ketogenic diet and ketosis

[IfIOnly]

Would anyone share tips on how to navigate this diet? Any pitfalls to avoid? I'm feeling much better today, day two of high fat, adequate protein, and low carb, than yesterday with the transition to burning fat rather than carbs for fuel. I'm not sure how I'll feel later in the day, but for now, I'm feeling so much better with the transitional "carb flu".I did this diet many years ago and felt and looked great (lost weight, skin,energy, mood).  I'm only doing this strict of a diet until a lose weight and then hope to add in some healthy carbs in moderation (high fat, mod carb, adequate protein) becasue I'm not convinced that such a low carb diet is good long term and also because whole grains especially are power packed with certain nutrients that are hard to get on the ketogenic diet, IMO. I have a couple of questions if anyone has some experience:

 

1. How much fat is too much? Yesterday I had about 80 grams (I think that's what MFP measures in) over double what MFP recommends. Ha! I've already had over 10 grams of fat this morning just in my coffee (a quarter cup of full fat canned coconut milk). The good thing is I haven't experienced any hunger at all in between meals. Just right before as normal. In fact, I've felt full inbetween meals pretty much, which is saying something as I only ate salads and soup for my meals yesterday. I'm thinking for me, I might need to cut back a wee bit because it feels like a bit to much. I think my "fat sensors" are telling me to back off a bit. Good idea, bad idea? Is there a recommended or minimum of fat to consume a day? I might need to eat smaller meals and snack between meals because I was just too full to snack with the amount of fat I ate yesterday.

 

2. How low is too low of carbs? Yesterday I had 55 carbs total in the form of mostly veggies. Is that too low? Too high? I'm not sure what the goal is.

 

3. Salt intake: is there a recommended amount. I usually eat lots of salt, but yesterday I only got about 1000 out of MFP;s 2300 recommended amount, which surprised me. It's good I was tracking because I would not have guessed it was that low. I usually do lots of salt, but salting salads to taste just doesn't work like mashed potatoes. :) I think it would be good for me to have a goal, so I can monitor if I'm getting enough. From what was shared with me here yesterday, salt is important to the ketogenic diet. Should I try to meet MFP's recs or is there a better amount to try and get each day?

 

Thank you so much!!

 

 

[zoobie]

Google for a keto calculator. 55 g of carbs would be too high for me starting out. I found the forums at lowcarbfriends helpful.

[JFSinIL]

I tried this diet three times - for me, I could never have more than a wee amount of carbs per day (5 - 10 max) or I'd be out of ketosis. :-(    And as soon as I went off the diet, all the weight came right back no matter how I dieted.  I found strength training far more effective at helping me look and feel great and I miss it (unrepairable abdominal hernia post-car crash - am not allowed to lift anything of 10 pounds nor strain.)

 

If you can manage 55 carbs and not go out of ketosis, yeah, you may be able to make this diet work for you better than I could. 

[IfIOnly]

Google for a keto calculator. 55 g of carbs would be too high for me starting out. I found the forums at lowcarbfriends helpful.

 

Thank you! I'll check those out.

 

Looking at my carb history yesterday, 35 out of the 55 carbs were a tomato I ate in my salad yesterday! I made a soup in my blender with half and avocado, a tomato, cilantro, lime, broth, and chicken. I didn't realize tomatoes were higher in carbs, at least as far as ketosis is concerned. I apparently need to do a bit more reading. Ha!

[kiana]

Thank you! I'll check those out.

 

Looking at my carb history yesterday, 35 out of the 55 carbs were a tomato I ate in my salad yesterday! I made a soup in my blender with half and avocado, a tomato, cilantro, lime, broth, and chicken. I didn't realize tomatoes were higher in carbs, at least as far as ketosis is concerned. I apparently need to do a bit more reading. Ha!

 

Are you sure that's correct?An ounce of raw tomato is about 1g carbohydrates (checked usda and canadian database just for thoroughness) so that would be more than a 2 pound tomato. Is it possible that whatever entry you're using accidentally entered the calories where the carbohydrates should be? MFP has some very suspect entries. Look for the USDA ones. 

 

I'd like to throw a plug in here for cronometer as a tracking tool -- it doesn't have the barcode scanner etc like myfitnesspal but if you make your own food the databases are far more accurate. There's a paid version but the free version is incredibly functional. 

Edited July 10, 2016 by kiana

[IfIOnly]

I tried this diet three times - for me, I could never have more than a wee amount of carbs per day (5 - 10 max) or I'd be out of ketosis. :-( And as soon as I went off the diet, all the weight came right back no matter how I dieted. I found strength training far more effective at helping me look and feel great and I miss it (unrepairable abdominal hernia post-car crash - am not allowed to lift anything of 10 pounds nor strain.)

 

If you can manage 55 carbs and not go out of ketosis, yeah, you may be able to make this diet work for you better than I could.

I'm so sorry about your accident, and not being able to excercise. :(

 

Of I'm not able to keep the weight off eating this wat, then so be it. I just feel so much better though, so I can feel like crap and be overweight or feel good and he overweight, ya know?

[Ali in OR]

My experience with the ketogenic diet is medical--my seizure kid was on it for 3 years from age 3 to 6 for seizure control. It's not a healthy diet--she was monitored by a dietician and her neurologist and had regular bloodwork. It was worth the cost for improved seizure control for awhile, but there are inherit problems like constipation, not enough calcium, high triglycerides. I know it's popular among some for weight loss, but you should be aware of the downsides.

 

Managing the diet is a math problem. The amount of fat/protein/carbs is a ratio. My daughter's dietician set the ratio (it changed a few times) and the number of calories she would need. I'm looking at her old binder and a meal for a 3.5:1 ratio. That means that you add the amount of grams of protein and carbs together, multiply it by 3.5, and that's how many grams of fat you need for that meal. Every meal has to be balanced or you could fall out of ketosis. You choose the ratio by what your body needs to stay in ketosis, so they started my dd out strict (a higher ratio) and then found that a lower ratio could still keep her in ketosis and was a little more appetizing.

 

I think my dd's calorie count was somewhere around 1000 calories per day divided evenly into 3 meals. Her dietician wanted her to have 5 gm of protein per meal for her body's needs for cell growth. She got 3.7 gm carbs per meal. That adds up to 8.7, multiply that by 3.5 and she needed to consume 31 grams of fat for that meal. It really is a lot of fat, usually provided by cream. The carbs in the cream count toward her 3.7 gm allowed for the meal. So this particular meal was 67 gm of cream (1.7 g carb, 1.3 g protein, 24 g. fat), 21 gm deluxe American cheese (.5 g carb, 4 g protein, 7 g fat) and 10 gm apple (1.5 gm carb). This is not appetizing--it's very little apple and a lot of fat. We used a food scale, planned her meals on a spreadsheet, and kept a recipe binder with meals that worked. You can't wing it--you have to measure everything and stay in ratio at every meal. Now for her, falling out of ketosis meant increased risk of seizure. I'm not sure if people following the diet for weight loss take it as seriously, but if they do, there is no cheating and there is a lot of careful planning.

[IfIOnly]

Are you sure that's correct?An ounce of raw tomato is about 1g carbohydrates (checked usda and canadian database just for thoroughness) so that would be more than a 2 pound tomato. Is it possible that whatever entry you're using accidentally entered the calories where the carbohydrates should be? MFP has some very suspect entries. Look for the USDA ones.

 

I'd like to throw a plug in here for cronometer as a tracking tool -- it doesn't have the barcode scanner etc like myfitnesspal but if you make your own food the databases are far more accurate. There's a paid version but the free version is incredibly functional.

You know you're probably right. I did notice quite a bit of variation with the food stats on MF P. I will check out that app. Thank you!

 

So I quickly did one of the keto calories and I need to eat a lot more fat. Wow. It wasn't totally accurate because I need to figure my BMI but still:

 

Maintenance: 137 grams of fat

 

Slow weight loss: 122

 

Moderate loss: 106

 

Quick loss: 90

 

Wow. I like fat and all, but it will be nice to add some carbs in later so I don't need to eat solo much. Ha!

[IfIOnly]

My experience with the ketogenic diet is medical--my seizure kid was on it for 3 years from age 3 to 6 for seizure control. It's not a healthy diet--she was monitored by a dietician and her neurologist and had regular bloodwork. It was worth the cost for improved seizure control for awhile, but there are inherit problems like constipation, not enough calcium, high triglycerides. I know it's popular among some for weight loss, but you should be aware of the downsides.

 

Managing the diet is a math problem. The amount of fat/protein/carbs is a ratio. My daughter's dietician set the ratio (it changed a few times) and the number of calories she would need. I'm looking at her old binder and a meal for a 3.5:1 ratio. That means that you add the amount of grams of protein and carbs together, multiply it by 3.5, and that's how many grams of fat you need for that meal. Every meal has to be balanced or you could fall out of ketosis. You choose the ratio by what your body needs to stay in ketosis, so they started my dd out strict (a higher ratio) and then found that a lower ratio could still keep her in ketosis and was a little more appetizing.

 

I think my dd's calorie count was somewhere around 1000 calories per day divided evenly into 3 meals. Her dietician wanted her to have 5 gm of protein per meal for her body's needs for cell growth. She got 3.7 gm carbs per meal. That adds up to 8.7, multiply that by 3.5 and she needed to consume 31 grams of fat for that meal. It really is a lot of fat, usually provided by cream. The carbs in the cream count toward her 3.7 gm allowed for the meal. So this particular meal was 67 gm of cream (1.7 g carb, 1.3 g protein, 24 g. fat), 21 gm deluxe American cheese (.5 g carb, 4 g protein, 7 g fat) and 10 gm apple (1.5 gm carb). This is not appetizing--it's very little apple and a lot of fat. We used a food scale, planned her meals on a spreadsheet, and kept a recipe binder with meals that worked. You can't wing it--you have to measure everything and stay in ratio at every meal. Now for her, falling out of ketosis meant increased risk of seizure. I'm not sure if people following the diet for weight loss take it as seriously, but if they do, there is no cheating and there is a lot of careful planning.

 

Thank you for sharing. I appreciate that. The diet must have been so tough for you all with the limitations and calculating. 3 years is a long time. I hope you have found something else to help with the seizures?

 

I think I'm just going to go by a keto calculator recs and on the lower side of the fat recs. If I'm officially in ketosis or not, I'm not too concerened. I will still be low carb, losing weight, and feeling better.

 

With regards to the concerns, thank you. I do take a magnesium supplement daily as well as am doing a Tbsp of ground flax seed daily on this diet (for health reasons mostly), and those should take care of any constipation.

 

I can't have dairy because of allergies and am used to taking a calcium supplemeny and/or getting my calcium from other sources primarily bone broth.

 

About the triglycerides, hmm. I wI'll be doing the lower fat but still high fat option. Also, from what I have gathered, it seems like carbs and sugar and fats (some sources say minorly compared to carbs and sugar) are the biggest factors in raised triglycerides. I'm not doing carbs or sugar. I'm also taking and have been for awhile lots of fish oil, which helps clear and lower triglycerides. There have been people tested on this diet that say their tests kept coming back normal, so I don't know. I think I'll continue unsupervised. I don't have a ton of weight to lose though and shouldn't be on the diet too long.

 

I'm also doing this partly for health reason. For some reason I feel so much better low carb (but not necessarily keto) and my chronic illnesses including depression are better.

Edited July 11, 2016 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[sassenach]

My experience with the ketogenic diet is medical--my seizure kid was on it for 3 years from age 3 to 6 for seizure control. It's not a healthy diet--she was monitored by a dietician and her neurologist and had regular bloodwork. It was worth the cost for improved seizure control for awhile, but there are inherit problems like constipation, not enough calcium, high triglycerides. I know it's popular among some for weight loss, but you should be aware of the downsides.

 

Managing the diet is a math problem. The amount of fat/protein/carbs is a ratio. My daughter's dietician set the ratio (it changed a few times) and the number of calories she would need. I'm looking at her old binder and a meal for a 3.5:1 ratio. That means that you add the amount of grams of protein and carbs together, multiply it by 3.5, and that's how many grams of fat you need for that meal. Every meal has to be balanced or you could fall out of ketosis. You choose the ratio by what your body needs to stay in ketosis, so they started my dd out strict (a higher ratio) and then found that a lower ratio could still keep her in ketosis and was a little more appetizing.

 

I think my dd's calorie count was somewhere around 1000 calories per day divided evenly into 3 meals. Her dietician wanted her to have 5 gm of protein per meal for her body's needs for cell growth. She got 3.7 gm carbs per meal. That adds up to 8.7, multiply that by 3.5 and she needed to consume 31 grams of fat for that meal. It really is a lot of fat, usually provided by cream. The carbs in the cream count toward her 3.7 gm allowed for the meal. So this particular meal was 67 gm of cream (1.7 g carb, 1.3 g protein, 24 g. fat), 21 gm deluxe American cheese (.5 g carb, 4 g protein, 7 g fat) and 10 gm apple (1.5 gm carb). This is not appetizing--it's very little apple and a lot of fat. We used a food scale, planned her meals on a spreadsheet, and kept a recipe binder with meals that worked. You can't wing it--you have to measure everything and stay in ratio at every meal. Now for her, falling out of ketosis meant increased risk of seizure. I'm not sure if people following the diet for weight loss take it as seriously, but if they do, there is no cheating and there is a lot of careful planning.

Ditto all of this. It mystifies me that this is being used as a weight loss diet. It's brutal. Going into ketosis is dangerous. Maintaining requires incredible accuracy and diligence.

 

It seems like a regular old low carb diet would be so much healthier, easier, more sustainable, and better than this.

[IfIOnly]

Ditto all of this. It mystifies me that this is being used as a weight loss diet. It's brutal. Going into ketosis is dangerous. Maintaining requires incredible accuracy and diligence.

 

It seems like a regular old low carb diet would be so much healthier, easier, more sustainable, and better than this.

It's not something I would recommend long term (although more and more medical conditions other than epilepsy are being found to respond well to a keto diet like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease), my research says actually a lot of beneficial things happen in ketosis like increased mitochondria in the brain. There isn't a lot of long term research but some really promising studies out there.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ditto all of this. It mystifies me that this is being used as a weight loss diet. It's brutal. Going into ketosis is dangerous. Maintaining requires incredible accuracy and diligence.

 

It seems like a regular old low carb diet would be so much healthier, easier, more sustainable, and better than this.

 

I think you are confusing ketosis with the ketoacidosis associated with diabetes.  They are not the same thing. 

 

I myself go into ketosis without going super low carb.  Granted, much lower than the traditional high carb diet, but not zero carbs by any means. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I only count carbs.  I do not worry about the rest of the stuff.

 

 

[sassenach]

I think you are confusing ketosis with the ketoacidosis associated with diabetes.  They are not the same thing. 

 

I myself go into ketosis without going super low carb.  Granted, much lower than the traditional high carb diet, but not zero carbs by any means. 

This may be a matter of definitions. MY definition of the ketogenic diet is the medical definition. When going going onto that diet, they hospitalize the patient so they can closely monitor them as they enter into ketosis and prevent them from going into ketoacidosis. That's one of the dangers of the diet. 

 

On an ongoing basis, pretty much all of the medical professionals that I've ever talked to about it agree that it is not a healthy diet. There are many risks. When on the diet, you must weigh every ingredient down to a hundredth of a gram. Even toothpaste can throw it off. 

 

There is a big difference between the ketogenic diet and a low carb diet that causes a person to burn fat. I always get thrown when people talk about the ketogenic diet in weight loss contexts. I think someone wrote on here once that it would be like hearing someone talk about using chemotherapy to lose a few pounds. As a parent who has seen the medical ketogenic diet in action, it just sounds bananas. 

 

And frankly, I can't control the world, but I wish that the weight loss diet was called something different, because they are not the same thing. 

 

What really needs to happen is I need to learn some self control and just keep my nose out of keto weight loss threads. It would save us all some annoyance.  :D

[SparklyUnicorn]

This may be a matter of definitions. MY definition of the ketogenic diet is the medical definition. When going going onto that diet, they hospitalize the patient so they can closely monitor them as they enter into ketosis and prevent them from going into ketoacidosis. That's one of the dangers of the diet. 

 

On an ongoing basis, pretty much all of the medical professionals that I've ever talked to about it agree that it is not a healthy diet. There are many risks. When on the diet, you must weigh every ingredient down to a hundredth of a gram. Even toothpaste can throw it off. 

 

There is a big difference between the ketogenic diet and a low carb diet that causes a person to burn fat. I always get thrown when people talk about the ketogenic diet in weight loss contexts. I think someone wrote on here once that it would be like hearing someone talk about using chemotherapy to lose a few pounds. As a parent who has seen the medical ketogenic diet in action, it just sounds bananas. 

 

And frankly, I can't control the world, but I wish that the weight loss diet was called something different, because they are not the same thing. 

 

What really needs to happen is I need to learn some self control and just keep my nose out of keto weight loss threads. It would save us all some annoyance.  :D

 

I thought the ketogentic diets were the very low carb diets like Atkins.  I have a few ketogentic cookbooks and it's just regular ole low carb stuff.  So I guess we aren't talking about the same things?

 

 

[sassenach]

I thought the ketogentic diets were the very low carb diets like Atkins.  I have a few ketogentic cookbooks and it's just regular ole low carb stuff.  So I guess we aren't talking about the same things?

 

 

No, we're not. And that's the problem. It's my problem. I'm the one who knows the difference, so I need to be the one who lets it go!

[SparklyUnicorn]

No, we're not. And that's the problem. It's my problem. I'm the one who knows the difference, so I need to be the one who lets it go!

 

The version you know about sounds awful.  LOL

 

Years ago there was this crazy woman going around telling people to go on this super low carb and super low fat diet.  She posted fake pictures claiming it was her who had the success on the diet.  Some people even sued her for fraud because she was making money on some message board or something. 

[IfIOnly]

I'm sorry it I'm using the wrong terminology! I like using a formula and specified daily goals, so the "keto diet" works for me. I like how the fat makes me feel full and not hungry, and measuring protein is good for me because I tend to not get enough. I'm not sure how someone would know that they truly are in ketosis anyway?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm sorry it I'm using the wrong terminology! I like using a formula and specified daily goals, so the "keto diet" works for me. I like how the fat makes me feel full and not hungry, and measuring protein is good for me because I tend to not get enough. I'm not sure how someone would know that they truly are in ketosis anyway?

 

I don't think you are using the wrong terminology.  I have heard that term used many times with low carb diets.  The idea being you eat a low enough carb level to go into ketosis.  I have no clue what the other thing is. 

 

You can buy keto sticks.  You pee on them and they tell you if you are or are not right away.

 

I don't think they are totally necessary though.

Edited July 11, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[Guest]

No, we're not. And that's the problem. It's my problem. I'm the one who knows the difference, so I need to be the one who lets it go!

Medical ketogenic diets are not the same as nutritional ketosis, which is what it is being called these days. To control things like seizures requires a deeper degree of ketosis than one needs to circumvent the normal energy utilization in the body and deal with weight loss, cravings, etc. They are both correct uses of ketosis but with very different requirements and aims.

 

Some people do go into very deep, medical levels of ketosis for diet reasons but that is rarely needed and usually only for shorter term duration. In adults it has less side effects than growing children, but nutritional ketosis has more nutrient balance than medically indicated ketosis. They are a matter of degree and it really makes a difference in the livability and health long term.

[Guest]

The version you know about sounds awful. LOL

 

Years ago there was this crazy woman going around telling people to go on this super low carb and super low fat diet. She posted fake pictures claiming it was her who had the success on the diet. Some people even sued her for fraud because she was making money on some message board or something.

Kimkins was the fraud and it hurt a lot of people. Properly formulated diet plans are SO important.

 

 

For a good overview of nutritional ketosis, sites like Eating Academy (Peter Attia) and Diet Doctor (Andreas Eenfeldt) are the starting points I recommend online. There is a ton of crossover with older style Atkins, in that these methods are also low carb, but there tends to be more of a focus on maximizing performance and health and an avoidance of frankenfoods and low carb products compared with run of the mill low carb. There are also goals other than weight loss being pursued.

 

http://eatingacademy.com/start-here

http://www.dietdoctor.com

[SparklyUnicorn]

Kimkins was the fraud and it hurt a lot of people. Properly formulated diet plans are SO important.

 

 

For a good overview of nutritional ketosis, sites like Eating Academy (Peter Attia) and Diet Doctor (Andreas Eenfeldt) are the starting points I recommend online. There is a ton of crossover with older style Atkins, in that these methods are also low carb, but there tends to be more of a focus on maximizing performance and health and an avoidance of frankenfoods and low carb products compared with run of the mill low carb. There are also goals other than weight loss being pursued.

 

http://eatingacademy.com/start-here

http://www.dietdoctor.com

 

That's the one!

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimkins

[IfIOnly]

Kimkins was the fraud and it hurt a lot of people. Properly formulated diet plans are SO important.

For a good overview of nutritional ketosis, sites like Eating Academy (Peter Attia) and Diet Doctor (Andreas Eenfeldt) are the starting points I recommend online. There is a ton of crossover with older style Atkins, in that these methods are also low carb, but there tends to be more of a focus on maximizing performance and health and an avoidance of frankenfoods and low carb products compared with run of the mill low carb. There are also goals other than weight loss being pursued.http://eatingacademy.com/start-herehttp://www.dietdoctor.com

Thank you for the resources! I look forward to reading them.