Can Someone Help me change Math

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

from Saxon to Singapore?

Here's our current dilema: ds8 doing Saxon 3; ds6(almost 7) doing Saxon2

It is way too repetitive & incremental. They hate it. I hate it.

I could hardly believe some of the concepts in Singapore 2A & 2B that weren't even introduced halfway through Saxon 3. My dh (who is mathy) looked at the Singapore tests and said "this is what our kids should be learning!" We like the standards version.

I've been looking at Singapore for days. Today I gave the boys the placement tests. Both did very well on the 1A. Ds8 did better than 80% on 1B, but freaked at 2A. Ds 6 did very well on 1A, needed some coaching/explanation of terms on 1B and got probably 70% on his own.

Would I be doing either of them a disservice if I started teaching them BOTH Singapore 2A? I don't want to do it just because it seems easier, but I also don't want to start the older boy on something that will be too hard for him, or make him think he's at the 1st grade level. I think the younger would grasp the unfamiliar concepts with just a little extra coaching...especially if his brother could explain it (which ds8 likes to do).

Any advice?

[brehon]

Well, remember that Singapore is generally thought to be ahead of US grade levels, IOW 2A/B have what would generally be 3rd grade material. I might start the elder boy in 2A and have the younger boy spend the rest of the quarter/semester (however you schedule your year) in 1B so that he can really cement the concepts. This would probably also help alleviate the "I'm dumb because my younger brother is doing the same math I am" problem (if, of course, that would be a problem).

 

You can also get the supplemental materials -- CWP (which I highly recommend), Intensive Practice (harder level of the material learned - really helps with conceptual understanding), &/or Extra Practice (just what it says - same level as workbook, more of same type problems) -- to help your boys both learn the material they were shaky on and learn the terms/concepts Singapore uses.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Good advice, thank you. I'll have to consider how they would feel if they were both on the same level, so to speak.

Is it possible to teach 2 different levels of Singapore math at basically the same time? Or should I change our schedule so one boy is doing more independent work (i.e., handwriting or spelling) while the other is getting math instruction from me? I did them both together with Saxon, but basically used the scripts from the higher level teachers guide and then bounced back & forth for the worksheet instruction part. Math has been taking us an hour or more each day, but I don't feel that it is super productive time.

[Mommy22alyns]

Or should I change our schedule so one boy is doing more independent work (i.e., handwriting or spelling) while the other is getting math instruction from me?

 

This sounds like the best idea to me... math is really something that you want to meet each kid where they're at.

 

And I hear you on Saxon being too repetitive and incremental! We lasted a few weeks on Saxon before switching over to Singapore.

[brehon]

I would probably alter the schedule so that each boy gets some undivided math attention. So, your idea about one child working on handwriting and the other doing math with you is a good one.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Thank you guys so much. I wish I could REP YOU! I swear, I've been going around & around with this, and now I think I'm actually ready to ditch the Saxon & order Singapore. How much time do those of you using Singapore take for each math lesson for the younger grades?

[MgoBlue]

We just started with home schooling this year. I was advised to try saxon 2...it was waaaay too easy for 2nd grade 7 yr old dd. I ordered horizons, saxon 3, and rod and staff 3. All that looked waaay too easy...and repetitive. DD still says she doesn't like math, but with singapore, she's getting everything at level 3a in 2nd grade. She doesn't like that she has to *think* and that it's not *easy*, but she really didn't enjoy doing stuff that was too easy. So...I'm supplementing with math drills, and I'll just find additional math problems for her on alternate days. We have the harcourt homeschool workbooks, which she enjoys doing. I'm trying to keep her on task/equivelant to the regular schools in case the economy flops and I'm forced to return to work on a full time basis.

 

good luck with it...it's tough!

 

edit. we spend a lot of time on math. singapore has mental math which dd hates to do. we don't do a lesson a day...we're still beginning so it's all relative...we're not seasoned pros at all...but for example...yesterday I think we spend 2.5 hrs on math getting caught up...but there was a lot of

my saying "get back to your work". (just a little bit of daydreaming going on & "it's too hard...hurting my brain"...things I'd have said about math at that age and older.

Edited September 26, 2008 by MgoBlue
forgot to answer question...

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

We just started with home schooling this year. I was advised to try saxon 2...it was waaaay too easy for 2nd grade 7 yr old dd. I ordered horizons, saxon 3, and rod and staff 3. All that looked waaay too easy...and repetitive. DD still says she doesn't like math, but with singapore, she's getting everything at level 3a in 2nd grade. She doesn't like that she has to *think* and that it's not *easy*, but she really didn't enjoy doing stuff that was too easy. So...I'm supplementing with math drills, and I'll just find additional math problems for her on alternate days. We have the harcourt homeschool workbooks, which she enjoys doing. I'm trying to keep her on task/equivelant to the regular schools in case the economy flops and I'm forced to return to work on a full time basis.

 

good luck with it...it's tough!

I'm in kinda the same situation. I picked Saxon cuz that's what they used last year at the private Classical school they attended. I truly hate it, though, and they really complain. Of course, I may switch and find out they're just complainers:) But I hate how much time Saxon takes doing what they call "baby work." The Singapore does look tough, but my older son is so lazy unless he's challenged, I think it may be good. And my younger keeps saying "I don't want to use (whatever manipulative) I want to use my head" So I think he may like Singapore. I'm scared about how hard it looks, though.

My goal in this, my 1st year of hs, is to keep them ahead of public school.

ETA: do you think you can keep up w/public school not doing a lesson each day? I guess I'll have to order the books & see how long it takes us. We also have a lot of moaning & groaning. Sometimes the complaining takes longer than the task that is being complained about! Especially from ds6

Edited September 26, 2008 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[brehon]

I'm in kinda the same situation. I picked Saxon cuz that's what they used last year at the private Classical school they attended. I truly hate it, though, and they really complain. Of course, I may switch and find out they're just complainers:) But I hate how much time Saxon takes doing what they call "baby work." The Singapore does look tough, but my older son is so lazy unless he's challenged, I think it may be good. And my younger keeps saying "I don't want to use (whatever manipulative) I want to use my head" So I think he may like Singapore. I'm scared about how hard it looks, though.

My goal in this, my 1st year of hs, is to keep them ahead of public school.

ETA: do you think you can keep up w/public school not doing a lesson each day? I guess I'll have to order the books & see how long it takes us. We also have a lot of moaning & groaning. Sometimes the complaining takes longer than the task that is being complained about! Especially from ds6

 

To answer your previous question, I spend, um, 10-15 minutes teaching the lesson in Singapore to my son (7) and then he spends 20-30 minutes working the problems (sometimes with my help, sometimes not). I have CWP and IP, so mix those in with the workbook. For instance, here's my son's math schedule for this past Monday: Text - pp58-59; Wbk - Lessons 39-40 (this was 8 (?) problems); IP - pp38-39 (this was 5 or 6 problems, I believe).

 

In essence, I divide all the work for a particular unit up over however many days I think he'll need to understand the concept, usually a week, sometimes longer. He also works at least 1 math drill sheet of 40 problems. The math drill is easier than what he is working on. Gotta go - duty calls. I'll try to come back to this.

 

OK...I'm finally back (whew! too many calls over too short a period of time) Anywho, you don't want to hear about that, do you? I highly recommend seeing if your library has Knowing and Understanding Elementary Mathematics by Liping Ma. It's not a "how-to" manual of how to teach math; but, it has great insight into how and why one would want to teach conceptually, not simply algorhythmically (I'm almost positive I spelled that wrong, sorry...I've been up all night). It's a great read! Also Singapore now sells Home Instructor Guides geared especially for homeschools. I haven't seen or used them myself, but understand them to help the parent teach math conceptually. So, if you find yourself scratching your head (and I admit I have sometimes...sigh) this may be a good resource for you. Good Luck with Singapore!

Edited September 27, 2008 by brehon

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

To answer your previous question, I spend, um, 10-15 minutes teaching the lesson in Singapore to my son (7) and then he spends 20-30 minutes working the problems (sometimes with my help, sometimes not). I have CWP and IP, so mix those in with the workbook. For instance, here's my son's math schedule for this past Monday: Text - pp58-59; Wbk - Lessons 39-40 (this was 8 (?) problems); IP - pp38-39 (this was 5 or 6 problems, I believe).

 

In essence, I divide all the work for a particular unit up over however many days I think he'll need to understand the concept, usually a week, sometimes longer. He also works at least 1 math drill sheet of 40 problems. The math drill is easier than what he is working on. Gotta go - duty calls. I'll try to come back to this.

That makes sense to me. I think where we get bogged down with Saxon is the daggoned script and the kids hate doing the same "recitations" over & over. Even my dd4 who hangs out with us 2 mornings per week has all that calendar, skip counting & weather, etc., down pat. I would rather spend time teaching concepts. I did order the extra practice and may get the CWP once I see how its going. Thank you for taking time to answer. I really do appreciate it. I think we're going to take a break from math (except maybe some drills or word problems) until Singapore comes and then we'll all be challenged together!

[MgoBlue]

I think we'll be okay if we do one lesson a couple days a week. In 2a, there are 80 lessons. They don't take that long to do, but we're dealing with a kid that still has to think about how much 20-x is. I'm trying to teach her that she can use other methods of coming to the answer besides memorization...God gave you fingers...what is 10-x then add 10....Dr. Ma's book stresses that the Chinese teachers she interviewed discussed different methods of how to arrive at answers. One way may not work for every student...use what works for your particular child. I'm just beginning and still trying to figure it out.

 

And I guess I was just saying I don't set the timer and work on math for 60mi, then say STOP! I say...let's try to get through this and tomorrow we'll have an easy day. (with the Harcourt workbook or something else).

 

Again, I'm struggling here as well. But the kid is learning and being challenged...which was not occuring at the private first grade school.

 

Singapore starts multiplication soon. I'm taking the time to make sure we have the addition and subtraction completely down before we get too heavy into those concepts.

 

SWB in one of her cd's referred to math as a subject where you have to master the first level before you proceed to the next levels. My kid is mastering everything I give her...and darned quickly. But she's still kind of wavering/balking at 30 problems of adding/subtracting 2 and 3 digit numbers. She can do it but is intimidated and sometimes needs help. I don't want to push her too hard. I want to make math fun. I WANT her to master it and enjoy it.

 

Forgive the naivete of the question...but what are CWP and IP?

Paula

[langfam]

I haven't read any of the other replies.We left Saxon too. I had my son start in 2A but noticed he had trouble with some concepts. I did what Jenny (at the Singapore Math Forum)suggested and went back all the way to 1A. It only took him a little over a month to finish it, but he learned some important concepts that I feel are foundational to being really successful with later levels. He's now doing 1B, and I don't anticipate him taking much longer than 1A. Singapore just teaches such a different way of looking at and manipulating numbers. I feel these 2 months will be well spent ones. He really enjoys Singapore and because it mostly review for him, together with some new ways of dealing with numbers, he's gaining a lot of confidence. Something to think about.

[Chris in VA]

Well, I love Saxon, but we used Singapore in K and there sure is a lot to like about that program!

 

Just a little tip if you do go back farther or there's some questioning about the level by your oldest--Just remind him that Singapore is math from a different country (show him on the map if you want to), and that their levels are different from our grade levels. That explanation might make it easier for him to accept where he is.

 

Also, I'd just add that, while it's nice to have a goal about providing excellent instruction (based on your hubby's comment and yours about wanting them one grade ahead), I think it's important to compare less and individualize more. In other words, wherever your children are is where you should start. Allowing their needs to guide you in your curriculum choices and your pace in using that curriculum is more important, imo, than staying ahead of what they'd do in ps. You will find a different scope and sequence if you use WTM than you would in ps. Also, if you can just forget ps for a while, you may find you feel less pressure and find more contentment in homeschooling (your kids may feel that, too).

 

Enjoy your journey in Math Land!:D

[MgoBlue]

I had my son start in 2A but noticed he had trouble with some concepts. I did what Jenny (at the Singapore Math Forum)suggested and went back all the way to 1A. .

 

I've wondered if I should have gone back to singapore 1A like this. My dd seems to be getting everything so I'm hesitant to go back. Hmmm...food for thought.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Very good advice. I just orderd Singapore 1B & 2A, thinking thats where the kids should start. I did order the extra practice and tests, as well, thinking that I could give the older boy some work out of 1B to see if he has mastered it before jumping right in to 2A. What Singapore gives on the website is really not enough for me to tell if these concepts have been fully grasped by my ds. The placement test for 1A was very easy for my ds8 though, so I don't think we'll go all the way back.

Any suggestions with how to handle it if the older boy needs to start back with the younger on 1B? Mind you, he is in 3rd grade, while his younger brother is in only in 1st grade. I want to do what is best for both academically, but also emotionally.

Right now, I'm so tired of math I feel like just bagging the whole thing and giving them calculators! <--- not really, I just want them to not be miserable on this one subject.

[langfam]

You can always tear out the worksheets and put them in a folder, so they don't know what "level" they are doing and cover or tear off the front of the textbook.

[langfam]

When my son took the placement tests he placed in 2A, but when he started 2A it was obvious that he had trouble with certain concepts because he had never had to think in that way before. Jenny at Singapore Math explained that these had been covered in earlier levels.

 

Singapore is taught in such a way that concepts previously learned are used as a foundation for future concepts. At first, 1A looked too simple for him, but there were subtle ways of thinking of numbers that ds had never encountered before.

 

Also, they present the concepts in several different ways, so the child see them from all angles and it makes connections in their brains about how these concepts are related and can be used in all sorts of ways. It is a very subtle thing that is not obvious at first, but as the weeks go by, you'll find your child moving numbers around and manipulating them in ways they never did before. It's beautiful really to "see" your child understand something so simple in new and different ways.

 

I need to add that we use parts of Horizons as a drill supplement and I see ds using what he learns in Singapore there.

Edited September 27, 2008 by langfam

[Mommy22alyns]

Forgive the naivete of the question...but what are CWP and IP?

Paula

 

 

 

CWP = Challenging Word Problems

IP = Intensive Practice

 

Both are supplemental books by Singapore for extra practice. We use the IP book with 1A.

 

You may also see HIG, which is the Home Instructor's Guide - I was wavering on whether to buy this or not, but I went ahead and got it - HUGE help! Becca is really getting regrouping and working with numbers up to 20, and I think it's because I'm teaching it better by really using the HIG. :001_smile:

[MgoBlue]

Thanks for the translation mommy22alyns. I guess I'll be placing...yet another...(sigh) order. But it's important...and we want to succeed here!