Spelling for 8yo struggling reader

[Jenn in CA]

My 8yo (2nd grade) goes to Scottish Rite for dyslexia therapy, and we do Barton at home (level 3, just started lesson 10). She is not really a reader yet. She could read a Bob book on her own, but say, Little Bear, she would guess/substitute many longer words. She rarely to never picks up something to read, or even tries to read a sign or paper laying around, so I think it's still hard for her.

 

Well, we're doing Barton, and I'm realizing it's so much about spelling at this point. We finished Milk Truck and Catch Lunch rules. We just started contractions. Contractions are completely blowing her mind. The whole idea even of a contraction, there's a lot to process. I don't mind going slow, but I feel like we spend all our time on spelling.... but she never writes anything outside of Barton. We homeschool so I don't make her do copywork, writing, anything like that. She also never chooses to write anything, like pretend grocery lists, imaginary letters, etc.

 

I would understand if she went to school and did a lot of writing, that we should work on spelling. I dropped the sight word spelling words a long time ago because they did not stick. Even "of" and "a" did not stick. She can read them, but she can't consistently spell them. 

 

So, I'm wondering why put all this time into spelling, when she really needs (and maybe even wants) to learn to read? And, I can't imagine that the Milk Truck and Catch Lunch rules are actually going to be retained for the next ______ years until she needs/wants to use them. I'm thinking we're gonna have to go thru it all again when she's older to learn all the rules.

 

My 4 bio kids were very quick learners. I did not do spelling with them. Not that they were all natural spellers, but they eventually got it when they were older, one was a teen before he was a good speller. My 10yo is not a natural speller, but I just correct her and she intuits the rules. IOW I'm already in the "less formal spelling" camp to begin with. Now, I do realize this is not going to happen w/my 8yo. But it seems like her time would be better spent putting off spelling for a couple/few years. Is there a compelling reason for me to work on spelling w/her now? 

 

She also has auditory processing issues, and expressive language issues. She often cannot think of the correct word, can't remember names/places, her vocab is probably fine for her age but a lot of the words we read and spell in Barton just have no meaning for her, such as "winch" and "quench". I wanted to poke my eyes out trying to explain the difference between "your" and "you're". Or that "you've" is a word. I mean, when does she ever think of that as a word? Also "a" vs. "an", she literally did not believe me that we should say *an* apple because she says *uh* apple. [note to self to work on that...]

 

Sorry, getting carried away. Any ideas or advice? Should I switch to something else that is just reading?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Jenn in CA

[PeterPan]

Well you know we're going to empower you to do what your gut is telling you...  But yes, if you want to hear it from someone, yes there are people on the planet who SKIP the spelling in Barton.  The world does not end.  Some kids, for reasons particular to their situation, should NOT do all the components of Barton at once, just because Barton put them in there.  

 

You are hereby empowered to use your editorial judgment and SKIP those things.  I am for now.  Ds has dysgraphia, and to tie his ability to write/spell with his reading acquisition is absurd.  He's also young for target age and yes has challenges with comprehension.  For him, the time is better spent using extra materials to work on his comprehension, and we'll go back to work on the spelling portions of the lessons later.

 

And no, the funky names make no sense to me, nor my son.  None at all.  You can delete those from your brain too if they're not helping.  Apparently they make sense to some people.  Just wave your fairy wand and POOF the things you don't need.   :D

 

PS.  I *do* think it's reasonable to have them spell some of the words with tiles.  That is in part of the lesson, where it says spell words with tiles.  But once it switches over and wants them to write on a page, we just JUMP all that.  That's in the *someday that will be what we need to do* category in our house.  And, my guess is we'll be typing them.  I just we just really have to give ourselves permission like that to customize the course for unique situations.  Barton was giving ALL the tools to an open the book and use it and get it done market.  Some kids need more customizing.  :)

Edited January 14, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Ottakee]

We loved loved loved Apples and Pears spelling. Very easy to use. We often did 1/2 level (lesson) a day as they can be long. I would start with level A even if it is quite easy for her.

 

I also liked their Dancing Bears reading but my favorite early on was the I See Sam readers. www.iseesam.com or www.3rsplus.com. you can even get the first 2 sets inline free in PDF to print out. They don't look like.much but the process behind them is very good.

[Jenn in CA]

OhE, thank you for the permission. :)

 

Ottakee, is I See Sam for struggling readers/dyslexics? I like the looks of it, but I hate to switch yet again.

 

One thing that's hard for me about Barton is reading 3-letter blends (and blends are extremely hard for dd) but not -er or silent E yet. So many books for early readers are still inaccessible for her. I like that she could do more stories with iseesam.

[OneStepAtATime]

I know this must be incredibly frustrating for both of you.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  DD needed the writing and the spelling tied directly to the rest of the lesson to make the reading gel but she started this program at 12, not 8.  I don't know that she would have been able to do a lot of the spelling stuff at 8.  And each child is different.  DS has not done as well with this program, even though he actually picks up the rules much faster than DD.  Different kid.  Different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I agree with OhE, tweak this program to your child's needs.  Customize it in a way that works for your particular situation and child.  Also, though, you might consider that this program isn't going to be a good fit for your child.  I am wondering if something closer to High Noon might work?  Barton has been a huge help for a lot of people but as with anything else there is no one size fits all program.  Different kids have different strengths and weaknesses.  

 

I can't remember.  Have you mentioned on another thread what evaluations your child has had?

[Jenn in CA]

I know this must be incredibly frustrating for both of you. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: DD needed the writing and the spelling tied directly to the rest of the lesson to make the reading gel but she started this program at 12, not 8. I don't know that she would have been able to do a lot of the spelling stuff at 8. And each child is different. DS has not done as well with this program, even though he actually picks up the rules much faster than DD. Different kid. Different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I agree with OhE, tweak this program to your child's needs. Customize it in a way that works for your particular situation and child. Also, though, you might consider that this program isn't going to be a good fit for your child. I am wondering if something closer to High Noon might work? Barton has been a huge help for a lot of people but as with anything else there is no one size fits all program. Different kids have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I can't remember. Have you mentioned on another thread what evaluations your child has had?

Evals: Scottish rite did a bunch and she got a dyslexic profile.

Auditory processing, she failed the background noise part, but passed with low scores on the rest. It wasn't a super comprehensive test imo.

 

I'll look at High Noon. Thanks for the hugs. I think dd's age is a lot of the issue with Barton. And she has improved a lot since we started. It just feels very cumbersome and more than we need at this point.

[PeterPan]

The I See Sam books are available as free pdfs.  They would be fine practice, but they will not replace what you're doing in Barton.  My ds would read through the books and then have no clue what the words were a minute later.  

 

Barton doesn't recommend ANY outside reading until after you finish Barton 4 I think.  You're not there yet, which is why nothing is clicking.  I suggest you put your energy firmly into Barton, proceed forward, use the supplemental readers for your Barton level, and just let it work out.  It will.

 

The APD background noise issue is actually THE defining issue.  It's time to go get her diagnosed.  Sometimes there are some therapy things they can do, like FFW, and they might have some treatment options for you.  You can wear an FM system, try hearing aids, etc.  I've even wondered about some low cost simple options for people, like whether you could rig the equivalent of an FM system using a ipod.  I really don't know, I'm just saying these options are out there.  If you have a university that specializes in APD, they could do the testing for you.  

 

Did she do LIPS?  Did she do the Barton pre-test before you started?  How did she do with that?  That's just kind of interesting that she's got APD but doing well.  You've clearly been working hard with her!  And that's another reason, I think, to use your judgment.  

[Ottakee]

OhE, thank you for the permission. :)

 

Ottakee, is I See Sam for struggling readers/dyslexics? I like the looks of it, but I hate to switch yet again.

 

One thing that's hard for me about Barton is reading 3-letter blends (and blends are extremely hard for dd) but not -er or silent E yet. So many books for early readers are still inaccessible for her. I like that she could do more stories with iseesam.

First disclaimer......I have NEVER seen or used Barton at all....so other ladies here are way more in the know on that one.

 

My thought is she is 8.  She wants success soon.  What if you switched to the I See Sam readers for 6 months, maybe adding in Dancing Bears/Bear Necessity for added skill practice and then started Apples and Pears for spelling.

 

Then after 6 months if things are not progressing well, go back to the Barton since she seems to be (from what I have heard here.....again never having seen it in person) on the young side for it.

 

i just know from personal experience how effective the I See Sam books were for getting my kids reading and the Apples and Pears beat out anything else I have ever seen/tried.

[Joyful Journeys]

I just want to chime in as a mom with an 8 yr old that when she was 6 was frustrated with the incredibly slow pace of AAR and had a child wanting to read more "real" stories. We moved to an OG program, she progressed fine so I thought and boom hit a wall.

 

She can read things like Frog and Toad, but isolate those words outside that story and she is lost. Same with her readers. I'm finding now, that since she didn't pass the Barton pre test 2 yrs into an OG program, that she in fact needed that super slow incremental approach. Might she still have issues if I hadn't switched? Maybe, no dx yet so I can't say. But if I had Barton in my hands already, I would trust the process. There's no worse feeling than feeling like you are starting completely over.

[Jenn in CA]

I wanted to mention the auditory processing test scores. They did SCAN-C. She was in the 27th %ile, which is the very low end of normal, so not enough to get APD diagnosis. The only section she failed was auditory figure-ground. The rest were 50-60th %ile.

 

They did a dichotic digits test, pitch pattern sequence test, and random gap detection test. Again, borderline to normal, with some strange inconsistencies which I would guess were from her spacing out/not sure exactly what to do/trying to guess what the "right" answer should be. The dr. recommended having her retested in 12-18 mo to make sure she's progressing normally.

 

So that's that. I was just re-reading the report and thinking, that I think if I really wanted therapy, they would do it for me. It's the university clinic, so relatively inexpensive?? --$400/semester for 1x/wk. Anybody have any thoughts about that?

As to the spelling, I think my next step will be to talk to the SLP at Scottish Rite and see what her opinion is... and then soldier on w/Barton, not worrying about mastery of the spelling, and perhaps supplementing w/the I See Sam readers as time permits. I feel so wishy-washy. But today was a pretty good Barton day. 

 

OhE, you asked about LiPS. She did fail the Barton screening. But I went ahead w/Barton anyway. 1+ yrs into Barton, last summer, I decided to go back to LiPS, and it did help w/a couple sounds she was having trouble with, but by then she could already do the colored square task w/CVC, like SB says, so I did not see the point.... I was actually thinking maybe I should revisit LiPS to go farther with it, and teach her to read w/that instead of Barton. But man, those vowels in LiPS are just mind-boggling. 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Jenn, my dd is borderline on the SCAN3, so I get what you're saying.  Did you have a psych eval to consider ADHD?  That's my dd's official label, and I've talked with an audiologist who said their experience with before and after testing was that some kids's scores would improve (on the SCAN3) with the ADHD meds.  

 

I think the benefit to you at this point of LIPS is making things *visual* that she's having trouble sorting out auditorally.  

 

Ok, you know what I'm going to say on the vowel circle.  You can do this babes.  :D  This is NOT that hard, and it's NOT mind-boggling.  Did you look on youtube?  I could sit you down for 3 minutes and you'd go WOW, what was I worried about!  :)   Seriously.  Get over that hump and get back to it.  I think the LIPS instructions suggest that you start with *1* sound from each card.  It doesn't matter which sound.  The point of the vowel circle is to show the ORDERLINESS of how they're produced in the mouth.  Not random, not evolved, not mysterious.  Orderly.  

 

So start with /E/.  I know their notation is funky.  They put it as "ee" because that's how you'll spell it.  Say "eeeeeeeee" and hold it.  Put your thumb and pointer finger into your mustache area and feel the retraction, what they call the SMILE.  I call them "smilies" with my ds, because they're vowels with retraction.  You can touch your mustache area with your hand and FEEL the retraction.  Smilies.  Now put your hand under your jaw.  Where is your jaw?  All the way up!  Bam, done.  So the two components you're looking for with every vowel are retraction/rounding and jaw drop.  That's IT.  You CAN understand this.

 

So now put your hand under your jaw and just read through the vowel circle.  Just chant it.  Oh, I confess, I change the order on a couple because I don't like theirs.  It doesn't matter.  I'm WAY magical and I sprinkle magic fairy dust anywhere I think it's better for us.  ;)  So now we chant, only feeling the jaw drop, hand under jaw.  

 

E, i, A, e, a u.

 

Did you feel your jaw dropping?  Do it again till it makes sense to you.

 

Now go to the bottom of vowel circle.  Say /o/ as in Bob.  /o/.  Put your hand under your jaw.  Where is it?  That's right, your jaw has now dropped all the way to the bottom!  That's why /o/ is at the bottom of the vowel circle!  Now look with a mirror.  What are your lips doing?  Retraction/smilies?  Nope.  Just open.  So they're open with a jaw drop.  Not hard.  

 

Last thing.  Go to the right of the vowel circle and we're going to say /oo/ as in boot.  Feel your face with your hands.  Any smilies/retraction?  Nope!  Take your fingers and cup your lips, like you're petting a cat ear.  Feel the rounding?  There, that's rounding.  Make any silly name you want.  I think we called them Rounders, whatever floats your boat.  Apply the fairy dust liberally.

 

At this point you're noticing there are 3 vowels listed for rounders, and you're like WHY are they going back UP the vowel circle? Well, if the Smilies were going DOWN the vowel circle as the jaw dropped DOWN, then I think you'll find, as you hold your hand under the jaw, that the jaw goes UP slightly with these vowels.  Play with it, it's subtle.

 

Ok, now for the fun ones, Sliders!!!  Love sliders, because now we finally get interesting.  Sliders are verbal addition.  We're going to ADD TOGETHER motions into one smooth phonemic creation.  It's fun!  But to FEEL the addition, we're going to have to SLOW IT DOWN.  So when I taught it to ds, I did it as a mystery.  Like what would happen if I took a Rounder (show rounder tile) and added to it a Smilie (place beside Rounder) in that order?  Let's try to say it slowly and FEEL what happens!  

 

So then, exactly as your vowel chart predicts, you get /oy/.  But this is NOT MYSTERIOUS!  The actual speech production is this way, and we can slow it down and feel it!

 

Now the fun stuff.  You only want to teach a couple sounds at a time, and you want them to be far enough apart to be easily distinguishable.  This is not a place to race!  Slow down and spend a few weeks on it.  Nuts, this would be a really swanky time to work on CVC spelling and going back through your Barton 2 spelling.  Really take your time and slow down and let this gel.

 

What I did, and this is just me, is I had a large set of magnetic letters.  It was from Lakeshore Learning, but whatever you've got.  You'll need multiples of a lot of letters to do this.  I set up every LIPS face and had EVERY SPELLING of it.  So like under the sliders, we had oi and oy.  That kind of thing.  We did the same thing for consonants.  I think it's a really valuable exercise, and I know I took pictures.  I can try to find them.  Uh no, they're not on Flickr.  I'll see if I can track them down.  We used a pirate playmobil figure for the r-controlled vowels.  We used a lonely looking little playmobil girl figure (think lost, orphan, all alone) to stand for the Lonelies, the phonograms that didn't have LIPS faces to go under.  

 

We spent a LOT of time organizing his brain this way.  It basically took an hour to lay out all the tiles and letters, by the time it was complete.  We would go tiles to letters, then remove the letters, saying the sounds and writing them in a salt tray.  We use 17X20 magnetic whiteboards you can buy at Target.  Board Dudes is the brand I'm using.  That's a size that can fit on the table in front of us and hold everything.  

 

Well play with it.  You CAN understand this.  You're trying to make the sounds visual and tactile, since her auditory pathway is compromised.  It's worth the effort.  You'll improve her handwriting, her discrimination, her working memory, everything, just by milking this step.  You don't need to LEAVE Barton.  You just go back to LIPS and nail the thought process and methodology, so you can carry LIPS *forward* into Barton.  They're extremely strong together.

 

I'll go look for pictures.  They were super cute.  :D

[PeterPan]

I was wrong.  We were using a a scroungy old grey magnetic board, but it's about the same size as our usual 17X20 magnetic whiteboards.  I must not have liked the gloss of the white or something.  Anyways, I found a couple pics and threw them onto Flickr.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHsks5NtLw

 

I never left a break between LIPS and Barton.  I took the LIPS concepts and immediately applied them to written.  Well, I say immediately.  I took a new concept and did it the way LIPS said (with faces), bridged it into Barton with the blank tiles, then completed it by transferring it over to the written letters.  That was the stretch step.  

 

I'm saying that even if you go back into LIPS, you can really kick it up and take it farther, doing each step that you consider with more analysis and deeper application.  

Edited January 16, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Btw, why isn't Scottish Rite taking care of all this?  How often are they seeing her?  Is it free?  Would they ramp up and do more?  Because, personally, I would *think* it would be preferable to have ONE PERSON going all the way with the tutoring, maybe even 4-5 days a week, rather than this split thing of one method, one person, another method, another person.  I'd start talking with them and get coordinated.  If they're trying to help you and not offering enough, then see if they'll step up what they're offering.  If the person isn't completely trained or doesn't have enough tools, then it's their opportunity to learn more!  I wouldn't accept half care from a place that's trying to help you, because to me that's short-circuiting that tutor's learning process.

Edited January 16, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Jenn in CA]

Btw, why isn't Scottish Rite taking care of all this? How often are they seeing her? Is it free? Would they ramp up and do more? Because, personally, I would *think* it would be preferable to have ONE PERSON going all the way with the tutoring, maybe even 4-5 days a week, rather than this split thing of one method, one person, another method, another person. I'd start talking with them and get coordinated. If they're trying to help you and not offering enough, then see if they'll step up what they're offering. If the person isn't completely trained or doesn't have enough tools, then it's their opportunity to learn more! I wouldn't accept half care from a place that's trying to help you, because to me that's short-circuiting that tutor's learning process.

That's a good point about Scottish rite. I will be talking to our therapist soon. I don't think they can do more than once/week but it would be great to coordinate.

Jenn, my dd is borderline on the SCAN3, so I get what you're saying. Did you have a psych eval to consider ADHD? That's my dd's official label, and I've talked with an audiologist who said their experience with before and after testing was that some kids's scores would improve (on the SCAN3) with the ADHD meds.

 

I think the benefit to you at this point of LIPS is making things *visual* that she's having trouble sorting out auditorally.

 

Ok, you know what I'm going to say on the vowel circle. You can do this babes. :D This is NOT that hard, and it's NOT mind-boggling. Did you look on youtube? I could sit you down for 3 minutes and you'd go WOW, what was I worried about! :) Seriously. Get over that hump and get back to it. I think the LIPS instructions suggest that you start with *1* sound from each card. It doesn't matter which sound. The point of the vowel circle is to show the ORDERLINESS of how they're produced in the mouth. Not random, not evolved, not mysterious. Orderly.

 

So start with /E/. I know their notation is funky. They put it as "ee" because that's how you'll spell it. Say "eeeeeeeee" and hold it. Put your thumb and pointer finger into your mustache area and feel the retraction, what they call the SMILE. I call them "smilies" with my ds, because they're vowels with retraction. You can touch your mustache area with your hand and FEEL the retraction. Smilies. Now put your hand under your jaw. Where is your jaw? All the way up! Bam, done. So the two components you're looking for with every vowel are retraction/rounding and jaw drop. That's IT. You CAN understand this.

 

So now put your hand under your jaw and just read through the vowel circle. Just chant it. Oh, I confess, I change the order on a couple because I don't like theirs. It doesn't matter. I'm WAY magical and I sprinkle magic fairy dust anywhere I think it's better for us. ;) So now we chant, only feeling the jaw drop, hand under jaw.

 

E, i, A, e, a u.

 

Did you feel your jaw dropping? Do it again till it makes sense to you.

 

Now go to the bottom of vowel circle. Say /o/ as in Bob. /o/. Put your hand under your jaw. Where is it? That's right, your jaw has now dropped all the way to the bottom! That's why /o/ is at the bottom of the vowel circle! Now look with a mirror. What are your lips doing? Retraction/smilies? Nope. Just open. So they're open with a jaw drop. Not hard.

 

Last thing. Go to the right of the vowel circle and we're going to say /oo/ as in boot. Feel your face with your hands. Any smilies/retraction? Nope! Take your fingers and cup your lips, like you're petting a cat ear. Feel the rounding? There, that's rounding. Make any silly name you want. I think we called them Rounders, whatever floats your boat. Apply the fairy dust liberally.

 

At this point you're noticing there are 3 vowels listed for rounders, and you're like WHY are they going back UP the vowel circle? Well, if the Smilies were going DOWN the vowel circle as the jaw dropped DOWN, then I think you'll find, as you hold your hand under the jaw, that the jaw goes UP slightly with these vowels. Play with it, it's subtle.

 

Ok, now for the fun ones, Sliders!!! Love sliders, because now we finally get interesting. Sliders are verbal addition. We're going to ADD TOGETHER motions into one smooth phonemic creation. It's fun! But to FEEL the addition, we're going to have to SLOW IT DOWN. So when I taught it to ds, I did it as a mystery. Like what would happen if I took a Rounder (show rounder tile) and added to it a Smilie (place beside Rounder) in that order? Let's try to say it slowly and FEEL what happens!

 

So then, exactly as your vowel chart predicts, you get /oy/. But this is NOT MYSTERIOUS! The actual speech production is this way, and we can slow it down and feel it!

 

Now the fun stuff. You only want to teach a couple sounds at a time, and you want them to be far enough apart to be easily distinguishable. This is not a place to race! Slow down and spend a few weeks on it. Nuts, this would be a really swanky time to work on CVC spelling and going back through your Barton 2 spelling. Really take your time and slow down and let this gel.

 

What I did, and this is just me, is I had a large set of magnetic letters. It was from Lakeshore Learning, but whatever you've got. You'll need multiples of a lot of letters to do this. I set up every LIPS face and had EVERY SPELLING of it. So like under the sliders, we had oi and oy. That kind of thing. We did the same thing for consonants. I think it's a really valuable exercise, and I know I took pictures. I can try to find them. Uh no, they're not on Flickr. I'll see if I can track them down. We used a pirate playmobil figure for the r-controlled vowels. We used a lonely looking little playmobil girl figure (think lost, orphan, all alone) to stand for the Lonelies, the phonograms that didn't have LIPS faces to go under.

 

We spent a LOT of time organizing his brain this way. It basically took an hour to lay out all the tiles and letters, by the time it was complete. We would go tiles to letters, then remove the letters, saying the sounds and writing them in a salt tray. We use 17X20 magnetic whiteboards you can buy at Target. Board Dudes is the brand I'm using. That's a size that can fit on the table in front of us and hold everything.

 

Well play with it. You CAN understand this. You're trying to make the sounds visual and tactile, since her auditory pathway is compromised. It's worth the effort. You'll improve her handwriting, her discrimination, her working memory, everything, just by milking this step. You don't need to LEAVE Barton. You just go back to LIPS and nail the thought process and methodology, so you can carry LIPS *forward* into Barton. They're extremely strong together.

 

I'll go look for pictures. They were super cute. :D