X-post: Is my child abnormal?

[sdobis]

A quick background on my 11 yo dd: she is artistic and always coming up with amazing ideas. She's an entrepreneur. She makes $50 an hour when she sets up lemonade stands. She's a deep thinker and always has the best questions. She's also dyslexic. She recently decided to read the Percy Jackson series. Right after that, she read Moby Dick. Six months ago, she was only reading Adventure Time and My Little Pony graphic novels.

 

Ok, so here's where I'm stumped. For the longest time, she struggled with identifying basic items. She couldn't tell the difference between the stove and microwave, the fridge and freezer, the dresser and bedside table. It always seemed odd to me. Now she seems to have figured those out, but she still cannot figure out days and months. She learned both the days and months through songs when she was in first grade. Now the only way she knows them is to sing the songs. She still has a hard time reading a clock as well. The concept of time seems to elude her, and she just doesn't care. 

 

Does anybody have a child like this? My husband seems concerned which always concerns me. He very willingly lets me homeschool, but I'm always worried that one day He will insist we put her in public school

[Jean in Newcastle]

You need to schedule a neuro-psych testing.  In our state we can request testing through the public schools (which is free but is not always comprehensive) or we can go through our doctor.  My insurance paid 80% of it.  I asked my pediatrician for referrals to neuro-psychs in our area.  

[...................]

Sounds a lot like my dd!!  

 

She is an entrepreneur

She makes amazing things from stuff around the house, currently she is making homemade quilts and stuff animals to sell

She is artistic- she wants to be a chef

She has some kind of spelling problem- she is a terrible speller (almost hopeless but we are making some progress with A&P)

She loves to sit and watch My Little Pony yet she is also reading, discussing and understanding Virgil

She has a very hard time with the concept of time, and is always asking me what time it is

 

 

Now, the one thing that made her understand the calendar was that we had a little felt Kindy calendar that we used faithfully every single day in Kindergarten and First Grade.  Then, when I didn't put it on the wall in second grade, she HERSELF bought her own wall calendar and has kept it updated ever since and made sure we bought a new one every January. In fact, I usually buy her a big beautiful one every year at Christmas but when she has not received one, she made sure I took her to the Dollar Store on January 2nd! 

 

I think that because she cannot understand the concept in her head, understanding it visually is what has made her understand it in her head.  She still gets the months out of order.  

 

As to not knowing the difference between the fridge and the microwave, does she actually use those items regularly or do you make all her meals?  Do you work together in the kitchen and enjoy that time together?  If she actually works with you every day I would think that would be very odd and I don't have a corrolation with that to my dd.  BUT I will say, my own dd will often use the wrong word while talking because she is so busy thinking of whatever creative thing she is thinking of. But if you say, "Go get the peas out of the fridge." and she has no idea which thing is the fridge (and spent plenty of time in the kitchen) to me, that would require an evaluation.

[sdobis]

You need to schedule a neuro-psych testing.  In our state we can request testing through the public schools (which is free but is not always comprehensive) or we can go through our doctor.  My insurance paid 80% of it.  I asked my pediatrician for referrals to neuro-psychs in our area.  

 

 

Jean, 

What would they be looking for in a Neuro-psych exam? 

[...................]

Wait- I did want to add, that my dd gets weird about names of everyday items too, especially if I use inconsistent names.  In fact, we had a few near arguments over this just last week!  FOr example, I will say, "hand me that spoon" and point to a ladel.  She would get a little upset and say, "Wait...what spoon, there are no spoons here...let me go get one..." and then I would be frustrated and say, "Right over there," and go get the ladel and she will say, "I thought you wanted a spoon," and I would think that the context of the situation would show her that I meant "That spoon-like object" but to her they are not the same and it's very confusing.

 

Another example would be that I will say, "Could you please put the doll down.  I'm talking to you."  My idea was for her to take two steps, and put the doll on the bed and then make eye contact with me and continue the discussion.  She drops the doll right there on the floor (ABSOLUTELY NO DISRESPECT) and thinks that she did the right thing....

 

She is strangely an odd combination of being very abstract and very very very black and white/precise.  She is not Aspergers, gets along well with everyone etc. etc. 

 

Anyway, I am just saying that whether you should pursue neuropsych or just be more clear in your communications etc. would lie in whether she herself uses consistent terms for items, or whether she is either A. Daydreaming and not paying attention or B. COnfused because Mom is busy and using very inconsistent terminology.

[sdobis]

Sounds a lot like my dd!!  

 

She is an entrepreneur

She makes amazing things from stuff around the house, currently she is making homemade quilts and stuff animals to sell

She is artistic- she wants to be a chef

She has some kind of spelling problem- she is a terrible speller (almost hopeless but we are making some progress with A&P)

She loves to sit and watch My Little Pony yet she is also reading, discussing and understanding Virgil

She has a very hard time with the concept of time, and is always asking me what time it is

 

 

Now, the one thing that made her understand the calendar was that we had a little felt Kindy calendar that we used faithfully every single day in Kindergarten and First Grade.  Then, when I didn't put it on the wall in second grade, she HERSELF bought her own wall calendar and has kept it updated ever since and made sure we bought a new one every January. In fact, I usually buy her a big beautiful one every year at Christmas but when she has not received one, she made sure I took her to the Dollar Store on January 2nd! 

 

I think that because she cannot understand the concept in her head, understanding it visually is what has made her understand it in her head.  She still gets the months out of order.  

 

As to not knowing the difference between the fridge and the microwave, does she actually use those items regularly or do you make all her meals?  Do you work together in the kitchen and enjoy that time together?  If she actually works with you every day I would think that would be very odd and I don't have a corrolation with that to my dd.  BUT I will say, my own dd will often use the wrong word while talking because she is so busy thinking of whatever creative thing she is thinking of. But if you say, "Go get the peas out of the fridge." and she has no idea which thing is the fridge (and spent plenty of time in the kitchen) to me, that would require an evaluation.

 

I really need to get a calendar for her and practice regularly. I think it may be the visual connection that will put it all together. I don't know why I never thought about this. 

 

She does help me in the kitchen. It's not like she doesn't have a clue about what they are. She just easily mixed them up. I wonder if that may be because she is constantly thinking about "more important" things. It's good to know there are other girls like her. I personally am fascinated by her.

[EKS]

My son is like this.  When he was maybe 17, we were in the car and he exclaimed "I just realized why I always get Saturday and Sunday confused.  They're both red!"  He still confuses chicken and turkey (the meats, not the animals).

[...................]

OK, so you are saying that if you had a test, she would clearly know which one is a fridge and which one is a microwave?

 

If the answer is yes, then,

 

Are you saying that you are busy getting creative, cooking, making dinner and she just stick the cassarole in the microwave when you say fridge?

 

To me that is PERFECTLY normal for a highly creative, gifted, partly dyslexic individual!! But then again I have to unusual kids and an unusual husband...

 

:lol: SOunds like she needs to hang out with my dd....

 

Who is also fascinating (but confusing to me and sometimes frustrating too!)

[sdobis]

Wait- I did want to add, that my dd gets weird about names of everyday items too, especially if I use inconsistent names.  In fact, we had a few near arguments over this just last week!  FOr example, I will say, "hand me that spoon" and point to a ladel.  She would get a little upset and say, "Wait...what spoon, there are no spoons here...let me go get one..." and then I would be frustrated and say, "Right over there," and go get the ladel and she will say, "I thought you wanted a spoon," and I would think that the context of the situation would show her that I meant "That spoon-like object" but to her they are not the same and it's very confusing.

 

Another example would be that I will say, "Could you please put the doll down.  I'm talking to you."  My idea was for her to take two steps, and put the doll on the bed and then make eye contact with me and continue the discussion.  She drops the doll right there on the floor (ABSOLUTELY NO DISRESPECT) and thinks that she did the right thing....

 

She is strangely an odd combination of being very abstract and very very very black and white/precise.  She is not Aspergers, gets along well with everyone etc. etc. 

 

Anyway, I am just saying that whether you should pursue neuropsych or just be more clear in your communications etc. would lie in whether she herself uses consistent terms for items, or whether she is either A. Daydreaming and not paying attention or B. COnfused because Mom is busy and using very inconsistent terminology.

 

My daughter is not exactly like this, but I totally get it when you say she is abstract and then very black and white. Yep. Definitely not on the autism spectrum.

[sdobis]

OK, so you are saying that if you had a test, she would clearly know which one is a fridge and which one is a microwave?

 

If the answer is yes, then,

 

Are you saying that you are busy getting creative, cooking, making dinner and she just stick the cassarole in the microwave when you say fridge?

 

To me that is PERFECTLY normal for a highly creative, gifted, partly dyslexic individual!! But then again I have to unusual kids and an unusual husband...

 

:lol: SOunds like she needs to hang out with my dd....

 

Who is also fascinating (but confusing to me and sometimes frustrating too!)

 

For a while, she really couldn't tell me which one was which. Now she has figured it out. Maybe just repetition of these words eventually sank in. 

[Mom22ns]

For a while, she really couldn't tell me which one was which. Now she has figured it out. Maybe just repetition of these words eventually sank in. 

 

I remember from Psychology with my kids last year there being a description of this, not being able to break things into specific items within categories. So for example all motor vehicles are cars and it is difficult to categorize as car/truck/motorcycle/RV or all things that cook are ovens instead of stove/oven/microwave. There was a very specific area in the brain that controls this. I would consider an evaluation to try to find out if it is an issue she just has to deal with or if there is an instructional change you could make to help her.

[SeekingHim77]

My daughter can be kind of like this. I think the biggest thing that has helped her is that we are together all the time and we discuss everything. She is my last so it is down to just her and I most of the time. She is highly distractible and always has her head in the clouds. She's very artistic as well and is constantly thinking of the next picture she wants to draw which makes it very hard for her to concentrate on other things-like school!

 

The other day I used the word curb in a sentence and she had no idea what a curb is!!! No idea! I was shocked. She's 13.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean, 

What would they be looking for in a Neuro-psych exam? 

Has she actually been diagnosed with dyslexia?  It sounded like perhaps she hadn't been and that was part of the reason why I suggested testing.  Not knowing the names of common objects does seem a bit strange to me.  It makes me wonder if there is a speech retrieval problem.  Or if it is a categorization problem.  

 

My dd who is 13 is similarly artistic and an entreprenuer.  She is also a late bloomer.  In the past year all of a sudden she grew tremendously in her cognitive understanding.  She was behind in school but I had a gut feeling with her that she might just be slower to blossom (I'm a special ed. teacher).  She was a concrete thinker longer than "normal" as well.  She is a visual spatial learner and learns whole to parts instead of the other way around.  Changing how I school her has made a big difference.  Step by step curriculum was sheer torture for her.  

 

BTW - people can be Aspie and still relate to people.  Ds18 is very out going and social but he is still an Aspie.  He is quirky though and can be rigid in his thinking.  

[Kerileanne99]

I remember from Psychology with my kids last year there being a description of this, not being able to break things into specific items within categories. So for example all motor vehicles are cars and it is difficult to categorize as car/truck/motorcycle/RV or all things that cook are ovens instead of stove/oven/microwave. There was a very specific area in the brain that controls this. I would consider an evaluation to try to find out if it is an issue she just has to deal with or if there is an instructional change you could make to help her.

Yes, I would want to have her checked. Remember the book 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" by Oliver Sachs? He suffered from something similar, a form of visual agnosia. There are a couple of different forms, but basically there is a disconnect between what they see and their language processing.

Question: if you aren't looking at the object, say asking her to put something in the microwave or fridge (or any other example of things she gets confused) but instead ask her to identify via words which one would cook food and where she would put the food to keep it cold, can she tell you correctly?

If her knowledge of the object is sound, but she can't identify it reliably because she cant 'see' it correctly then it could be apperceptive agnosia. If they can 'see' the objects and have knowledge of it and its function but cannot identify it then it is called associative agnosia.

 

Of course, she may just be preoccupied with things much more important to her and where she puts the food is the very least of her concerns😄

 

Still, if there is concern I think it is worth taking her to a doctor. Getting to the crux of the issue can be very complicated, but an MRI can typically tell if there is reason to suspect an issue.

[sdobis]

Has she actually been diagnosed with dyslexia?  It sounded like perhaps she hadn't been and that was part of the reason why I suggested testing.  Not knowing the names of common objects does seem a bit strange to me.  It makes me wonder if there is a speech retrieval problem.  Or if it is a categorization problem.  

 

My dd who is 13 is similarly artistic and an entreprenuer.  She is also a late bloomer.  In the past year all of a sudden she grew tremendously in her cognitive understanding.  She was behind in school but I had a gut feeling with her that she might just be slower to blossom (I'm a special ed. teacher).  She was a concrete thinker longer than "normal" as well.  She is a visual spatial learner and learns whole to parts instead of the other way around.  Changing how I school her has made a big difference.  Step by step curriculum was sheer torture for her.  

 

BTW - people can be Aspie and still relate to people.  Ds18 is very out going and social but he is still an Aspie.  He is quirky though and can be rigid in his thinking.  

 

She has been diagnosed. She had severe math issues as well. At 9 years old, she couldn't point out 3 on a number line. Now she's working at grade level. She sounds a lot like your daughter. 

[sdobis]

Yes, I would want to have her checked. Remember the book 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" by Oliver Sachs? He suffered from something similar, a form of visual agnosia. There are a couple of different forms, but basically there is a disconnect between what they see and their language processing.

Question: if you aren't looking at the object, say asking her to put something in the microwave or fridge (or any other example of things she gets confused) but instead ask her to identify via words which one would cook food and where she would put the food to keep it cold, can she tell you correctly?

If her knowledge of the object is sound, but she can't identify it reliably because she cant 'see' it correctly then it could be apperceptive agnosia. If they can 'see' the objects and have knowledge of it and its function but cannot identify it then it is called associative agnosia.

 

Of course, she may just be preoccupied with things much more important to her and where she puts the food is the very least of her concerns😄

 

Still, if there is concern I think it is worth taking her to a doctor. Getting to the crux of the issue can be very complicated, but an MRI can typically tell if there is reason to suspect an issue.

 

Wow, that's a lot to think about. I'm definitely going to look into this more. I don't think it's anything that extreme, but I'll ask her the questions.

[Kerileanne99]

Wow, that's a lot to think about. I'm definitely going to look into this more. I don't think it's anything that extreme, but I'll ask her the questions.

More than likely it is nothing:)

But there are issues like that out there and if you are concerned it is worth a check!

[Jean in Newcastle]

A child who is thinking about other things might forget in the heat of the moment, but when you slow down and specifically focus on naming or categorizing things, they should be able to do it.  

 

One game I played a lot of was "I Spy".  So you could be in the kitchen and say, "I spy something that heats things up."  This doesn't necessarily give the answer since you might have a stove, oven and a toaster but it is one way to have fun describing and categorizing things.  You can also play this game with a book like the Oxford Book of Words  http://www.amazon.com/My-First-Oxford-Book-Words/dp/0199107459 Take turns being the questioner and the answerer.  

 

Another game I played a lot with dd was "Animal, Vegetable, Mineral"  (you can make up your own categories).  I started by making it simple (but then I started when she was pretty young).  I explained that vegetable was all plants but at first it is easier to really make it what we think of as vegetables, then as they get good at those you can expand the category.  Mineral in our family version means anything from nature that is not an animal or plant life.  As we got harder, it included man-made items.  You could make your own categories like "household objects" to guess from.  Another name for this type of game is twenty questions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Questions  We never counted the number of questions but just gave up when/if the child started to get frustrated.  At first, I would coach my kids on how to ask a good question.  Ie.  "You didn't ask me color questions yet."  Questions have to be answered only with yes or no but there tends to be a limit to how many colors most animals come in or plants and we tended to use it as a narrowing down question.  I also would coach them at first by reviewing what they knew.  Ie.  "Ok, you know that it is an animal.  You know that it is a mammal.  You know that it isn't a pet and is found in zoos.  Hmm.  How can we narrow it down some more?"  

 

The beauty of these games is that they can be adapted to all sorts of things.  We played "Noun, Verb or Adjective" at one point.  The things thought of for "Animal, Vegetable or Mineral" can get more complicated if you have man-made things so that you can ask questions like "is this used in communication?"  to narrow down a man-made invention.  I played with my older child and my younger and would say "This one is for ds" and he would take a turn guessing.  Then of course we would have "This one is for dd" next.  And I tailored it to their ability level.  

 

 

[Maus]

A neuro-pysch eval could pick up the subtle nuances. Most of what was identified in my DD's eval was not a big surprise, but we did learn a few pertinent things, like that she has very poor working memory, coupled with a fantastic long-term memory.

 

That does explain our frequent morning conversations, which involve me telling her every five minutes for half an hour to go get in the shower, and then finally, when she no longer has time to shower, I'll say, no time left to shower, go get in the car, and she gets in the shower!

 

She can read a digital clock, in the sense of correctly reading off the number ("It's five forty-five") but does not have any real concept of what "five minutes" is.