ADHD, behavior challenges...what happens if you return to school mid-year?

[provenance61]

Our DD (8) is in 3rd grade.  We pulled her out of public school in fall of her 1st grade year.  She has other issues where she had to have an IEP (not behavior, a physical disability).

 

Bottom line is, it worked well for two years, although there have always been ups and downs in her behavior.  She can be hyperactive, challenging.  But you know, it worked for two years.  But this year the work is a bit harder, it does take a bit more concentration.  And she has been SO challenging.  She doesn't want to do her work, and she will actually make up numbers or scribble in her book to try to get away with not doing work.  Multiple times.  And she will shout, sometimes hit.  And corner our animals.  But then in between can be sweet and intelligent.  But you never know when--except if you tell her no or try to correct her work or behavior, watch out.

 

And we also homeschool another older child with ADHD and processing issues.  Because of the attention, I have to constantly work to monitor progress.  Did I mention one is loud and sensory seeking, and the other needs quiet to focus at all?  I am literally shaking as I'm reading this, thinking about putting her back in public school.  And this year also I've had some minor physical health issues that I need to get control of.

 

What exactly happens if you enroll a child mid-year in public school?  I'm thinking they might not count that year, or might test her abilities and then might not count some of the homeschooling since it isn't public.  I'm not fond at all of the option, and we had problems getting and implementing the IEP, but I'm almost to the point of thinking that seeing her behavior corrected by others might help.  Or at least give me a small break to regroup during the day.

 

I know we need to pursue more evaluations, but in the meantime I am CRAZY trying to monitor her all the time.  Any comments/suggestions would help so much.  I need to be able to weigh what the options are.  I don't want to pull in and out of school, but I'd look at this as a try it and see how it goes option.  Maye?

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm not in your house, but I can tell you what happened in our house.  Ds is the very ADHD, sensory, behavioral challenges, terrorizing our home, and dd is the ADHD-inattentive.  Similar dynamic to yours, sounds like.  It took private evals to sort it out, but they bumped ds to an ASD label, which finally explained everything.  I've brought in a behaviorist, and she's going to work with us and bring in providers to work with him several hours a day once our bumped up level of funding starts.

 

In other words, there were answers, but none of them were what we thought.  I never thought I'd be bringing in a behaviorist to help my kid.  But I've been choked, threatened, scratched, had my hair pulled out, and we're just done.  

 

I don't know what really is going on in your house, and I can't recognize ASD if I sit beside it for 3 hours.  Seriously.  I can tell you that our ps was great about putting services in for the SPD, the SLDs, blah blah, and totally balked at the ASD.  We're going back now to get that fixed, sigh.  When we got our diagnosis, I didn't know what I needed.  Like people could tell me, but he was just sort of at that young stage where you're like oh but it's gonna go away, oh but we're going to get a breakthrough.  That behaviorist walked into our home and this wave of CALM descended.  She knows JUST how to work with ds, how to approach him without making him run, how to get into his world.  MY tension went down, and then it was like oh I think I'll go pick up!  Like you don't even realize how much other stuff you AREN'T doing because you're constantly on call for this.

 

I don't know what your mix is.  School could help you sort that out.  They'd definitely do some OT for the sensory.  You'd definitely fight to get that IEP updated and implemented.  That's against the law for them not to implement the IEP.  Whether what they could offer you is ENOUGH, that is another story.  And then, if you wanted to be at home, what kind of mix would that require, kwim?  For us it's OT and adding in a behaviorist and hours with providers.  You're right that herd can help.  But some of that will just be honeymoon.  As soon as she gets comfortable (which may take months), you'll see the behaviors come out again.  And the IEP process and how they'll intervene is SLOW.  If you want more done (no matter where she is for school), you're looking at your insurance or whatever to pay.  Our state has a disability scholarship process.

 

Yes, private evals would help you advocate for her more clearly in the IEP process.  If you can go to a place where more is on the table (ADHD vs....), a place that slows down, that can be good.

[sbgrace]

I would ask the school to start the IEP process (evaluation) now. They have considerable time after the request is made. I would want to know what accommodations would be made and have those in place before she started.

 

 

 

ETA: Is she unmedicated? My son is a lot better on ADHD medication. He tells me it helps him feel settled and calm. What I see is far less hyperactivity and impulsivity, which for him includes emotional dysregulation. He's also better able to focus, though the autism stuff still makes that harder than I wish it was.

Edited December 8, 2015 by sbgrace

[provenance61]

Thanks Oh Elizabeth.  Can I ask, are you homeschooling both children still or is the one with the ASD diagnosis in school now?  When you mention IEP, it sounds like school.

 

We had a tremendous time getting IEP in place for other issues.  It is a long story, but it involves difficulty with an outside state agency that works with the school for her physical disability.  Because they weren't helping, we pushed back on the school -- and caught a lot of flack.  We did see and ask for sensory OT while in school, but they didn't see it as necessary then.  We did OT out of pocket in K, through a children's hospital, and it helped a little, but our goal of having this transfer in....no go.  They simply dismissed the outside OT's recommendations as they didn't see it.  By start of 1st, they did start seeing behavior in school.  This was not news, we saw it at home.  And funny thing, when she was good at home, the behaviors would come out in school.  Or when she was good in school, it was like an explosion when she came home. 

 

I am so hesitant to put her back in school, and don't really want to...except I have to make something work to make things calmer, and also to make sure she gets a good education.  Do you think school would help?  Or are there ways to work with the behavior to correct at home?

 

Can you explain what you mentioned "if you can go to a place where there is more on the table, ADHD vs...."?  I'm not sure I understand that. 

 

I'm wondering do you have any recommendations or your behaviorist, for dealing with some behavior issues at home?  I understand you when you say you are just done.  And the dynamics do sound similar to many of ours.  We had really difficult issues with her around 5, when there was pushing and hitting.  It calmed when we pulled her.  But lately there has been the pushing again and in between the name calling and aggression.  It is really making a lot of chaos at home. 

[provenance61]

Thanks Oh Elizabeth.  Can I ask, are you homeschooling both children still or is the one with the ASD diagnosis in school now?  When you mention IEP, it sounds like school.

 

We had a tremendous time getting IEP in place for other issues.  It is a long story, but it involves difficulty with an outside state agency that works with the school for her physical disability.  Because they weren't helping, we pushed back on the school -- and caught a lot of flack.  We did see and ask for sensory OT while in school, but they didn't see it as necessary then.  We did OT out of pocket in K, through a children's hospital, and it helped a little, but our goal of having this transfer in....no go.  They simply dismissed the outside OT's recommendations as they didn't see it.  By start of 1st, they did start seeing behavior in school.  This was not news, we saw it at home.  And funny thing, when she was good at home, the behaviors would come out in school.  Or when she was good in school, it was like an explosion when she came home. 

 

I am so hesitant to put her back in school, and don't really want to...except I have to make something work to make things calmer, and also to make sure she gets a good education.  Do you think school would help?  Or are there ways to work with the behavior to correct at home?

 

Can you explain what you mentioned "if you can go to a place where there is more on the table, ADHD vs...."?  I'm not sure I understand that. 

 

I'm wondering do you have any recommendations or your behaviorist, for dealing with some behavior issues at home?  I understand you when you say you are just done.  And the dynamics do sound similar to many of ours.  We had really difficult issues with her around 5, when there was pushing and hitting.  It calmed when we pulled her.  But lately there has been the pushing again and in between the name calling and aggression.  It is really making a lot of chaos at home. 

[Kat w]

I'd do what the above posters suggest and.... get meds. Or at least talk to the doc about it.

 

Depends on your state...my pediatrician prescribed them . they helped alot.

It doesn't take it all away for us...

But it makes it more manageable .

Edited December 8, 2015 by Kat w

[PeterPan]

Thanks Oh Elizabeth.  Can I ask, are you homeschooling both children still or is the one with the ASD diagnosis in school now?  When you mention IEP, it sounds like school.

 

We had a tremendous time getting IEP in place for other issues.  It is a long story, but it involves difficulty with an outside state agency that works with the school for her physical disability.  Because they weren't helping, we pushed back on the school -- and caught a lot of flack.  We did see and ask for sensory OT while in school, but they didn't see it as necessary then.  We did OT out of pocket in K, through a children's hospital, and it helped a little, but our goal of having this transfer in....no go.  They simply dismissed the outside OT's recommendations as they didn't see it.  By start of 1st, they did start seeing behavior in school.  This was not news, we saw it at home.  And funny thing, when she was good at home, the behaviors would come out in school.  Or when she was good in school, it was like an explosion when she came home. 

 

I am so hesitant to put her back in school, and don't really want to...except I have to make something work to make things calmer, and also to make sure she gets a good education.  Do you think school would help?  Or are there ways to work with the behavior to correct at home?

 

Can you explain what you mentioned "if you can go to a place where there is more on the table, ADHD vs...."?  I'm not sure I understand that. 

 

I'm wondering do you have any recommendations or your behaviorist, for dealing with some behavior issues at home?  I understand you when you say you are just done.  And the dynamics do sound similar to many of ours.  We had really difficult issues with her around 5, when there was pushing and hitting.  It calmed when we pulled her.  But lately there has been the pushing again and in between the name calling and aggression.  It is really making a lot of chaos at home. 

Well, honestly, I'm trying to be gentle here and not say something you're not ready to hear.  In our house, those behaviors are part of what pushes it over to an ASD label.  That's not normal, typical, run of the mill ADHD.  There are some in-between labels they'll use (ODD, etc.), but I'm just saying in our house that's what it was.  So when I suggest you look for a place where more is on the table, I'm saying for *us* getting to the bottom of it meant sitting down with a psych who did nothing but spend 6-8 hours looking at *just* the autism question.  A clinic that specializes in ASD would be a way to do that.  In our area, the ps alone can't get an ASD diagnosis done.  Technically, by federal law, they're supposed to, but they don't have the staff.  It's really something you sort out privately.  You can ask them and then go through due process and get the to pay for 3rd party evals, yes.  

 

If you're looking for immediate help, The Explosive Child is the closest thing that fit my ds.  Sad to say, oy.  Lots of strategies for collaboration, deflecting, etc.  Definitely helped us.  The behaviorist goes way beyond that and can draw from multiple approaches.  Honestly, my ds is challenging enough to work with that for her to get him to open up with her the way he did the day he did (which was a really prime form day, wow, LOTS of behavior that day!), I know she's got it.  I did ask her if she does ABA, and she had some answer about that plus other things.  I don't give a rip.  She GETS him.  She's going to come in, work with him, create plans and goals for the other people who work with him, and help transfer those skills to him being able to work with me.  

 

I take *very* seriously the reactions he has.  Anyways, we're going to be ok.  For us, having someone come in the home seems to be the right solution.  I took ds to the school for a brief observation, and they're like oh, we see nothing (for the ASD) that we'd make IEP goals for...  And I'm like REALLY, you really think you're going to see it in a brief observation like that?  Hello, honeymoon.  And hello, he went to the park after that and knocked over a kid, wouldn't apologize, and then came home and melted down!  And that was just with like 1 1/2 hours!  I can't imagine if he were there all day, every day.  Actually, I can.  As soon as the novelty wore off, he would refuse to go.  He'll refuse to go to things he otherwise likes, like swim lessons.  I've literally had to pick him up and carry him, undressed and in pjs, to go to stuff!  He'll get there and then warm up.  Or sometimes he'll get there and still refuse.  

 

So I no longer have any illusions that a nebulous school idea would be this solution.  I think, like you're saying, it would make more challenges.  Right now, to me, the real issue is stabilizing the behavior with interventions, because he needs that IRRESPECTIVE OF WHERE HE GOES TO SCHOOL.  That, for me, is the kicker.  No matter where he goes to school, he needs help.  So if putting your dc in school helps you get help, that can be good.  If getting evals through your insurance or whatever helps you get coverage of interventions, that can be good.  In our state, we have a disability scholarship.  You give up your FAPE (right to a Free and Appropriate Public Education through the school), and in turn you are given funds to implement your IEP, with tiers depending on category of disability.  By moving ds up to the ASD scholarship (which we're working on now, hallelujah), we'll be able to get the rest of the interventions he needs.  Our first scholarship was a lower tier, so we've only been able to afford speech and OT with that.  With the new scholarship, we'll be able to bring in a behaviorist, get social skills therapy, work more on his speech (because in his case his speech disability is affecting his ability to communicate, affecting behavior).  So I'm crazy excited about that.

 

So yes, I'm homeschooling the two at home.  My kids love each other, really and truly, but ds is SO hard for dd to live with that she basically holes up in her office and never comes out.  We're going to help her dual enroll 2nd semester at a local college (if we can get all the paperwork done in time, whew!), which should help.  She just needs away from him, from his noise, from his intensity.  And I need help from the behaviorist because he's increasingly physical with me.  He's not generalizing who we obey, why we obey, etc.  It's just getting BAD.  And, you know, when he was 5 we thought we were handling it ok.  We thought everything was in that realm of problematic but tolerable.  Now, at age 7, we're really having problems.  And, you know, HE is not happy like that.  It's not just us.  That makes HIM unhappy.  And if we can get these behaviorist providers in and get them working with him and get him more comfortable, more calmed down, I'm cool with that.  And where that goes next, I don't know.  I just think that's better, at least for us, than saying wow if I put him in school everything would go away because they have structure!  He'd come home and STILL have the same issues with generalizing, not understanding why we do things (or don't do things), self-regulating, etc.  

 

But I can be honest and say yeah, get him these interventions and maybe something else would be on the table, kwim?  But that might involve an hour commute each day to get that right placement, something I'm not sure I'm up to. And the cost of that would eat up all his scholarship, meaning he wouldn't have funds left for interventions, meaning we need to get more interventions under our belt first.  I'm just taking it one step at a time.  Dd is doing well on testing, going to go DE.  I have every reason to think that we *could* meet his needs at home with enough support.  Because his SN are incredibly complex (3 SLDs plus ASD plus apraxia plus...), he really benefits from custom.  Like we do a lot with K'nex.  I can weave all kinds of skills and goals into that.  Yesterday we started the K'nex Chaos Coaster I picked up during the sales on amazon.  He likes photography, which is really ironic considering he's extremely hard to get a picture of!  I've been thinking we might do kind of a "world according to me" book and bring in writing and photography into that.  We're working on composition and functional speech, building off simple things we memorize.  It's just really custom and never passive, never I was in a room and things happened around me.  I dump audiobooks at him (in prolific amounts!) to cover up the holes.  Seriously.  Like I admit I'm not going to be able to accomplish academic goals AND the disability work AND the behavioral stuff AND the physical needs, so I keep his kindle stocked with audiobooks and get him access to videos, etc. to scratch that intellectual itch, kwim?  To me, the behavioral stuff is where it's at.  He can drive his science and history education just fine, but if I don't get him help for behavior and social skills he won't be employable.  If I work on academics and don't hit the behavioral, I've missed the mark.  Ultimately, I want him employable.  I want a lot of things (love God, know how to interact, etc.), but I want him employable.  And social skills and behavioral stuff (self-regulation, etc.) are what's going to determine that.  Sigh.

[PeterPan]

Adding: So that's why they gave us an IEP, because they were required to for the scholarship process.  I think IDEA (the federal legislation) requires schools to eval, but that doens't mean they actually have to give you an IEP and services.  It varies by state, and that could be where things are breaking down.  You can find out what the law requires in your state and sort that out.  You can require them to give you *evals* even if they balk at the IEP.  

 

 

[Guest]

There are several other disorders that often occur together with ADHD (see link below). While SOME kids on the spectrum MAY ALSO have ADHD, ADHD+SPD do NOT equal ASD.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/conditions.html

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

For those interested, I found reference of this study in Temple Grandin's book, Different... Not Less.

 

Constantine JN, Todd RD. Autistic traits in the general population: a twin study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2003;60: 524-530.

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2006.01720.x/full

 

Note: If the link above does not lead you to the full study, copy/paste the title of the study to Google Scholar and you should be able to find the PDF download, as I did.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Correction... here's the correct title for the study:

 

Reversen AM, Constantino JM, Volk NE, Todd RD. Autistic traits in a population-based ADHD twin sample . J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2007;48: 464-472.

 

The one in my previous post is also referenced in her book but the one I was looking to link is the one in this post. The link in the previous post, however, is correct.

[Guest]

Posting this for the benefit of those dealing with both disorders with their child. These are the final conclusions from the study as copy/pasted by the PDF file.

 

"Conclusions

The current study shows evidence of association

between ADHD and autistic symptoms in children

ascertained from the general twin population. The

strongest evidence for this association is found in

combined subtype ADHD subjects. Among children

with ADHD, girls may be even more likely to exhibit

clinically significant social impairment than boys.

Our finding that nearly one-third of boys and three-

fourths of girls with population-defined severe com-

bined subtype ADHD meet clinical cutoffs for autistic

symptomatology suggests that gene association,

genetic linkage, and imaging studies of autism and

ADHD that have excluded participants based on co-

occurrence of symptoms have tremendously skewed

sampling frames. Whether the apparent association

of ADHD and autistic symptoms is due to genetic

and environmental causes influencing both disor-

ders, measurement overlap due to imperfect dia-

gnostic instruments, or other factors, it appears

important to consider the presence of both ADHD

symptoms and autistic features in studies of either

disorder.

In our own clinical experience, children with a

combination of ADHD symptoms and autistic traits

are generally much more difficult to treat than chil-

dren with ADHD alone. These children may benefit

from treatment of both disorders, and revision of

DSM diagnostic criteria to allow the diagnosis of both

ADHD and PDD in the same individual might re-

inforce the importance of treating both disorders

when they co-occur. Treatment studies involving

children with these characteristics may be useful in

defining the most appropriate treatment strategies

for these patients."

Edited December 11, 2015 by Guest

[provenance61]

Thank you so much for the info, I am finding I can relate parts to one child, parts to another.  I need to sift through it a bit more and will repost.  Having a good board to ask questions on is a huge help.  :)

 

[provenance61]

Well, I thought I was going to sit down and reflect on all the advice.  We just had a kicker of a day (and night). 

 

In no particular order -- I don't think we would have trouble getting an IEP, since with her physical disability they are required to give her one.  However, we already had difficulty in getting enough (as Oh Elizabeth put it) in it, and had to get independent evals in order to get needed services.  Just in terms of giving her appropriate materials she can access etc.  And getting this done consistently in the classroom was a nightmare. 

 

No, she's not medicated and has no behavioral label.  We have tried, the behavior has been there all along -- but even with 3/4 teacher evals and ours supporting attention and hyperactivity problems, the ped would not go with it.  We literally had an apppointment where she jumped off the exam table for about an hour, I let her b/c I thought he'd see the behavior, and he still thinks she's just an active child.  Someone mentioned ODD, the description of that fits to a T.  The behavior is not always noticeable, she can be sweet and very social.  But when she's not, oh my.  You should have seen it here tonight.  One correction (not to mishandle books) and it escalated something awful.  I am apparently a terrible person, we deserve to die, and as a bonus she went after the cat.

 

I'm thinking here again about the public school and my motivations.  I just think I need some kind of break if nothing else.  It's saying something b/c we had such difficulties with school and the IEP process.  But I'm wondering if just some...respite....during the day and lifting responsibility for school might help.  We have an older child who really needs help meeting his learning needs, and really wants to try, and I'm spending 90% of my time with her.  I can't have him out of the house because he needs a lot of intervention and assistance.

 

Is it wrong to think of public school in this way?  Does this ever happen?  Or will things get better if we can scrape enough together to get a full neuropsych in the next couple of months and hopefully....I don't know what.  Medication?  We just evaluated our other child and it was a huge out of pocket expense we are struggling with.  Partly though as I went first through a neurologist.  I'm thinking here, maybe just do neuropsych?  They seemed to have more hands-on useful testing and observations.

 

Help.

[provenance61]

And I really feel quite awful, I actually pulled a breakfast to Santa event scheduled for tomorrow morning.  It was just so awful.  But I warned to please stop, and it didn't, I just can't see doing it right after this.  But it's like, when it gets awful there's no getting through to her.

 

We did also have a situation last week at a party, where she knocked a girl down because she was running around crazy, and the poor girl was just trying to sweep up after the event.  Refused to apologize, it's all her fault, etc.  And this was after there had been a near incident and we'd warned her about safety.

 

But on the other hand -- the ped said that because she can control herself in some situations it must not be ADHD.  Like the one class she liked.  And we had a really awful behavior two weeks ago in church, and almost got kicked out of choir.  Yet she is back and is actually behaving there the couple of times since that.  What gives?  Why does this come and go?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by provenance61

[PeterPan]

Honestly, when she wakes up, take her to the breakfast.  The reason is because if she has more serious issues going on, she's not really going to learn anything by missing it anyway.  So then YOU'RE going to pay because her whole day and all her expectations of the plans will be messed up.

 

If you've done all the typical parenting things (spanking, timeouts, tomato staking, collaboration, positive reinforcement) and you're still not getting through, obviously there's an issue.  You need a psychologist, not the pediatrician, sorry.  

 

My ds does not seem to get cause/effect.  He doesn't even really seem to get natural consequences.  I'm working on that now, like you hurt the dog you go to your room for some time to regain self control.  That, to me, is a reasonable natural consequence for safety.  But he actually gets dangerous and throws things and is awful when you take him there.  It's not that he's bad.  I think he really, legitimately does not understand.  When he understands and is communicating and is in control, he's actually a really pleasant, congenial soul, kwim?  

 

That's why I'm saying, to me I'd just let it go.  You have more than missing Santa will fix.  Seeing Santa might change the topic, cheer her up, or otherwise get some positive vibes you can ride.  But, you know, I think it's fair game to do kind of a self-monitoring thing in the morning and ask if she feels calm and if she feels up to it.  I'd set some boundaries and pre-warn.  In our house we talk about expected behavior and unexpected behavior.  If I intend to have consequences for unexpected behavior, I tell them ahead of time, so he's not surprised.  So like right now with the dog thing we're talking about that: what is the consequence if you...  But even that is very stressful for him and will SET HIM OFF.  Oy.  A real subtle touch is necessary.

 

I would prediscuss expected behavior and consequences for unexpected behavior.  Choir, whatever.

 

I'm just trying to figure out where your ped is coming from.  Plenty of kids with ADHD don't have issues like this.  I do agree that at this age it's common or easy for the practitioner to blame YOU for the child's behavior and not really grasp that it's distinct and different from the realm of otherwise normal bad kid behavior.  For me, 7 was that line where it was radically obvious.  Your dd is 8.  I can see why you're offended.  The neuropsych, fancy bigwig who was crazy expensive and supposedly well-regarded, pulled the same stunt with us.  And 6 months later ds got an ASD diagnosis that has now been confirmed by another practitioner (the behaviorist).  It was never my fault, and it's probably not yours either.  When behavior is so extreme and out of the norm that normal techniques can't work with it, there are reasons.  

 

To me, I'm glad to have the behaviorist coming in (which will start when our funding slides over when our paperwork is done, which may take a while, sigh).  I'm hoping they can find ways to connect with what he CAN understand, since it doesn't seem like any of my strategies result in understanding.

 

If you want some immediate things to try The Explosive Child by Green is pretty good.

 

On your sweeping/knocking down incident, etc., you can read Zones of Regulation.  Basically, by the time she gets to that point, you've got a problem.  You're not going to just say something and have some cognitive process, because at that point her body and ability to reign things in is just VERY OUT OF CONTROL.  That's what we talk about with Zones of Regulation, how our self-regulation is doing.  And although we want to get there, where they can understand and talk through it, that takes a lot of work when they're IN CONTROL (green zone) and isn't something that happens bam because they're red zone and you want it.  And some kids aren't ready for it till 10-12.  You can make it WORSE by trying to require things they aren't ready for.  But you can talk zones and you can let that awareness help *you* protect her and others.  For instance, if I see my ds is getting yellow zone in a situation where someone else is supposed to be supervising, I can step in and use a strategy.  I don't have to just let that spiral.  And the imperativeness of how quickly and assertively and persuasively I make that intervention is there and I'm CONFIDENT because I get what's going on.  Zones.  That's what you're wanting to learn about next.  :)

 

And you can even use Green's strategies to redirect things when they're going yellow zone.  Like if my ds is spiraling, I'll turn things into a race.  It's a strategy from Green's book, and it works really well for ds.  It's not a cure, but I changed the situation and prevented things from getting worse, kwim?  Until I can get things better, we can at least avoid dangerous situations.  

 

You can also behavior log and problem solve, heading things off ahead of time.  For instance, ds steals my shoes EVERY TIME we take them off at OT and ST.  I am SO tired of people being prissy about their stupid floors and requiring people to take off shoes!!!!  Anyways, finally the OT points out, duh, we need to problem solve here.  So I put on my shoes 2 minutes before he finished, meaning he couldn't steal them.  

 

I don't do this, but you could arrange a secret sign with her for when you see she's out of control.  You could talk about it, have a secret sign, and PRACTICE doing this other times when she's NOT red zone, kwim?  So then, when she IS red zone and out of control and you give the sign (your secret snap, whatever), then she's used to the idea that this is fair, this is the routine, this is the thing we do.  If I were more brilliant, I'd be doing that, lol.  You can use any strategy you think of that is calming or redirecting.  A yoga pose, special slow breathing, sing a song, a snack, whatever.  

 

Sorry it's hard right now.  :(

Edited December 12, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Has she had an OT eval yet?  With all that banging and crashing, it sounds like sensory issues.  

 

Tonight my ds was, well let's just say he was not green zone.  I was trying to take him to gymnastics for his class, and he wouldn't go to the bathroom, wouldn't wash his face, blah blah.  It was horrible!  Then I realized that being in gymnastics was going to give him good sensory input and cheer him up.  It did, btw.  

 

[Guest]

deleted for privacy

Edited August 12, 2017 by Guest

[Mom28GreatKids]

I could not agree more with those who are suggesting you not skip the event. Kids lie this cannot process logical consequences for behavior, and they really cannot help their behavior. Likebit truly is not their fault. I never thought I would say something like that, but after having a child who truly cannot control his reactions at all, I understand this position. Having her miss the event will likely make the day miserable for all of you. Hope you can get things figured out.

[geodob]

You wrote that: 'Someone mentioned ODD, the description of that fits to a T.'

Where it could be well worth looking into this further?

 

What is behind this, is a dysfunction with the concept of 'authority'?

Which is a complex process, that we share and negotiate with others.

Where we cede different levels of authority to others.

For example, you might consider the complexity of a 'child following directions from an adult'?

When a child consider this, they can either maintain authority, and reject the directions?

Or cede authority of themselves over to the adult, and follow their directions?

 

Where this cedeing/ surrendering authority to the other, requires a level of trust in the other.

As obeying directions of the other, could possibly put one in danger?

Which one might need to flee from?

Or stay and resist?

As a fear reflex.  Fight or Flight.

Though this is triggered by different situations/ encounters.

Which as a Fear Reflex, one automatically reacts to.

 

But their is a simple exercise that you could try with her?

It just involves standing behind her, and asking her to lean backwards, and you catch her.

Where you begin by catching her, after she has only leaned back a small degree.

So that she establishes trust in confidence in you, at this small degree.

Then gradually increase how far she leans back, before you catch her.

You could also try this yourself, with someone catching you?

Where you will appreciate how much trust you must give to the other person, as you lean backwards?

[Targhee]

I am only putting this out there because it is something to consider, however unpleasant it may be.

 

I have three with ADHD, some sensory seeking for one thing while the other is sensory avoiding for that same things (noise, physical touch) which makes keeping everyone comfortable difficult. I also have some experience with kids who have other special needs (ASD, SPD, Down Syndrome, FAS) through teaching in various settings. But my girlfriend has a dd close in age to my youngest, and she was a puzzle. She would be sweet and kind, and then mean and defiant. She was bright, but at times seemed quite dull. My MIL, a public school teacher, was visiting and observed her. She asked me if this little girl was on the spectrum. I said I was not sure, parents thought it was just strong will, and I could tell behavior was not typical for her age except for the times when it was - and that made me think it wasn't ASD.

 

Well, my girlfriend came to find out that her dd had been being sexually abused by her own grandfather. :-( She was by nature strong willed, but when the abuse came in to play she was extremely defiant, contradictory about unimportant things, rude (viscous?), and violent. And they never seemed to know what would precipitate the unacceptable behavior, other than she seemed to be determined to be in control.

 

I am not suggesting that this same thing is going on with your child. I do suggest that every parent who notices a change in their child's behavior, especially inexplicable ones, consider the possibility, however repulsive or uncomfortable the thought.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Targhee

[Guest]

Targhee, that is awful :(

[Targhee]

Targhee, that is awful :(

Yes, it is. And very sobering. And it's only now, after a year of counseling and therapy (and grandpa pleading guilty to charges and in jail) that mom, dad, and little girl are doing better.

 

I love and trust my family, fiercely. Before this happened to my friend even raising the question in my mind that one of my family might be mistreating my child would have felt disloyal (and neurotic!). But I now feel that being observant and questioning of things without anyone feeling offended means I am secure in these relationships, and gives me even greater trust within my family. And I will share that awful story again if I think it might prevent worse things from happening to another child.