moving on to Alg 1 while there are still pre-A issues?

[Cottonwood]

Seems like DS has been in his Saxon Alg 1/2 book forever.  But he's within 10 lessons from being finished with the book and starting Alg 1 (Lials).  He didnt seem to have a summer slump where math is concerned and has been really rocking every lesson....except............  the whole time he's continued to have problems with unit multipliers, certain ratio problems and nearly always drops a step in figuring longer multi-step problems like volume/semi circle perimeter, etc.

 

Through this book, we've stopped and done practice on the 5 or so lessons he gets wrong, for a few days in a row sometimes.  He does well and eventually I move on to his next lesson to keep him through the book.  Then eventually he starts missing those problems again.

 

SO, Algebra 1+ moms, what do you think of this idea.... I'm thinking of keeping him moving through his lessons and not stopping yet again to reteach and repractice these 5 or so lessons again (just yesterday he got the SAME concepts wrong AGAIN while doing his 30 problems.)  Letting him start Alg 1 October 1st (the goal date!) and just now and again, stopping to review those concepts, but keep him moving through.  Maybe once he's done a few lessons in his Alg 1 book, stopping to check those concepts....then moving on with Alg 1?  So basically staggering his new work with trying to still review and firm up the concepts he is dropping.

 

I'm asking because I know a couple of these concepts are needed in Alg 1 but I can't see holding him back from going into Alg 1.  I suspect that part of it is because he's a little bored with this level of math right now.  But I"m not sure.  When we sit down to review just these few lessons he struggles with he seems to completely understand them THAT day.  But he's only averaging an 82 including tests, and as I look back, the ONLY ONES he misses are these few.  Otherwise, he'd have a solid A in math.

 

Ideas?

[go_go_gadget]

Have you tried using another resource to teach the concepts he's having trouble with? When a student can do problems on a topic when it's fresh but not do them when it isn't, after going through several cycles, it's a big red flag to me that the student is only learning the procedure involved, and not the concept itself. When a concept is truly, deeply understood, the procedures can be derived when forgotten. But if the procedures have been taught and forgotten repeatedly, there's a good chance that the concept has never properly been learned. If you've used the same materials (Saxon) every time, I would certainly try another approach. I wouldn't keep him in the Pre-A book if he's otherwise finished it, but I would hit those tricky concepts once a week, from different angles.

[OneStepAtATime]

Have you tried using another resource to teach the concepts he's having trouble with? When a student can do problems on a topic when it's fresh but not to them when it isn't, after going through several cycles, it's a big red flag to me that the student is only learning the procedure involved, and not the concepts themselves. When a concept is truly, deeply understood, the procedures can be derived when forgotten. But if the procedures have been taught and forgotten repeatedly, there's a good chance that the concept has never properly been learned. If you've used the same materials (Saxon) every time, I would certainly try another approach. I wouldn't keep him in the Pre-A book if he's otherwise finished it, but I would hit those tricky concepts once a week, from different angles.

:iagree:

 

ETA:  Since you are considering Lial's for Algebra 1, why not get a used copy of Lial's Pre-Algebra and run him through that first for those areas that he is struggling specifically?  And just issue chapter tests for the rest.  Do the material in each chapter whenever he runs into snags.

[g1234]

Absolutely consider moving on. I made my kid wallow for a year too long....some kids blossom with algebra. Her pre-a issues mostly withered away when she got to do algebra. He can review limited problem areas as he re-encounters them in alg....which he will. If he's generally sound in pre-a, I vote to let him see if he might find algebra way more inspiring than pre-algebra.

[kiana]

I think part of it is going to depend on how comfortable you as the mom are with pre-algebra and algebra. Personally I would have absolutely no issue moving on and dealing with issues as they arise -- I would probably get the Lial pre-algebra as well as the modular organization makes it easier to find practice problems than Saxon. 

 

Since you have pinpointed his trouble spots I would actually recommend just assigning a problem of each type every day -- just one problem -- if it's not already covered by his algebra assignment -- and having him do those as extra. 

[Tess in the Burbs]

do you have a list of what the kid is lacking from pre-alg?  I ask b/c my son did algebra last year but was still struggling with some decimal issues.  Mostly careless mistakes, not a true lack of understanding, but I had him go through the Key to Decimal books this summer (and still finishing the last one this month).  He asked for a second algebra year after our initial plan of going on to geometry.  I was glad he was mature enough to ask to redo algebra to make sure he's solid.  But if you had a list of what you think is an issue, it would be easy to find resources to work on alongside the algebra program. 

[Cottonwood]

Have you tried using another resource to teach the concepts he's having trouble with? When a student can do problems on a topic when it's fresh but not do them when it isn't, after going through several cycles, it's a big red flag to me that the student is only learning the procedure involved, and not the concept itself. When a concept is truly, deeply understood, the procedures can be derived when forgotten. But if the procedures have been taught and forgotten repeatedly, there's a good chance that the concept has never properly been learned. If you've used the same materials (Saxon) every time, I would certainly try another approach. I wouldn't keep him in the Pre-A book if he's otherwise finished it, but I would hit those tricky concepts once a week, from different angles.

 

Thank you, I had thought of this but have yet to do it.  But it makes sense and now I"m searching for Lial's Pre-A text.  Is the edition important?  I'm finding most any edition to be much pricier than the Alg 1 I purchased (8th ed).

 

:iagree:

 

ETA:  Since you are considering Lial's for Algebra 1, why not get a used copy of Lial's Pre-Algebra and run him through that first for those areas that he is struggling specifically?  And just issue chapter tests for the rest.  Do the material in each chapter whenever he runs into snags.

 

:thumbup:

Absolutely consider moving on. I made my kid wallow for a year too long....some kids blossom with algebra. Her pre-a issues mostly withered away when she got to do algebra. He can review limited problem areas as he re-encounters them in alg....which he will. If he's generally sound in pre-a, I vote to let him see if he might find algebra way more inspiring than algebra.

 

My DD14 did the same.  Except she is a total Saxon girl and went right into Saxon Alg 1 and is currently finishing that book completely independently and has all year with NO needed input from me.  Blew me away.  DS is really different ...hence the reason we are moving away from Saxon with him, but this is what I hope for him!  He's very math-minded and understands very quickly and tends to know how to do the new concept before I"m finished teaching it.  So I'm just not sure if this issue w/ him is because he needs to just go ahead and be in the Alg 1 book, or if he is really dropping the concepts.  He is very eager to start Alg 1 so lets hope is the blossoming type!

 

I think part of it is going to depend on how comfortable you as the mom are with pre-algebra and algebra. Personally I would have absolutely no issue moving on and dealing with issues as they arise -- I would probably get the Lial pre-algebra as well as the modular organization makes it easier to find practice problems than Saxon. 

 

Since you have pinpointed his trouble spots I would actually recommend just assigning a problem of each type every day -- just one problem -- if it's not already covered by his algebra assignment -- and having him do those as extra. 

 

I'm comfortable enough, I guess...only b/c my DD14 is extremely solid  in Alg 1 and can help, DH is a math geek...and I have the solutions manual and DVDs that go along w/ his Alg 1 book.  If all that doesn't work, I don't know what will. lol  I really like the bolded idea.  Tnx!

 

do you have a list of what the kid is lacking from pre-alg?  I ask b/c my son did algebra last year but was still struggling with some decimal issues.  Mostly careless mistakes, not a true lack of understanding, but I had him go through the Key to Decimal books this summer (and still finishing the last one this month).  He asked for a second algebra year after our initial plan of going on to geometry.  I was glad he was mature enough to ask to redo algebra to make sure he's solid.  But if you had a list of what you think is an issue, it would be easy to find resources to work on alongside the algebra program. 

yes, I keep a spreadsheet of the lessons that correspond w/ the book and every time he gets one right, I mark that column, and when he gets it wrong, I mark that column. Next to that I have a column that tells me what % of that lesson he is getting right/wrong.   If I see today that he missed a problem from lesson 33, but he has gotten 8 right in the past, I just move on.  I watch those %'s wrong more than anything so I don't waste time on ones he's mostly getting right.  

 

Great ideas, ladies! Thanks!  Off to shop for some resources :)

[BusyMom5]

Wow, you are so organized!  That's a great idea for seeing how they are doing in Saxon...  might need to do that myself!

[EndOfOrdinary]

When this happened with my son, I had him tell me the steps he needed to do. For some reason, he could say them, but not do them. We wrote down the steps and physical list was placed next to him. When he came to one of the problems, he used the list. After ten times, the list wasn't needed. It was as though he lost his mind and became overwhelmed when the problem showed up. This is just procedural knowledge. This has nothing to do with concept. In my son's instance, that did not bother me as I knew the next chapter or two were jumping deeply into the concept. Soon the whole picture would be revealed, so just following steps right now was not a big deal. In my experience, Saxon does not slowly develop the concept (I do not know about Lial's). Saxon also tends to mix up all the different types of problems on the lessons so that review is happening. Sometimes, students then get confused about what is going on. They are unable to actually name the types of problems they are working on.

 

Some trouble shooting questions:

Is your son able to identify the types of problems he is missing?

Does he know what steps he is supposed to do?

Have you discussed with him why he is doing the steps he is doing?

Can he circle the problems he thinks might require extra attention?

 

Either way, I think you are right to have him keep going. You might just see the problems begin to compound themselves if he does not understand why the steps are happening.

[Lanny]

IMHO moving on, without a very SOLID foundation, is not a good idea. With Algebra, I believe that is a very BAD idea.  A lack of true understanding of Algebra 1 can come back to haunt a student when taking more advanced Math courses. GL