Couple of LA questions: IEW/EIW and ELTL/FLL

[sunshineslp]

hi guys and gals:)

 

I tried searching this site and didn't see exactly what I was looking for.  so here are my questions:  for lower elementary (2 and 3rd grades). 

 

1)  which program do you prefer and why?  IEW/EIW?  i think EIW is "easier" to use and definitely less expensive.  but is IEW "better" overall?  my kids don't LOVE writing and I need step by step, organized help to teach it. 

 

2)  ELTL/FLL:  I know that FLL is more classical and ELTL is a mix of classical and CM, but what other major differences are there?  for anyone who may have used both, which do you prefer and why?  I am looking for medium scripting (or scripting that i can easily omit if i dont' need it, but I do like some scripting) and easy to use, open and go, not having to gather materials.  ELTL is VERY intriquing to me but I am concerned the books will be a headache to download/find.  i know, that sounds so lazy.  i really want something that doesn't require searching and gathering.  is ELTL simpler than I am thinking?  yes, i have looked at samples galore and i do like it.  tell me about the book situation though.  is that ever a headache?  I have also considered R&S (but i worry about the parent intensiveness of it, i need a program that might have a little bit of independent work or at least one that isn't lengthy to teach) and shurley (same concerns as R&S).

 

thanks :)

[mysticmomma]

What is eltl? I'm deciding between iew/eiw as wel.

[sunshineslp]

English language through literature, I think:) it's through wayfarers, or barefoot ragamuffin.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[Slache]

What is eltl? I'm deciding between iew/eiw as wel.

 

English Lessons Through Literature

[sunshineslp]

oops, yeah, i got the name wrong! 

[Slache]

I only know because I've looked at it 5,000 times. My oldest will be in Kindergarten this year so I don't know about these curricula or I'd answer your question! We're using Reading Lessons Through Literature (RLTL) by the same author and I adore it. I feel that ELTL is less scripted and more malleable than FLL/WWE but I say that only based on examples. My intention is to use ELTL/RLTL as our main curriculum and go through the TWSS (IEW) DVDs and use that method as a write across the curriculum kinda thing. EIW does not interest me at all. It looks boring and stiff. I'm interested in ELTL because it will incorporate factors I want in our homeschool such as poetry, memory work and art study, but will cover grammar and composition without taking 2 hours a day 5 days a week. I want the freedom to let the kids do other things.

 

Another option would be to read TWTM 1st or 4th edition and implement the ideas yourself. I know the 1st is great and I assume the 4th is as well considering the things she's said about it. Good luck in your decision process. And look at samples!

[sunshineslp]

do you know if it is preferred to get the PDF version or the printed book version?  Is the printed book consumable? 

[Slache]

It's non consumable but there is an optional workbook for $15. I don't think it matters if you by PDF or paperback. I bought PDF in the homeschool bundle thingie. It's well laid out and open and go so I don't regret it.

 

PDF $15

Perfect Bound $25

Spiral Bound $28 (lays flat)

Workbook $15

[mamamoose]

I really am liking FLL1. It only takes 10 minutes and it is scripted but I feel like skipping stuff is easy enough and we add lib too.

[TheAttachedMama]

I have used both ELTL and FLL/WWE combo.    

 I much prefer ELTL.     I will compare the two below.   (NOTE:  I like to compare FLL/WWE combo with ELTL because I feel like that is a more fair comparison for WTM products.   ELTL contains  grammar and writing instruction whereas FLL is *just* grammar (so only a small part of ELTL)  and WWE is *just* writing.   ELTL is more a combination of both FLL and WWE....plus literature)

 

The first thing you know is that you really can't go wrong with either option.   It is sort of like asking me to compare a Mercedes with a BMW.   Both are going to be really nice.   So if I sound critical of one, that doesn't mean it is a BAD program---it just means that I personally like one really nice program over the other really nice program.   

 

Pros to FLL:

-Memory work is scheduled in so it is easier to remember to do.

-I like the poetry choices in FLL better than ELTL  (Especially when you get to ELTL 3 and above.)

-Poetry memorization and review is scheduled in FLL, so again, it is easier to remember to do.   In ELTL, you are supposed to do this on your own.  I think many people might let this slide if they don't have a reminder everyday to do it and review it.   And I think this is really an important thing for kids.)

-Diagramming is taught in a *bit* cleaner way in FLL.   This is both a pro and a con depending on your viewpoint.    FLL uses made up sentences to teach diagramming---- VERY simple made up sentences.   And kids practice diagramming the same type of sentence for weeks and weeks before another part of speech is introduced.  And the sentences all follow the same basic pattern.   Example:   Week one.  Diagram these sentences:  The cat jumped.   The dog barked.   A bird sang.  A lion roared.   Week 2:  same thing different nouns and verbs.   Week 3:  The fat cat jumped.   The big dog barked.   The small bird sang.   The fierce lion roared.   Week 4:   The fat cat jumped swiftly.  The big dog barked loudly.  The small bird sang sweetly.   The fierce lion roared powerfully.    ELTL uses real sentences from real books to teach diagramming.   Real language is often not as clean and much dirtier.   I personally like that.  But it is probably preference.   

  

Cons to FLL/WWE:

-They teach writing with models from excerpts from books.  This was a real sticking point for me.   This bothers me for severals reasons:

For one thing, this reminds me of the crummy public school education I received where we learned language arts through these textbooks where "parts" of great books were taken out and we read a few paragraphs to save time.  (We read very few books all the way through.)  Please don't get me wrong.   I am not saying that FLL is crummy!  FAR FROM IT!!   It is an EXCELLENT product. EXCELLENT.   I am just saying that I dislike using excerpts from books to teach language.   I much prefer to read the books in context.      WWE uses excerpts because it is NOT meant to be a literature program.   It is only meant to teach your children to narrate, do copywork, dictate, etc.    You are suppose to treat literature as a separate subject....and that leads me to my next point.

WWE/FLL isn't a very efficient use of my time.     There is so much over lap in WWE/FLL.   I am an ex-engineer, and the inefficiencies in the pair drive my brain bonkers.   My time as a homeschooling mama is SO incredibly precious.   I need to be a highly efficient to make the most of my time.    I cannot have overlap and time wasters.   And with the WWE/FLL combo, there is a ton of overlap.   For example, I am already reading aloud literature to the kids in another subject.   Why do I need to read them more excerpts just so they have something to narrate and do dictation from?   Doesn't that seem silly to anyone else?   I am already reading to them from non-fiction books (SOTW, Quark Chronicles, etc.)---so why do I need to read excerpts from more non-fictions books for writing.    Then....there is the overlap in copywork and dictation.   FLL has assigned copywork and dictation (because that is your grammar subject)....then there is more copywork and dictation in WWE (because that is your writing subject)----and if you are doing dictation or copywork in spelling or history or handwriting---there is even more overlap!   Practice is a good thing---don't get me wrong.  But copywork, dictation, and narration is scheduled in nearly every recommended subject using TWTM recommendations.    So most people have two options:  1)  do everything (sort of an overkill), 2)  cut things (and then you are left wondering if you cut the right thing---or if you are doing enough, etc.)   I have found that ELTL is extremely efficient and I can get SOOOOOOOO much done with my kids and give them a great education because I am making the most of my time.   

The third reason I don't like using excerpts is the way it teaches kids to practice composing narratives.   (Because oral narration is basically oral composition.  You must speak first, then write.)   I think that fables are much better for this purpose because kids practice actually re-telling a complete story.   As opposed to just summarizing a few paragraphs from Mr. Popper's Penguins...you know??

 

   I am nearly positive that hearing well written language read aloud is one of the best things you can do to produce great writers.....and one look at ELTL will let you know that it is just FEEDING your child's mind with lots of great literature read in its entirety.   So that is the main reason I like it.    

 

 

-----------

 

IEW vs EIW...

I have not used either of these programs, so someone feel free to correct me if I have anything wrong.   But here is my take....

 

Number 1---these programs are going to be VERY different than what I talked about above.      ELTL and FLL/WWE use the classical model of teaching writing.   (And ELTL throws in a bit of Charlotte Mason's teachings. She describes it as being "classical mason".)  

 

IEW and EIW are VERY, VERY different.   

 

EIW is very much in line with how most kids in public school learn to write.  (And language arts in general.)   That isn't a bad thing at all!   It just is much more traditional-American-school.   Grammar and writing are taught together.   The scope and sequence is very much what I did when I was in school.

 

IEW is a bit different.   It teaches writing using both structure and style.   Kids are taught to make key word outlines from an existing piece of writing.  The goal here is to give their writing structure.   (Very different from regular outlining.  Regular outlining is taught in WWS and ELTL 4 and up.  KWO are different.)   In key word outlining, you get to pick only three words per sentence (or symbols / small pictures).   This is to remind you of what the author was saying while making it more difficult for the student to blatantly plagiarize the words of the author.   Next, the student follows these stylistic models (using things like "dress up", "openers") to give their paragraphs and sentences variety and some style.   There are banned words so the student can't use words like "said" or "good" for example.  (This is to encourage copia)  There are usually checklists that the student must follow which dictate how many of certain style-things they need to include.  Some argue that IEW is too formalistic....but I think some kids really need a formula.   Most of IEWs programs teach just writing.   You will have to add in a separate grammar program.   IEW publishes their own grammar program called "fix it" which is pretty neat looking.   Kids learn grammar through editing a complete story and copywork.

 

[sunshineslp]

That was an amazing comparison... Thank you!! So eltl would cover grammar/lit/reading/writing... And adding to it isnt necessary? I see what you mean about overlaps and the snippets of stories in FLL/wwe. I'm not sure that's a sticking point for us. I like that it's all there. Laid out for me. I need that. But it sounds like eltl is equally easily laid out. Downloading the stories is honestly my biggest hesitation, because I've not used a program where this was needed and so I'm not sure how cumbersome it'll be (we would use an iPad)

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[mamamoose]

I have used both ELTL and FLL/WWE combo.    

 I much prefer ELTL.     I will compare the two below.   (NOTE:  I like to compare FLL/WWE combo with ELTL because I feel like that is a more fair comparison for WTM products.   ELTL contains  grammar and writing instruction whereas FLL is *just* grammar (so only a small part of ELTL)  and WWE is *just* writing.   ELTL is more a combination of both FLL and WWE....plus literature)

 

The first thing you know is that you really can't go wrong with either option.   It is sort of like asking me to compare a Mercedes with a BMW.   Both are going to be really nice.   So if I sound critical of one, that doesn't mean it is a BAD program---it just means that I personally like one really nice program over the other really nice program.   

 

Pros to FLL:

-Memory work is scheduled in so it is easier to remember to do.

-I like the poetry choices in FLL better than ELTL  (Especially when you get to ELTL 3 and above.)

-Poetry memorization and review is scheduled in FLL, so again, it is easier to remember to do.   In ELTL, you are supposed to do this on your own.  I think many people might let this slide if they don't have a reminder everyday to do it and review it.   And I think this is really an important thing for kids.)

-Diagramming is taught in a *bit* cleaner way in FLL.   This is both a pro and a con depending on your viewpoint.    FLL uses made up sentences to teach diagramming---- VERY simple made up sentences.   And kids practice diagramming the same type of sentence for weeks and weeks before another part of speech is introduced.  And the sentences all follow the same basic pattern.   Example:   Week one.  Diagram these sentences:  The cat jumped.   The dog barked.   A bird sang.  A lion roared.   Week 2:  same thing different nouns and verbs.   Week 3:  The fat cat jumped.   The big dog barked.   The small bird sang.   The fierce lion roared.   Week 4:   The fat cat jumped swiftly.  The big dog barked loudly.  The small bird sang sweetly.   The fierce lion roared powerfully.    ELTL uses real sentences from real books to teach diagramming.   Real language is often not as clean and much dirtier.   I personally like that.  But it is probably preference.   

  

Cons to FLL/WWE:

-They teach writing with models from excerpts from books.  This was a real sticking point for me.   This bothers me for severals reasons:

For one thing, this reminds me of the crummy public school education I received where we learned language arts through these textbooks where "parts" of great books were taken out and we read a few paragraphs to save time.  (We read very few books all the way through.)  Please don't get me wrong.   I am not saying that FLL is crummy!  FAR FROM IT!!   It is an EXCELLENT product. EXCELLENT.   I am just saying that I dislike using excerpts from books to teach language.   I much prefer to read the books in context.      WWE uses excerpts because it is NOT meant to be a literature program.   It is only meant to teach your children to narrate, do copywork, dictate, etc.    You are suppose to treat literature as a separate subject....and that leads me to my next point.

WWE/FLL isn't a very efficient use of my time.     There is so much over lap in WWE/FLL.   I am an ex-engineer, and the inefficiencies in the pair drive my brain bonkers.   My time as a homeschooling mama is SO incredibly precious.   I need to be a highly efficient to make the most of my time.    I cannot have overlap and time wasters.   And with the WWE/FLL combo, there is a ton of overlap.   For example, I am already reading aloud literature to the kids in another subject.   Why do I need to read them more excerpts just so they have something to narrate and do dictation from?   Doesn't that seem silly to anyone else?   I am already reading to them from non-fiction books (SOTW, Quark Chronicles, etc.)---so why do I need to read excerpts from more non-fictions books for writing.    Then....there is the overlap in copywork and dictation.   FLL has assigned copywork and dictation (because that is your grammar subject)....then there is more copywork and dictation in WWE (because that is your writing subject)----and if you are doing dictation or copywork in spelling or history or handwriting---there is even more overlap!   Practice is a good thing---don't get me wrong.  But copywork, dictation, and narration is scheduled in nearly every recommended subject using TWTM recommendations.    So most people have two options:  1)  do everything (sort of an overkill), 2)  cut things (and then you are left wondering if you cut the right thing---or if you are doing enough, etc.)   I have found that ELTL is extremely efficient and I can get SOOOOOOOO much done with my kids and give them a great education because I am making the most of my time.   

The third reason I don't like using excerpts is the way it teaches kids to practice composing narratives.   (Because oral narration is basically oral composition.  You must speak first, then write.)   I think that fables are much better for this purpose because kids practice actually re-telling a complete story.   As opposed to just summarizing a few paragraphs from Mr. Popper's Penguins...you know??

 

   I am nearly positive that hearing well written language read aloud is one of the best things you can do to produce great writers.....and one look at ELTL will let you know that it is just FEEDING your child's mind with lots of great literature read in its entirety.   So that is the main reason I like it.    

 

 

-----------

 

IEW vs EIW...

I have not used either of these programs, so someone feel free to correct me if I have anything wrong.   But here is my take....

 

Number 1---these programs are going to be VERY different than what I talked about above.      ELTL and FLL/WWE use the classical model of teaching writing.   (And ELTL throws in a bit of Charlotte Mason's teachings. She describes it as being "classical mason".)  

 

IEW and EIW are VERY, VERY different.   

 

EIW is very much in line with how most kids in public school learn to write.  (And language arts in general.)   That isn't a bad thing at all!   It just is much more traditional-American-school.   Grammar and writing are taught together.   The scope and sequence is very much what I did when I was in school.

 

IEW is a bit different.   It teaches writing using both structure and style.   Kids are taught to make key word outlines from an existing piece of writing.  The goal here is to give their writing structure.   (Very different from regular outlining.  Regular outlining is taught in WWS and ELTL 4 and up.  KWO are different.)   In key word outlining, you get to pick only three words per sentence (or symbols / small pictures).   This is to remind you of what the author was saying while making it more difficult for the student to blatantly plagiarize the words of the author.   Next, the student follows these stylistic models (using things like "dress up", "openers") to give their paragraphs and sentences variety and some style.   There are banned words so the student can't use words like "said" or "good" for example.  (This is to encourage copia)  There are usually checklists that the student must follow which dictate how many of certain style-things they need to include.  Some argue that IEW is too formalistic....but I think some kids really need a formula.   Most of IEWs programs teach just writing.   You will have to add in a separate grammar program.   IEW publishes their own grammar program called "fix it" which is pretty neat looking.   Kids learn grammar through editing a complete story and copywork.

Well now I wish I had known about this before I purchased WWE/FLL! Oh Well...

[TheAttachedMama]

Yes, I think both programs are equally well laid out.   EXCEPT that ELTL doesn't remind you to memorize poems and grammar memory work.   But, ELTL also has everything in one book--so you don't have to flip around so much.

 

To answer your other question, yes,  ELTL contains poetry, fables, writing, grammar, and art appreciation.  It is everything you need for language arts.   We add in all about spelling and reading practice, but many people *just* teach spelling through copy-work and dictation.  (And have their kids practice oral reading using the poetry and fables.)   My kids are dyslexic so they need extra help--which is why we add it.

 

If you don't mind paying about a dollar per story---all of the stories are available on kindle.   Yes, you can get them for free if you search around too.   But I like kindle becasue a) it is easy to find the book (just type in the name on amazon), b)  everything is formatted very nicely for your screen, c) the app keeps your place,  d) you can highlight passages, search for terms, look up words in the dictionary, etc. 3)  for another two dollars, you can download the audio version on audible and a professional actor will read the book to your kids.  (if you lose your voice or something or are just out of time, etc.)  

 

You just download the kindle app for ipad, and then search amazon for the tile you want.  

 

I'm not sure what level you are looking at, but as an example:  

 

Wind in the Willows ($1):  http://www.amazon.com/Wind-Willows-Illustrated-Kenneth-Grahame-ebook/dp/B00OR5R37M/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1458679669&sr=1-1&keywords=wind+in+the+willows

 

Wizard of Oz (Free):  http://www.amazon.com/Wind-Willows-Illustrated-Kenneth-Grahame-ebook/dp/B00OR5R37M/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1458679669&sr=1-1&keywords=wind+in+the+willows

 

The Jungle Book (Free):  http://www.amazon.com/The-Jungle-Book-Rudyard-Kipling-ebook/dp/B0084B1T8Y/ref=pd_sim_351_15?ie=UTF8&dpID=51ToKqcLm2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_OU01_AC_UL160_SR107%2C160_&refRID=0VRVPNQ4NSAJ7EE1R1C7

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[mysticmomma]

How easy/hard is it to omit diagramming from eltl?

[TheAttachedMama]

Well now I wish I had known about this before I purchased WWE/FLL! Oh Well...

Don't worry!  WWE and FLL are GREAT!   Like I said, it is like comparing a Mercedes with a BMW.   And also like I said, what do I know?    I am just one person....and these are JUST my opinions.   There are probably many others who probably prefer WWE and FLL.   :)  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I used FLL 1-4 with two kids and that worked out well. Retention was excellent, it was very very open and go (perfect for a new homeschooler especially), and my kids never complained about it.  I'm not familiar with the other one.  I used Essentials in Writing, but level 9.  It was meh.  I know the lower levels spend a lot of time on grammar.  By 9th it's mostly about the other aspects of writing.  So I don't have a ton to say about that one.  I have been using IEW this year and so far this has been my favorite for writing.  I wish I had discovered it sooner.  I shied away because of the cost, but it has been worth every penny.  It's all about writing though.  There is no grammar (unless you get one of their grammar products, but I know nothing about those).

 

 

[TheAttachedMama]

How easy/hard is it to omit diagramming from eltl?

 

Diagramming starts in ELTL 3.  It is not in the lower levels.  It is a major part of the program.   Grammar is taught in other ways, for example parts of speech identification in copywork, playing with the sentence by changing parts of speech, etc.---but diagramming sentences is a big part of the program.  

You could of course skip it, BUT why would you want to??!!   (You don't have to answer that.   lol)  Pre-homeschooling, I used to think that diagramming sentences was a total waste of time.  Total.   But--I am really seeing how important it is the longer I homeschool.   It really forces you to see what each word is doing in the sentence.  I have also found that it helps clarify your thought process.   

[sunshineslp]

Thanks girls!:)

 

I'm pulled toward FLL... Only because it feels more systematic... Is that true? It feels like the grammar is stronger? But is it? Or am I just not well enough familiar with eltl?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[hands-on-mama]

Thanks girls!:)

 

I'm pulled toward FLL... Only because it feels more systematic... Is that true? It feels like the grammar is stronger? But is it? Or am I just not well enough familiar with eltl?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

Which levels of ELTL are you looking at? Since it is partly CM, the grammar starts out very gentle. It Ramos up in level 3 though.

[sunshineslp]

I'm thinking level 2... It would be for my 3rd grader (next year). He's 8...

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[hands-on-mama]

I'm thinking level 2... It would be for my 3rd grader (next year). He's 8...

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

Yes, you'll see a big difference once you get to level 3. Level 2 is a gentle introduction. It just depends on whether you are okay with that. My oldest started level 2 in January and she seems to grasp what each part of speech is. I'm fine not going deeper at this point. Grammar is an abstract concept and most 8 year olds aren't quite ready for the abstract yet. :) Just my opinion.