Book of interest: The Math Myth

[MarkT]

http://thenewpress.com/books/math-myth

 

I have not read this book and probably will not but there is a significant percentage of students (maybe 25) that just can't handle upper level HS Math such as Algebra 2 and beyond.

 

There should be alternative paths for these students to graduate from HS.

[creekland]

http://thenewpress.com/books/math-myth

 

I have not read this book and probably will not but there is a significant percentage of students (maybe 25) that just can't handle upper level HS Math such as Algebra 2 and beyond.

 

There should be alternative paths for these students to graduate from HS.

 

Can't comment on the book, but I fully agree with the percentage you listed.  Fortunately, our state only requires through Alg 1, but even that is pushing it for some students.  Our school has lower level math classes for these students to get math credits, but if they have to pass an Alg 1 Keystone test to graduate, significant numbers will not be getting diplomas.  As of now, this requirement has been pushed back a couple more years fortunately.

 

Human brains are not equal in their ability to handle academic subjects.  Add in any brain issues (including drugs and alcohol use by the student or their mom) and there's definitely a problem with expectations.

[creekland]

My nephew was unable to get his high school diploma in NY since he couldn't pass the regents required.  It cut off paths for him.  I honestly don't understand why anyone considers their policy to be a good one.  The good one was the one they had with dual degrees - a Regents degree and a Non-Regents degree.  Then the Regents tests were far better too.

[flyingiguana]

A rebuttal to some points in the book: http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-math-myth-that-permeates-math-myth.html

 

My own personal observation is that there are some kids who don't "get" higher math in high school (or middle school), but many of them do seem to be able to get it later.  I don't know if that's a brain maturation problem or if the teaching in some schools is bad (or just that the 3rd around is the charm), but I do think that telling a child they're bad at math so don't ever bother is the wrong message.

 

There's a reason why reading isn't generally taught until about age 6.5.  By the same token, it wouldn't surprise me if we just haven't figured out the best age to teach these math concepts, or if the best age is highly variable between individuals.

[Ravin]

I heard a thing on NPR the other day about a growing movement to get unnecessary advanced maths (algebra, trig) out of the way of high school and college students who lack the aptitude and/or are pursuing college majors where they're never actually going to use it. The idea is to get these students math they will actually use, including statistics, instead. 

 

 

[Janice in NJ]

Has anyone read the book?

 

I have, and I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss what Hacker said. And I would like to hear what math lovers/appreciators and non-math appreciators think about Devlin's response after reading the book.

 

Thanks,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Chrysalis Academy]

I just put it on hold. I'm very interested in reading it, particularly after reading the reviews and the op-ed piece. I do think it that a "statistics for citizenship" type class would be a better requirement for all high school graduates than classes in calculus, computer science, or even economics. 

 

I'm sympathetic to Devlin's argument that the way math is taught - with a lack of conceptual understanding by the teachers leading to a lack of conceptual understanding by the students - is more of a problem than algebra concepts, per se. But that's not a problem that is going to be solved in the short term.  Offering students classes in the kind of mathematical thinking that will be useful in their daily life and make them more critical, engaged consumers of data is something that could happen, though, as is taking a step back from the thinking that an all-STEM focused education is superior to other kinds of education.

[8filltheheart]

, as is taking a step back from the thinking that an all-STEM focused education is superior to other kinds of education.

Off topic, but tell that to the gov of KY. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/00c9b100c5ca424a986fa05ab9e150a7/kentucky-push-engineers-over-french-lit-scholars

(The irony in the story is actually quite astounding.)

[Janice in NJ]

I am quite familiar with the STEM-crisis-as-a-myth argument Hacker put forth in the 1st half of the book (the problem).

 

He is not the first. And he says so; he comments that he had been gathering the material for the book for over ten years. Among others, the following title supports Hacker, and he refers to it in one of his first footnotes.

 

Falling Behind?: Boom, Bust, and the Global Race for Scientific Talent: Michael S. Teitelbaum: 9780691154664: Amazon.com: Books

http://www.amazon.com/Falling-Behind-Global-Scientific-Talent/dp/069115466X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1458137170&sr=8-2&keywords=Falling+behind

 

According to Hacker, the algebra - calculus sequence is not important for most careers. For instance, he spends some time claiming that engineers only use arithmetic. (pg. 52-54; BYW, I found this argument incredibly weak. A gal who trains high school math teachers was observing some engineers who were supervising the construction of an apartment complex. "... she peered over their shoulders, as they were confirming that some trusses would bear a building's weight... 'Algebra usually offers a heavy dose of complicated algebraic manipulation. In contrast, the manipulation I observed in structural engineering work was always simple, involving only one or a few basic operations' she reported." OMG, and Shakespeare wrote, "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none." He obviously has never heard of a dependent clause, and he did fine. Obviously it's a waste of time to teach advanced sentence structure. sigh. Engineers use the tool they need for the job. But you can't choose the right tool with confidence if you don't know how the other tools work. Top chefs use spoons to stir, but they have worked a whisk and immediately know when to reach for one. )

 

Back to Hacker - students should have the option of choosing other courses that demonstrate that they can acquire high-level problem solving skills. Hacker believes that math is an barrier to higher education for many and should be removed. It should be an optional path to higher education, but kids should have a path that allows them to earn a college diploma without mastering algebra II. He believes the problem is exacerbated when college students are forced to complete a math requirement in order to obtain a degree. He claims that often the course is tacked on as a requirement even though it offers few skills the student is going to need in their major or their career. According to Hacker, it feels like a right of passage, a way to weed out students. He goes on to object that the requirement is insisted on and developed by the senior faculty in the mathematics department although few (or none) of them have ever actually taught the entry-level course. At this level, courses are taught by TAs or adjuncts. 

 

In the second half of the book, he offers insight into a solution he has tried. A math for non-majors college course. He developed and taught such a course. This is where I agree with Devlin; Hacker's course falls short. Within the first couple of chapters of examples, I realized that Hacker probably hasn't spent enough time in a mathematics classroom with a real mathematics teacher. Not the kind of teacher who just shows you what to do in order to get the right answer. I'm talking about the kind of teacher who shows you why you are doing what you are doing. 

 

It's much harder to teach this way. 

But it is also much more beautiful.

 

I have oodles of cookbooks. Some of them tell me what to do. And some of them have taught me how to cook. I like the latter. When I'm standing at the supermarket and see a gorgeous pile of fresh rosemary (the one that you can't help but press to your face while you inhale deeply even though you realize you are in public). When this happens, I want to be in the place where my imagination starts popping. "OK. What month is it? What else is in season? What do I have at home in the fridge?" Learning how to ask the right questions is very different from learning how to answer them. But it's a terribly fun way to cook!

 

Devlin's frustration is justified. As is Hacker's - I do wonder how many sections of College Algebra Devlin teaches every semester. Perhaps he and Hacker could learn something from each other.

 

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Chrysalis Academy]

 

Devlin's frustration is justified. As is Hacker's - I do wonder how many sections of College Algebra Devlin teaches every semester. Perhaps he and Hacker could learn something from each other.

 

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

I was thinking the exact same thing.  Thanks for your post.

[Chrysalis Academy]

 

 

It's much harder to teach this way. 

But it is also much more beautiful.

 

 

 

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

I'd love to talk about this more.  It is hard. And for those of us who weren't taught that way, it can be hard to figure out how to do it for our kids, and if we're doing it right. Or even good enough.  I know that in K-4th for one dd, and K-1 for the other, they never had a p.s. teacher who could teach math well.  Talking to other kids, my dd's friends, the local junior high has horrible math teachers, and the high school has exactly one teacher that really teaches well.  So it's not like I could sent my kids to p.s. to get this kind of teaching.  It's on me.

 

It is hard. I feel more angst about this than any other topic. It's hard to find great math teachers, to know when you've found them, to recognize when you haven't and to make changes. I  don't know that I have anything profound to say about this, just that it's hard. You can recognize the problem and still not know exactly how to address it, KWIM?

[FaithManor]

I haven't read the book, but my instinct given what happens locally is that the numbers are skewed. Many of the students who can't handle it here had atrocious math education in elementary school. Our math ed is a joke K-6. I have tutored many a kid who went on to do fine in high school math after they had been properly remediated in basic skills. There just isn't any way that a student is going to master quadratics when he or she does not understand the process for adding and subtracting fractions by converting to like denominators, or that 25% is equal to 1/4th or any number of other fundamentals. My dear friend teaches geometry and algebra 2 in the local high school and says the same thing. He is seeing a lot of kids who could learn higher math, but they have abysmal basic math skills. Given that the K-6 test of basic skills in this state to admitted to elementary ed is so easy it is practically laughable, and 72% is passing (better than some states who allow as low as 65%) and it can be taken multiple times (one of the local 5th grade teachers admitted she failed the TOBS three times before narrowly passing on the 4th try and all because of math which of course she is now teaching), it is no wonder there are problems at the high school level.

 

I have met kids who truly can't learn the material and shouldn't be required to, but I've met plenty more that simply weren't prepared and most of the time, except for the rare, truly lazy, defies motivation type student, it is the fault of poor instruction.

 

I know that I was a victim of that. I had to work my tail off (despite being an "A" math student through middle school) to keep my grades up in high school math, then went to college and, met my DH who was a math major and instinctively quite good at teaching, and then began studying math with him. I'm a self taught calc 1 musician who never thought she'd sit in a college physics class that required trig and calc, but have A's in both my physics classes to prove it wasn't me. It can't be chalked up to a maturity thing either because I graduated high school at 16 and went immediately into college.

 

We see this too on the rocket team. We get kids all.the.time. that are failing high school math, but then dh gets his hands on them and starts explaining introductory aerospace engineering and with it holding their hands through the math. The next thing you know they are solving Barrowman's Equations (alg2/trig) to find the center of pressure on their custom designed rockets, doing things in math and science that if you'd asked them a year ago, "Do you think you are capable of X?" the answer would have been a resounding NO.

 

Still, I do think that we need to have tracked high schools with lots and lots of options for how kids fulfill their requirements to graduate because we should simply care enough about our kids to make that possible, to give them the ability to find their passions and interests and thrive. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and many a young person back in the day learned an awful lot of higher level math once a passion for drafting, electrical engineering, construction, architecture, etc.  or discovered writing isn't so bad when they had a chance to try out some investigative journalism. Our present "one size fits all" education in the face of the overwhelming fact that humans are pretty diverse simply isn't working.

 

Now that said, I haven't had time to read the book! :lol:  :D

[Janice in NJ]

On pg 131, he mentions the Discipline approach and the Discovery approach.

 

The first asks this question:

I have a quarter, a dime, and a nickel in my pocket. How much money do I have?

 

The second asks this: 

I have three coins in my pocket. How much money could I have?

-----------------------

That's fine. The first requires the student to find the right answer. I really don't think there is anything wrong with that. Kids have to do some of that. The second allows for different answers. That's fine, but in the end, they're still either right or wrong, and kids know that. They don't really feel anything different; the adults just feel like they have stimulated something creative.

 

IMO, I think they are both kind of boring. It's fine if they're leading questions. IMO, the problem is that they stop.

However, if the next question is this, then I'm on board:

 

I have 1, 2, or 3 pennies; 1, 2, or 3 nickels; 1, 2, or 3 dimes; and 1, 2, or 3 quarters in my pocket. I must have at least one of each and can't have more than 3 of each. For example, I could have 2 pennies, 1 nickel, 2 dimes, and 3 quarters. 

 

How much money COULDN'T I have? Why? Is there a pattern?

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Rose,

 

I "liked" your post because I empathize. There's no "I understand but don't like what you're going through and wish I could help" button.

 

Janice

[Janice in NJ]

As far as the KY Governor is concerned, I would tell him to focus on generating jobs for engineers. High paying jobs. He will have no shortage of engineers. 

 

 

In fact, I can't see that there presently is a shortage of engineers in Kentucky. Can you?

 

Employment outlook for KY here.  

https://kylmi.ky.gov/admin/gsipub/htmlarea/uploads/Outlook.pdf

 

According to TABLE 1 on Page 6 of the previous document, Kentucky is going to need 909 new engineers and architects to enter the KY workforce every year from 2012-2022.

 

It took a while to find it, but here are the enrollment/graduation numbers for ONE college in Kentucky, the University of Kentucky College of Engineering (Note there is no mention of architects; I have no idea how many of those are graduating every year.).

 

Assuming this isn't the only school in KY producing engineers, it looks like (# graduates) > (# new jobs) NOT the other way around!

 

Fall 2015 By the Numbers | Kentucky Engineering Journal

http://www.engr.uky.edu/kej/by-the-numbers-f2015/

 

So if we convince all those kids who want to study French that they should study civil engineering instead, are they going to find jobs? Where is the projected shortage of engineers in KY going to come from? 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Janice in NJ