advice to ds concerning Lukeion Latin 2b

[48820592]

My son is currently in 2b and the translations are killing his test scores.  Up to this point he has achieved A's, however, his last 3 tests scores (which are heavier on translations) have dropped each time (85,81,76).  He knows his vocab, clauses, etc; he does well on those parts of the test.  If he continues this trend, Latin 3 will certainly be disastrous. I'm wondering if there is a learning curve to doing the translations well---when I read his answers they seem very cumbersome and awkward.  I never had Latin so I can't help him.

 

Earlybird registration is right now--I'm really not sure what to do.

[rdj2027]

Being able to translate well takes a lot of practice; there really are two components to this, well three.  One is being solid on vocabulary and grammatical constructs in both Latin and English. The second one is the ability to recognize these constructs and the third is the ability to use them.  Knowing the vocabulary is self explanatory to a point but I still make my son do his homework with his dictionary right next to him.  Sometimes the correct vocabulary is not correct for a particular situation ( i.e. in 2B my son's translation was "a happy teacher of sheep", it should have been "fortunate master of sheep")  This is where an intuition for language is rather helpful.  He was stuck on certain translations of fortunatus magister and it simply did not occur to him that a happy teacher while theoretically correct was probably not the meaning the author intended.

My son does very well with memorizing and he could cite all the necessary grammatical constructs and how to translate them but it took a while to sink in for practical use.  For example, he knew exactly what an ablative absolute was but he didn't always recognize it in a text.  This simply takes practice, a lot of it.  I started with Latin in 5th grade and dare say it wasn't until I took my finals in 13th grade (different school system) until I truly understood most of them.

I believe that is one of the disadvantages of Lukeion, there simply is not enough time for some students to really internalize certain aspects of Latin.

It also helps to be able to put a translation into context and that often is not possible if you only have snippets of a text.  In addition to all of this, I always have the feeling that any grade below 90 is portrayed as a failing grade by Lukeion when it really is not.  These are demanding classes and were these PS classes most parents would not subscribe to the idea that a B points to a student not doing the work and being behind.  Don't get me wrong, I love Lukeion, my son loves Lukeion but we love the classics and they have been a staple in our house from an early age in some way or another.  I don't know that he would do as well as he does without the background and my ability to help him right then and there.

Back to the translations, in the beginning my son found it most helpful to really take a sentence apart and do it piece by piece.  You will see teachers speak against that tactic and say students need to be able to read Latin, not translate but in my experience in the beginning, students often do not have the fluency to do so and translations become overwhelming.  Let him start with the verb, then ask who is doing whatever is done, then look for adjectives of the subject because they are usually easy to find.  Then go on and see if there is a direct object, in other words look for an accusative, then look for the indirect object.  It also helps to have all sorts of tables easily visible while translating, for example all the different uses of the subjunctive.  We still have the consecutio temporum on a whiteboard above the desk.  

The other difficulty I see is that most teachers say they want translations that are in grammatical agreement with the original text and on the other hand they want translations that are stylistically pleasing in English.  This can be hard to do for a beginner and sometimes is a matter of opinion and/or interpretation. 

Last but not least, translating from English to Latin can be quite difficult. If this is where he makes most of his mistakes, Latin 3 is only Latin to English.

Latin 2 was by far the most difficult class, it does get easier.  

[yvonne]

My daughter's had more trouble this semester, too.  But her last two quizzes and last two homeworks have not been graded, yet. Are you sure your son is looking at the final grades on his translations? As Mrs. Barr always says, the grade is not final until she goes over them. Until then, the grade can be scarily low.

Edited February 16, 2016 by yvonne

[Reefgazer]

I am no Latin scholar, as DD and I are learning Latin together with MP's Forms series.  The bolded is is exactly what we do, and it has been very helpful to us.

Being able to translate well takes a lot of practice; there really are two components to this, well three.  One is being solid on vocabulary and grammatical constructs in both Latin and English. The second one is the ability to recognize these constructs and the third is the ability to use them.  Knowing the vocabulary is self explanatory to a point but I still make my son do his homework with his dictionary right next to him.  Sometimes the correct vocabulary is not correct for a particular situation ( i.e. in 2B my son's translation was "a happy teacher of sheep", it should have been "fortunate master of sheep")  This is where an intuition for language is rather helpful.  He was stuck on certain translations of fortunatus magister and it simply did not occur to him that a happy teacher while theoretically correct was probably not the meaning the author intended.

My son does very well with memorizing and he could cite all the necessary grammatical constructs and how to translate them but it took a while to sink in for practical use.  For example, he knew exactly what an ablative absolute was but he didn't always recognize it in a text.  This simply takes practice, a lot of it.  I started with Latin in 5th grade and dare say it wasn't until I took my finals in 13th grade (different school system) until I truly understood most of them.

I believe that is one of the disadvantages of Lukeion, there simply is not enough time for some students to really internalize certain aspects of Latin.

It also helps to be able to put a translation into context and that often is not possible if you only have snippets of a text.  In addition to all of this, I always have the feeling that any grade below 90 is portrayed as a failing grade by Lukeion when it really is not.  These are demanding classes and were these PS classes most parents would not subscribe to the idea that a B points to a student not doing the work and being behind.  Don't get me wrong, I love Lukeion, my son loves Lukeion but we love the classics and they have been a staple in our house from an early age in some way or another.  I don't know that he would do as well as he does without the background and my ability to help him right then and there.

Back to the translations, in the beginning my son found it most helpful to really take a sentence apart and do it piece by piece.  You will see teachers speak against that tactic and say students need to be able to read Latin, not translate but in my experience in the beginning, students often do not have the fluency to do so and translations become overwhelming.  Let him start with the verb, then ask who is doing whatever is done, then look for adjectives of the subject because they are usually easy to find.  Then go on and see if there is a direct object, in other words look for an accusative, then look for the indirect object.  It also helps to have all sorts of tables easily visible while translating, for example all the different uses of the subjunctive.  We still have the consecutio temporum on a whiteboard above the desk.  

The other difficulty I see is that most teachers say they want translations that are in grammatical agreement with the original text and on the other hand they want translations that are stylistically pleasing in English.  This can be hard to do for a beginner and sometimes is a matter of opinion and/or interpretation. 

Last but not least, translating from English to Latin can be quite difficult. If this is where he makes most of his mistakes, Latin 3 is only Latin to English.

Latin 2 was by far the most difficult class, it does get easier.  

 

[rlestina]

I would echo the advice to make sure those quizzes have been graded!  I don't know what section your son is in, but my daughter is in 2b, and her last 2 quizzes have not yet been graded by Ms. Barr.  Actually, they have only done 4 quizzes, not counting the PSQ, and the 2nd quiz had no free translations, only multiple choice. 

 

I know I frequently get confused when I look at things I think were graded, and then realize they weren't yet.  So maybe that's your problem, or at least part of it?

[48820592]

Being able to translate well takes a lot of practice; there really are two components to this, well three.  One is being solid on vocabulary and grammatical constructs in both Latin and English. The second one is the ability to recognize these constructs and the third is the ability to use them.  Knowing the vocabulary is self explanatory to a point but I still make my son do his homework with his dictionary right next to him.  Sometimes the correct vocabulary is not correct for a particular situation ( i.e. in 2B my son's translation was "a happy teacher of sheep", it should have been "fortunate master of sheep")  This is where an intuition for language is rather helpful.  He was stuck on certain translations of fortunatus magister and it simply did not occur to him that a happy teacher while theoretically correct was probably not the meaning the author intended.

My son does very well with memorizing and he could cite all the necessary grammatical constructs and how to translate them but it took a while to sink in for practical use.  For example, he knew exactly what an ablative absolute was but he didn't always recognize it in a text.  This simply takes practice, a lot of it.  I started with Latin in 5th grade and dare say it wasn't until I took my finals in 13th grade (different school system) until I truly understood most of them.

I believe that is one of the disadvantages of Lukeion, there simply is not enough time for some students to really internalize certain aspects of Latin.

It also helps to be able to put a translation into context and that often is not possible if you only have snippets of a text.  In addition to all of this, I always have the feeling that any grade below 90 is portrayed as a failing grade by Lukeion when it really is not.  These are demanding classes and were these PS classes most parents would not subscribe to the idea that a B points to a student not doing the work and being behind.  Don't get me wrong, I love Lukeion, my son loves Lukeion but we love the classics and they have been a staple in our house from an early age in some way or another.  I don't know that he would do as well as he does without the background and my ability to help him right then and there.

Back to the translations, in the beginning my son found it most helpful to really take a sentence apart and do it piece by piece.  You will see teachers speak against that tactic and say students need to be able to read Latin, not translate but in my experience in the beginning, students often do not have the fluency to do so and translations become overwhelming.  Let him start with the verb, then ask who is doing whatever is done, then look for adjectives of the subject because they are usually easy to find.  Then go on and see if there is a direct object, in other words look for an accusative, then look for the indirect object.  It also helps to have all sorts of tables easily visible while translating, for example all the different uses of the subjunctive.  We still have the consecutio temporum on a whiteboard above the desk.  

The other difficulty I see is that most teachers say they want translations that are in grammatical agreement with the original text and on the other hand they want translations that are stylistically pleasing in English.  This can be hard to do for a beginner and sometimes is a matter of opinion and/or interpretation. 

Last but not least, translating from English to Latin can be quite difficult. If this is where he makes most of his mistakes, Latin 3 is only Latin to English.

Latin 2 was by far the most difficult class, it does get easier.  

 

 

Thank you so much for this---it really is encouraging.  I wish I knew Latin so I could figure out how to help him. I will let him read this and the tactic you recommend.

 

One of the reasons I like Lukeion is the high standards--I keep telling myself that he learns more listening to Mrs. Barr for 1 hour/week than he probably would if he was in a Latin class in a school going to class everyday.

Edited February 18, 2016 by 48820592

[G5052]

Thank you so much for this---it really is encouraging.  I wish I knew Latin so I could figure out how to help him. I will let him read this and the tactic you recommend.

 

One of the reasons I like Lukeion is the high standards--I keep telling myself that he learns more listening to Mrs. Barr for 1 hour/week than he probably would if he was in a Latin class in a school going to class everyday.

 

I offered testing with the National Latin Exam for several years for friends with kids in public school in addition to other homeschooling families and my own, so all the scores came to me. So I knew both what they were doing for Latin and what the results on that test were. The local public school Latin teacher actually does a good job, but she doesn't do the NLE because of block scheduling and mixes in a lot of cultural extras to keep them motivated. So less focused and academic, and only through Latin 3.

 

Not that the NLE is the final story, but here's the rankings based on curriculum from my very unscientific sample:

 

1. Lukeion online

2. VPSA online

3. Public school (Cambridge)

4. Classical Conversations with additional study (Henle)

5. Classical Conversations with no additional study (Henle)

 

Goals do vary, and I appreciate that. One of mine didn't go to Lukeion and still has medalled every year. It was a great fit for my older, Latin-loving one though.