I realized the difference and could begin to process in my own brain about it.

Sometimes there just seems to be so much.

 

My DS is going to go too. I put that at the end of the list lol.

From reading here I see more now the need and benefits from it.

 

Now his reg./daily vision is not so hot even tho the vision for sight came back fine a couple years ago . ( I know couple years makes a big difference)

 

I wish my brain could have taken in the VT stuff on this board earlier. I'm sure it would have helped him more with reading and beyond.

 

Onestep, glad you got your new specs too :)

I can't see diddly squat lol.

I was the kid in elementary school with the glasses as thick as coke bottles and bright red hair haha.

(Kids are mean lol)

Yeah, kids can definitely be mean.  Kids frequently made fun of my accent.  We moved around a lot and I picked up local accents everywhere we went.  It just took a bit for it to settle so in the meantime people made fun of me. If we were north I had a southern accent.  If we were south I had a northern accent.  If we were on the West coast I had an East coast accent.  And so on...  I remember being mortified one time when we were living in Alabama.  Just moved there from Nebraska.  A parent had asked me a question and could not understand my response.  She had to ask another kid for a translation.  I am very articulate and talked early but adopting regional accents mucked up my ability to communicate for my elementary years.  :)

 

(And yeah I am soooo glad to have my new glasses.  I still have ghosting but I am seeing better than I have in probably 5 or 6 years.  While I have been paying bills tonight I have been periodically looking over at the paper towel roll.  There are all these really pretty swirl designs.  I couldn't see those before.  It makes me happy. I'm a cheap date, LOL).

[Kat w]

Hahahab awww. Cheap date made me laugh out loud. :)

 

Man you got to see alot of the country huh? Thats awesome. There's so much of the u.s. I wanna see.

 

That had to be frustrating adapting to the different regions (accents, culture)

My hubby's a navy brat. Hated moving.

[ms. pacman]

Hello! I just wanted to report back and thank everyone SO MUCH for giving me encouragement and advice regarding my daughter. Her new pediatrician referred her for psycho-educational testing, which miraculously was covered by insurance! A psychologist who specializes in LDs performed the testing. Here is the diagnosis part:

 

Other Specified Neurodevelopmental Disorder (traits of Nonverbal Learning Disorder)

Specific Learning Disorder with impairment in written expression, impacting clarity and organization of written expression

Specific Learning Disorder with impairment in mathematics, impacting accurate and fluent calculation

Adjustment Disorder with Mixed Anxiety and Depressed Mood

 

I'm so glad to have this info. My 12 yr old is due for the same testing in January.

[PeterPan]

That's a lot to get back!  Is the psych referring you for some counseling or meds? How is your math going? Definitely good that you got the evals!!

[ms. pacman]

She did recommend counseling. We've been using Right Start math and it has been wonderful! She also said we might want to get an OT eval because her visual-motor skills were at the level of a 7.5 yr old.