Need Some Advice On 9th Grade English

[Reefgazer]

Here is the situation with DD, who will be in 9th grade next year (and a bit on the young side for 9th):

 

DD came out of public school in 5th grade, where she was an "A" student.  She had minor deficiencies in arithmetic, and she hadn't received any effective training in grammar, punctuation, or spelling.  We have worked to remedy those deficiencies in middle school, and she is now an excellent math student, so math is not a concern of mine.  My concern is English.  She is an excellent reader and can grasp and discuss high school literature in a mature and insightful way.  She is a good writer in the sense that she can form a solid thesis and construct an organized paper that defends her thesis decently.  Her deficiencies fall into 2 categories:

 

1.  Spelling:  She has slowly improved in middle school, but she is still not a great speller and has many spelling mistakes in her papers.  Her spelling work is consistently good, and her grades in spelling are all "A".  But she doesn't apply her spelling lessons to her writing.  We are using Rod and Staff for spelling, behind grade level (6th grade spelling book).  We are in the 6th grade spelling book because we did no spelling (yes, I know, me bad) in 6th grade and started spelling with the 5th grade book in 7th grade because that's where she landed in placement. 

 

2.  Punctuation:  This is really not good; she puts random commas all over hell's half acre, despite working on Editor In Chief and 6th grade Rod and Staff English.  She is in the 6th grade English book because I made a detour into curriculum that wasn't that effective for her in 6th, and we also took the first half of this year to explore Excavating English instead of the more dry Rod and Staff.  She gets "A" grades on all the Rod and Staff tests, but doesn't seem to apply the punctuation lessons she learns to her papers.  

 

My original intent was to get both kids through Rod and Staff English 8 and then stop formal grammar and spelling lessons.  DS is on track for that; DD is not.  My questions about English:  Should I continue spelling at her current pace (she will be in R+S spelling 7 next year) in high school?  I am concerned that spelling will take time away from literature and writing, but I am antsy over her weak spelling skills .  Should I continue to plug away in Rod and Staff English (she will be in English 7 next year) for the sake of grammar and punctuation training?  I am OK with her grammar level, but the punctuation is another story entirely and I am uncomfortable dropping punctuation lessons because she is still weak on that.  OTOH, I don't want her English lessons in high school to revolve around what should be elementary-middle school lessons, at the expense of literature and writing.  Any advice from those who have BTDT?

 

 

 

[daveswife]

I'd be inclined to drop the formal spelling. I think that editing her own work will help her to internalize the spelling and punctuation.

[Matryoshka]

I know people say MCT isn't strong on mechanics.... but I really think the way it presents punctuation as being a function of grammar (this is even a title of some of the grammar exercises) really shows where to use those commas.  The very simple way it handles punctuation between phrases/clauses: I,ccI / I;I / D,I / ID handles a huge part of it.  Starting in Paragraph Town and continuing up into the Magic Lens have more complex mechanics, but all as a function of the grammar of the sentence.  It really helps to internalize why we use punctuation in one place and not another (and why one kind and not another). 

 

Another book we used that was fun and didn't take much time was Punctuation Puzzlers from Critical Thinking Press.  They have two books at each level, one Commas and More and the other about Run-On Sentences.  They have silly illustrations to show how changing the punctuation can change the whole meaning of the sentence.  You have to change the punctuation to match the silly (or not) picture, sometimes to change it three different ways to match three different pictures.  I used to give the kids a page a week from each book, and then we'd get through about two books a year.

 

I don't know what to say about spelling.  My most horrid speller (who also could do fine on tests but not apply it) has miraculously become much, much better (she's in 9th now).  I have no idea how, so I'm no help.  I gave up spelling lists a few years back, so that wasn't it.  It also wasn't reading a lot, unless it was online, as I can barely get the kid to read anything in print..

 

I bought Spelling Wisdom at one point (which is studied dictation) in the thought that it was spelling in context - maybe that could help?  We didn't end up sticking with it, but mostly out of just not getting to it, it still could be a good idea for this problem?

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, my dad was awful at spelling and punctuation.  He started dating my mom to get help with his college English classes.   :lol:   He still did very well in college and went on to a very successful career (and got a great wife in the process).

 

Honestly, I agree with others that what might help more is teaching her how to edit her own papers.  You could also look at support systems like the Ginger software (sometimes on sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op) and the latest version of Dragon Speak and teaching her how to use a spell checker.  Does she type?  The Touch-type Read and Spell program might help and it is also sometimes on sale for a huge discount through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.

[Faithr]

Copy work and having her edit her own writing will help.  For some it takes longer than others.  Ask any high school English teacher, most kids are still fine tuning mechanics and spelling.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Faithr

[Reefgazer]

She claims she does, but it doesn't look like it, frankly.

Does she edit her spelling as part of the writing process?

 

[Harriet Vane]

For a kid who is having trouble integrating spelling and punctuation into real paragraphs, most formal spelling or grammar programs will help only marginally because the exercises do not require the student to think of those skills on the fly while writing.

 

Proofreading can help.

 

Dictation can help a lot, especially with punctuation issues. Most kids associate letters with sounds, right? But many kids struggle to associate punctuation marks either with the absence of sound (pauses for commas or periods) or with the quality of sound (raising the voice indicates a question, etc.). So, just like we taught our kids to associate letters with sounds when they were young, dictation gives them practice for filling in the correct marks for pauses or for specific sound inflections.

 

It is similar to marking music with both notes AND rests. Every beat has a mark to correspond with the sound or lack thereof.

 

Dictation will also help with spelling. 

 

If you continue a spelling program, it is important to not only memorize the words (the appearance of the correctly spelled word), but also include those words in more extensive proofreading in which the words are spelled correctly sometimes and incorrectly other times. I have not found a program that does this--I usually have to write this sort of exercise myself.

 

 

[Faithr]

If she doesn't edit her own work well, you should edit it alongside her.

[Chrysalis Academy]

For punctuation, and grammar in general, I will plug the book Shannon is using right now (8th grade): The Best Grammar Workbook Ever! which is doing a very great job of filling in the holes and clarifying all the rules, for punctuation, usage, etc. It's not a long book, and she uses it completely on her own, and really enjoys it - the lessons are direct, pithy, and clear, and there is an exercise for each one and a test at the end of each chapter.  Your dd could even run through it now and/or over the summer and be done before 9th grade even starts - that's our goal, that grammar not need to be a formal subject in 9th. I think it's going to work!

[Reefgazer]

This is what I am hoping would be the smart move, but I wanted to get opinions on this lest I leave her adrift with poor spelling in high school.

I'd be inclined to drop the formal spelling. I think that editing her own work will help her to internalize the spelling and punctuation.

 

[Reefgazer]

This is what we used in 6th grade before we switched to R+S, so I know what you mean by that program integrating grammar and punctuation.  I agree that MCT does a great job of integrating the two.  We both liked the program and she understood those lessons and could repeat them back.  But when the lessons didn't transfer to her writing, I abandoned the program for R+S, thinking the explicit lessons would help her apply the principles to her own writing.  But that hasn't worked, either.  Today she told me the reason she doesn't apply the R+S lessons to her own writing is that in R+S, the exercises tell her exactly what she is looking for and must do, and that she has trouble finding the errors and problems in her own writing because no one points them out explicitly.  I see that this is the case, because when I point out *where* the error is, she can usually find *what* the error is and correct it.  Same thing with Editor-In-Chief; if she misses where the error is and I point out which line the error is on, she can correct it.

 

At this point, I am hesitant to pick up MCT again because I was hoping to focus on literature and writing instead of grammar for high school.  I also have an issue with MCT writing at the upper level because I don't like his "copy an entire paragraph as part of an essay and quote it" writing style.

 

I'll have to take a look at Punctuation Puzzlers.  Do you think it would complement Editor-In-Chief, or should I use that in addition to EIC, or as a replacement for EIC?

 

 

I know people say MCT isn't strong on mechanics.... but I really think the way it presents punctuation as being a function of grammar (this is even a title of some of the grammar exercises) really shows where to use those commas.  The very simple way it handles punctuation between phrases/clauses: I,ccI / I;I / D,I / ID handles a huge part of it.  Starting in Paragraph Town and continuing up into the Magic Lens have more complex mechanics, but all as a function of the grammar of the sentence.  It really helps to internalize why we use punctuation in one place and not another (and why one kind and not another). 

 

Another book we used that was fun and didn't take much time was Punctuation Puzzlers from Critical Thinking Press.  They have two books at each level, one Commas and More and the other about Run-On Sentences.  They have silly illustrations to show how changing the punctuation can change the whole meaning of the sentence.  You have to change the punctuation to match the silly (or not) picture, sometimes to change it three different ways to match three different pictures.  I used to give the kids a page a week from each book, and then we'd get through about two books a year.

 

I don't know what to say about spelling.  My most horrid speller (who also could do fine on tests but not apply it) has miraculously become much, much better (she's in 9th now).  I have no idea how, so I'm no help.  I gave up spelling lists a few years back, so that wasn't it.  It also wasn't reading a lot, unless it was online, as I can barely get the kid to read anything in print..

 

I bought Spelling Wisdom at one point (which is studied dictation) in the thought that it was spelling in context - maybe that could help?  We didn't end up sticking with it, but mostly out of just not getting to it, it still could be a good idea for this problem?

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

Seems like your dad got a pretty good deal, no?  LOL!

 

DD knows how to type and does type her papers.  However, I have disabled spell checker because I want her to learn to spell on her own first without leaning on the spell checker.  Are the programs you mention all intended to be used with spell check, or can they be used by someone typing without spell checker? 
 

FWIW, my dad was awful at spelling and punctuation.  He started dating my mom to get help with his college English classes.   :lol:   He still did very well in college and went on to a very successful career (and got a great wife in the process).

 

Honestly, I agree with others that what might help more is teaching her how to edit her own papers.  You could also look at support systems like the Ginger software (sometimes on sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op) and the latest version of Dragon Speak and teaching her how to use a spell checker.  Does she type?  The Touch-type Read and Spell program might help and it is also sometimes on sale for a huge discount through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.

 

[Reefgazer]

This is going to sound stupid, but we haven't done any copy work with DD.  Where would I find copy work at her level?  Just picking up lines from literature at her spelling level?  It seems lines of copy work from her reading level might be way over her head spelling wise.

Copy work and having her edit her own writing will help.  For some it takes longer than others.  Ask any high school English teacher, most kids are still fine tuning mechanics and spelling.

 

[Reefgazer]

The bolded is exactly what she is telling me, when I ask her about the issue.  I think I may have to substitute dictation and copy work for a complete R+S English program, but I've no idea about how to find copy work and dictation at her level, or if I shoot for these things at her spelling/punctuation level or at her reading level. 

For a kid who is having trouble integrating spelling and punctuation into real paragraphs, most formal spelling or grammar programs will help only marginally because the exercises do not require the student to think of those skills on the fly while writing.

 

Proofreading can help.

 

Dictation can help a lot, especially with punctuation issues. Most kids associate letters with sounds, right? But many kids struggle to associate punctuation marks either with the absence of sound (pauses for commas or periods) or with the quality of sound (raising the voice indicates a question, etc.). So, just like we taught our kids to associate letters with sounds when they were young, dictation gives them practice for filling in the correct marks for pauses or for specific sound inflections.

 

It is similar to marking music with both notes AND rests. Every beat has a mark to correspond with the sound or lack thereof.

 

Dictation will also help with spelling. 

 

If you continue a spelling program, it is important to not only memorize the words (the appearance of the correctly spelled word), but also include those words in more extensive proofreading in which the words are spelled correctly sometimes and incorrectly other times. I have not found a program that does this--I usually have to write this sort of exercise myself.

 

[Reefgazer]

This looks like a possibility.  Would you use this with Editor-In-Chief or in place of EIC?

For punctuation, and grammar in general, I will plug the book Shannon is using right now (8th grade): The Best Grammar Workbook Ever! which is doing a very great job of filling in the holes and clarifying all the rules, for punctuation, usage, etc. It's not a long book, and she uses it completely on her own, and really enjoys it - the lessons are direct, pithy, and clear, and there is an exercise for each one and a test at the end of each chapter.  Your dd could even run through it now and/or over the summer and be done before 9th grade even starts - that's our goal, that grammar not need to be a formal subject in 9th. I think it's going to work!

 

[Faithr]

Well. the gem I have used for high school copy work these last two years is Farnsworth's Classical English Rhetoric.  

 

Before that we often used a current read aloud or selections from The Harp and the Laurel Wreath among other sources.

 

My kids are dyslexic and spelling programs never ever worked for them!  What did help enormously was using spell check!  Because it would tell them instantly when they spelled something wrong and that is what they needed to learn to spell, to be corrected right away instead of misspelling a word over and over again only to find out after the fact they had spelled it wrong.  You do still have to read and edit because spell check doesn't solve all problems!

 

The other thing that really helped was posting spelling rules once a week on our kitchen wall.  We would talk about spelling a lot in our house but in a casual way.  For some reason this was far more helpful to them than the drudgery of a spelling program which frustrated them and seemed to have no sticking power.  I used Phonics Pathways as a resource for my spelling rules but you can find a list of rules easily on line and then just make up your own little 'poster' each week, if you want to do things that way.

 

 

[Matryoshka]

This is what we used in 6th grade before we switched to R+S, so I know what you mean by that program integrating grammar and punctuation.  I agree that MCT does a great job of integrating the two.  We both liked the program and she understood those lessons and could repeat them back.  But when the lessons didn't transfer to her writing,

 

At this point, I am hesitant to pick up MCT again because I was hoping to focus on literature and writing instead of grammar for high school.  I also have an issue with MCT writing at the upper level because I don't like his "copy an entire paragraph as part of an essay and quote it" writing style.

 

 

Hm.  What parts of MCT were you using?  Did you do the Practice books?    For Grammar, I think the most important part is the Practice sentences.  I just had the kids do 2-4 sentences a week, and then we go over them.  Takes almost no time at all, but really cements things.  I also ended up not using the writing books much.  I had them do about half the Paragraph Town lessons, and we just read Essay Voyage, and we did other things after that - I'm also not fond of his upper level writing.  But we kept up the Practice sentences (even though we didn't do much with Magic Lens either).  Most of his grammar books are repetitive, honestly.  I really only read though them quickly to get the concepts (I think I skipped Grammar Voyage entirely), then apply, apply, apply - which is the Practice sentences  - quick, and make you apply everything at once to keep it fresh.  I actually usually only do the 2nd half of the book (sentences 50 and up) because they include all four parts of analysis. 

 

 

As far as the other bit I was talking about, which might be a good idea to review if you already have any of the books they're in (I wouldn't buy new books for these, though...), is the Punctuation as a Function of Grammar exercises (P as f of G), which are kind of hidden.  There are some at the back of Paragraph Town, and some sprinkled through Magic Lens.  Here's an example of one - you have an unpunctuated sentence.  Then you have to choose one or more - or none! - depending on what the sentence needs:

 

The Red River Valley is a nice tune to know when youre in the desert.

a. italics on the song title

b. quotation marks around the song title

c. a comma after the dependent clause

d. a comma after the independent clause

e. an apostrophe in the contraction

 

(There of course is no comma, as this is an ID sentence).

 

I'll have to take a look at Punctuation Puzzlers.  Do you think it would complement Editor-In-Chief, or should I use that in addition to EIC, or as a replacement for EIC?

 

 

I did them both, but if she's done a lot of EIC and it's not sticking, you could just switch.  The books are thin.  A page or two a week will get you through a level a year, and that's enough. 

[Matryoshka]

The bolded is exactly what she is telling me, when I ask her about the issue.  I think I may have to substitute dictation and copy work for a complete R+S English program, but I've no idea about how to find copy work and dictation at her level, or if I shoot for these things at her spelling/punctuation level or at her reading level. 

 

Look at Spelling Wisdom.  It has sentences and short paragraphs to use for Copywork/Dictation for older kids.  It's just a download.  There are samples so you can see what's in each level.

 

[Reefgazer]

We used all the components of the MCT system, including the Practice books.  I really liked them and agree they are important; in fact; DS is working through one now.  We abandoned the writing books early on - they just didn't have the explicit instruction my kids needed for writing.

 

DD seems to "get" grammar (as does DS), and she does understand how grammar and punctuation are related.  So when I present her with exercises that ask her to integrate the two (from MCT or Rod and Staff) she can do it easily.  But applying it to her papers is another story entirely!

 

She's been doing EIC for a few years and I'm seeing minimal progress.  I thought she just needed more work on that to be able to apply it.  I didn't know the books were weak because I did not have a good grammar education myself.  Which of these books is the series I should start with?  I assume the first link?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Punctuation-Puzzlers-Level-Book-Commas/dp/0894558390/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1452864400&sr=8-3&keywords=punctuation+puzzlers

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Run--Riddlers-Level-Book-Hockett/dp/0894558188/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452864400&sr=8-1&keywords=punctuation+puzzlers

 

 

 

 

  Hm.  What parts of MCT were you using?  Did you do the Practice books?    For Grammar, I think the most important part is the Practice sentences.  I just had the kids do 2-4 sentences a week, and then we go over them.  Takes almost no time at all, but really cements things.  I also ended up not using the writing books much.  I had them do about half the Paragraph Town lessons, and we just read Essay Voyage, and we did other things after that - I'm also not fond of his upper level writing.  But we kept up the Practice sentences (even though we didn't do much with Magic Lens either).  Most of his grammar books are repetitive, honestly.  I really only read though them quickly to get the concepts (I think I skipped Grammar Voyage entirely), then apply, apply, apply - which is the Practice sentences  - quick, and make you apply everything at once to keep it fresh.  I actually usually only do the 2nd half of the book (sentences 50 and up) because they include all four parts of analysis. 

 

 

As far as the other bit I was talking about, which might be a good idea to review if you already have any of the books they're in (I wouldn't buy new books for these, though...), is the Punctuation as a Function of Grammar exercises (P as f of G), which are kind of hidden.  There are some at the back of Paragraph Town, and some sprinkled through Magic Lens.  Here's an example of one - you have an unpunctuated sentence.  Then you have to choose one or more - or none! - depending on what the sentence needs:

 

The Red River Valley is a nice tune to know when youre in the desert.

a. italics on the song title

b. quotation marks around the song title

c. a comma after the dependent clause

d. a comma after the independent clause

e. an apostrophe in the contraction

 

(There of course is no comma, as this is an ID sentence).
 

 

I did them both, but if she's done a lot of EIC and it's not sticking, you could just switch.  The books are thin.  A page or two a week will get you through a level a year, and that's enough. 

 

Edited January 15, 2016 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

Thanks!

Look at Spelling Wisdom.  It has sentences and short paragraphs to use for Copywork/Dictation for older kids.  It's just a download.  There are samples so you can see what's in each level.
 

 

[AppleGreen]

We have found it (somewhat) useful to have the computer read the paper as my child follows along to edit. Alternately, I will read it aloud as my child edits. Having someone else doing the reading and reading exactly what is written helps catch some of those scratch your head, how did you miss that edits.

[Guest NoWordsMouth]

I am a current 9th grader, maybe in perspective of a 9th grader can help...?

 

Honestly, the action you need to find is how hard she is trying, she sounds very, very good and well behaved. Sometimes we tend to slack from time to time if we struggle or think something is too difficult, [don't we all.] Learning herself is a great method, reading a little more advanced interesting books would be excellent, such as "Of Mice and Men" or "Where the Red Fern Grows." or "Animal Farm."

 

The best method I can understand is, never push a person to their limit in schools, sometimes its best to go a little low and get amazing grades then be in a high class with bad grades and little understanding, this will confuse her for sure. Stress is also a key.

 

Sometime we can show our feelings sometimes we want the attention of showing, this might not be the case though. A struggle and stress can limit what your willing to do, what your willing to learn. I have that same problem and I realize that I put random commas everywhere after each state in words, as if I would take a breath and continue talking.

 

I hope you understand more than I do, but focus on her mental stability as well :)

[Reefgazer]

LOL!  I do this with my college students when they complain their essays were downgraded.  I can't believe I didn't think to do it with my own kid.

We have found it (somewhat) useful to have the computer read the paper as my child follows along to edit. Alternately, I will read it aloud as my child edits. Having someone else doing the reading and reading exactly what is written helps catch some of those scratch your head, how did you miss that edits.

 

[Reefgazer]

Thank you for this perspective!

 

I have been toying with the idea that my expectations may be too high; I even voiced this possibility to DH.  I have to re-visit this.

I am a current 9th grader, maybe in perspective of a 9th grader can help...?

 

Honestly, the action you need to find is how hard she is trying, she sounds very, very good and well behaved. Sometimes we tend to slack from time to time if we struggle or think something is too difficult, [don't we all.] Learning herself is a great method, reading a little more advanced interesting books would be excellent, such as "Of Mice and Men" or "Where the Red Fern Grows." or "Animal Farm."

 

The best method I can understand is, never push a person to their limit in schools, sometimes its best to go a little low and get amazing grades then be in a high class with bad grades and little understanding, this will confuse her for sure. Stress is also a key.

 

Sometime we can show our feelings sometimes we want the attention of showing, this might not be the case though. A struggle and stress can limit what your willing to do, what your willing to learn. I have that same problem and I realize that I put random commas everywhere after each state in words, as if I would take a breath and continue talking.

 

I hope you understand more than I do, but focus on her mental stability as well :)