Slache Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've been debating back and forth about how to teach Greek to my kids as I'm not crazy about any of the curricula out there. Hey Andrew is my top choice right now because of the built in review and not having to switch between curricula. I feel that it could easily be followed up by GP Greek, and then by Athenaze. My other thought, bare with me here, is to use my college level text, stretch it out, and come up with worksheets and games myself. I thought I would use phonogram cards Orton Gillingham style, copywork and vocabulary games for k-2. I would also begin readings as soon as it was appropriate, and read out loud to them. I would then take the content of Basics of Biblical Greek (Koine), and stretch it out over 3 or 4 years. Is that crazy? The thing is that I'm meeting with two men every other week to study BBG and they really don't study so I'm ahead of them and basically teaching it to them. I truly believe a 3rd grader is capable of digesting this information. Certainly better than they are! Has anyone done something like this? We will be moving slowly so it's not like I will be overburdened with work, and I know the material is good so I won't do a terrible job. Right? Update in post 14 :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It sounds good to me! I will be starting my son off with high school level German texts because I don't like the kid stuff that is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 It sounds good to me! I will be starting my son off with high school level German texts because I don't like the kid stuff that is available. Good. Then you can tell me in 3 years if it's a terrible idea. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rutheart Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm doing high school Spanish with my 5th grader this year. If you slow the pace down enough so it's not overwhelming, and the kid gets a multi-sensory language experience, I don't see the downside (other than extra work for yourself). I took the old workbook that went with the text and typed it all up, only changing exercises when they were age inappropriate, and trying to inject humor whenever possible. After the first chapter, I had all the accent/special character shortcuts memorized and it went much faster. I'm not especially creative, so it helped to have a starting place for written exercises. It still took me a couple weeks to type up enough to last the full school year. Would he be interested in writing a comic strip in Greek? That would give him a chance to practice writing new vocab/grammar, without you having to create something for each occasion. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 You absolutely could do that, though it will take a fair bit of your time. I speak from long, long experience on that :001_smile:. My first ever smiley on this board, I think. But it will take less time if you only do it for your child, than it will if you decide to turn it into a curriculum for others to use. For your own child, you are always there to amplify if needed. But once it's worked for you and your child, you may want to formalize it and share it with us! It's an exciting thing that you are thinking of doing! Since I've written a language program (Latin), your fun question is setting my mind spinning. Pronunciation will come first. Once upon a time I did a little New Testament Greek using Machen's text, and for my brain, the very first thing I needed to do was divide the Greek letters up into categories: the ones that look just like English and sound the same, too; the ones that look the same but make a sound we wouldn't expect, but it's a sound we have in English; the ones that look different but make a sound we have in English; and the ones that are just different in every way. There may have been one other. Learning them in something like this order, least obscure to most obscure, helped me. To teach pronunciation and to be sure it's sinking in as a system, a game I made up for Great Latin Adventure is Latin Code. It's fun and it's helpful. Once I taught the sounds, I would take Latin letters, complete with macrons, and arrange them into words that look like Latin, but aren't: instead, if you pronounce correctly, you will hear English words. E.g. "laek" sounds like "like." "Say you like Snoopy" can be spelled so it looks Latin and uses diphthongs and macrons! I think the same would work with Greek, and it's a lot of fun. That way you can tell if the phonics is sinking in in a way that will let your child pronounce any Greek word correctly. Another fun way to test pronunciation is to ask children whether a given Latin/Greek word rhymes with a given English word. If they can decode the foreign pronunciation accurately, they will know. Multiple choice and easy to grade! I don't know if your desire is to do a parts-to-whole approach, but if it is, then any Latin program that carefully unfolds Latin grammar--not only mine, but any that suits your child's age and covers grammar in a sequence that makes sense to you--could serve as a very helpful guide to you as you decide what types of exercises and drills to include and how much repetition you need to include to make sure concepts are mastered before you move on. I am totally convinced that the right amount of drilling and repetition is key. Younger children can do an amazing amount, they just need the right amount of review of concepts. It doesn't have to be boring, but it does have to happen. The main problem with a college or high school pace for a younger child is that too many case uses will probably be introduced at one time. You need a way to introduce the concept of a declension, but then deal with the case uses much more gradually. That's where a parallel program that has already tackled that could help you a lot. For vocabulary, I love that you want to do actual flash cards. Writing them out is good for the students. Multi-sensory! I hope it's not out of order, since my writing experience is with Latin and not Greek, but since they are both inflected languages I believe the advantages would be the same: I've found that a vocabulary quiz on new vocabulary done no later than halfway through the translation work for the chapter (for you, the translation you've designed for your new grammar concept) is a huge, huge help. Children just are not learning as much if they are always having to look up the words. It competes with the syntax for brain cells. In GLA I introduce vocabulary, then do derivatives before any translation. Meanwhile they are learning the vocabulary; we start a translation worksheet, while they still get to look up words; they keep learning the vocab. and get tested on it (and the grade counts!); then they do the rest of their translation and a chapter quiz, with all the vocab. under their belt by then. The same pattern might work for you as well, since the grammar of the languages is so similar. (And since the target ages are similar.) Please keep us posted on what you do! There's a need for Greek! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 You absolutely could do that, though it will take a fair bit of your time. I speak from long, long experience on that :001_smile:. My first ever smiley on this board, I think. But it will take less time if you only do it for your child, than it will if you decide to turn it into a curriculum for others to use. For your own child, you are always there to amplify if needed. But once it's worked for you and your child, you may want to formalize it and share it with us! It's an exciting thing that you are thinking of doing! Since I've written a language program (Latin), your fun question is setting my mind spinning. Pronunciation will come first. Once upon a time I did a little New Testament Greek using Machen's text, and for my brain, the very first thing I needed to do was divide the Greek letters up into categories: the ones that look just like English and sound the same, too; the ones that look the same but make a sound we wouldn't expect, but it's a sound we have in English; the ones that look different but make a sound we have in English; and the ones that are just different in every way. There may have been one other. Learning them in something like this order, least obscure to most obscure, helped me. To teach pronunciation and to be sure it's sinking in as a system, a game I made up for Great Latin Adventure is Latin Code. It's fun and it's helpful. Once I taught the sounds, I would take Latin letters, complete with macrons, and arrange them into words that look like Latin, but aren't: instead, if you pronounce correctly, you will hear English words. E.g. "laek" sounds like "like." "Say you like Snoopy" can be spelled so it looks Latin and uses diphthongs and macrons! I think the same would work with Greek, and it's a lot of fun. That way you can tell if the phonics is sinking in in a way that will let your child pronounce any Greek word correctly. Another fun way to test pronunciation is to ask children whether a given Latin/Greek word rhymes with a given English word. If they can decode the foreign pronunciation accurately, they will know. Multiple choice and easy to grade! I don't know if your desire is to do a parts-to-whole approach, but if it is, then any Latin program that carefully unfolds Latin grammar--not only mine, but any that suits your child's age and covers grammar in a sequence that makes sense to you--could serve as a very helpful guide to you as you decide what types of exercises and drills to include and how much repetition you need to include to make sure concepts are mastered before you move on. I am totally convinced that the right amount of drilling and repetition is key. Younger children can do an amazing amount, they just need the right amount of review of concepts. It doesn't have to be boring, but it does have to happen. The main problem with a college or high school pace for a younger child is that too many case uses will probably be introduced at one time. You need a way to introduce the concept of a declension, but then deal with the case uses much more gradually. That's where a parallel program that has already tackled that could help you a lot. For vocabulary, I love that you want to do actual flash cards. Writing them out is good for the students. Multi-sensory! I hope it's not out of order, since my writing experience is with Latin and not Greek, but since they are both inflected languages I believe the advantages would be the same: I've found that a vocabulary quiz on new vocabulary done no later than halfway through the translation work for the chapter (for you, the translation you've designed for your new grammar concept) is a huge, huge help. Children just are not learning as much if they are always having to look up the words. It competes with the syntax for brain cells. In GLA I introduce vocabulary, then do derivatives before any translation. Meanwhile they are learning the vocabulary; we start a translation worksheet, while they still get to look up words; they keep learning the vocab. and get tested on it (and the grade counts!); then they do the rest of their translation and a chapter quiz, with all the vocab. under their belt by then. The same pattern might work for you as well, since the grammar of the languages is so similar. (And since the target ages are similar.) Please keep us posted on what you do! There's a need for Greek! Wow. So much good advice here. Thank you so much. I was just thinking about sharing it before I came back here. You've given me a lot to think about. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5wolfcubs Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 For vocabulary, I love that you want to do actual flash cards. Writing them out is good for the students. Multi-sensory! I just wanted to say that I :001_wub: flashcards. And the Great Latin Adventure -- both my now 18yo and now 15yo went through 1 & 2. When I was going through my saved homeschool stuff, I finally recycled their student pages because I really didn't want to unpack them after we move (posted about that in the KonMari thread), but I did spend a bit of time reminiscing about how much we had all enjoyed/learned with the program! Slache -- your plan for Greek sounds great! The more invested you are in the language, the more your kids should learn! And I do hope you will produce a curriculum! A few of my kids enjoyed Elementary Greek (I taught 1 & 2 at a co-op) and my 15yo went on to do year with Athenaze via the Lukion Project, but EG wasn't a good fit for all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 You're very welcome, Slache! Most of this you don't have to have all figured out right away--I was thinking your child is already grade 3, but I think I missed that she is only in K at present and you are thinking K-2 first? The pronunciation part will be fun to work on during those years, plus learning vocabulary words. If you'd like the PDF of the pronunciation chapter from Great Latin Adventure, pm me and I'll send it to you. It has more types of exercise than I described here and you could figure out a Greek version. The part about translation and a whole "chapter" sequence applies more to what you'll be doing a bit later, maybe grade 3 or 4. So you have time to plan. I'd just recommend that you choose your vocabulary carefully now, thinking what your language goals are. In GLA I tried to choose words that would see a lot of use in the program. Young children are good memorizers but they still only have so much space. Why use it on words you or they won't care about? If you are interested in New Testament Greek then you might want to work up vocabulary lists from some of the easier-to-read sections of the Bible, like John 1. Decide whether you want to teach vocabulary from all declensions at once, or one declension at a time. Well, you will also have the lists from that adult text to guide you . . . I'd encourage you to have her learn the full "vocabulary list" entry of every word while you are at it. This will help so much later and is more easily done from the beginning. So, nominative s., genitive s., and gender in Latin. I don't recall for sure at present, but I think it's the same in Greek. Knowing these forms in Latin tells which declension a noun belongs to, and therefore which endings to use when declining the noun. Something similar happens in other inflected languages. Likewise for verbs, you might as well teach all the principal parts while you are at it, for similar reasons. To me the challenging part is what to offer if by grade 2 she wants to see some sentences! She won't be ready for grammar explanations in much detail but you could certainly introduce sentences consisting of subject plus is plus predicate nominative. There you wouldn't have to explain cases yet! Likewise subject plus transitive verb. Or just transitive verbs! A whole sentence in each form! Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 5wolfcubs, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And that you're a fan of flash cards! Just writing out that phrase brings back memories. I actually spent time on GLA doing things like choosing a spelling of "flash cards"--with or without the space--I think I settled for with--putting it on my editing standards list, and sticking to it. Details, details. The strange things authors do behind the scenes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 I just wanted to say that I :001_wub: flashcards. And the Great Latin Adventure -- both my now 18yo and now 15yo went through 1 & 2. When I was going through my saved homeschool stuff, I finally recycled their student pages because I really didn't want to unpack them after we move (posted about that in the KonMari thread), but I did spend a bit of time reminiscing about how much we had all enjoyed/learned with the program! Slache -- your plan for Greek sounds great! The more invested you are in the language, the more your kids should learn! And I do hope you will produce a curriculum! A few of my kids enjoyed Elementary Greek (I taught 1 & 2 at a co-op) and my 15yo went on to do year with Athenaze via the Lukion Project, but EG wasn't a good fit for all of them. 1. We heart flashcards too. 2. Don't link to a thread I started in a thread I started. It proves I'm on here *way* too much. 3. Thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I have done this for Spanish, so I don't have any specific ideas to offer, but a few general thoughts. I didn't go into it intentionally, I just thought we might add well get started with some of the basics, and it has evolved from there. The larger variety of resources I use, the more successful we are, even though they are not aligned at all. So, we may watch a video one day, Do a grammar lesson two days, read aloud to each other another day, do a fill-in-the-blank activity a different day. I have more resources than days, so occasionally I can shake up the routine. We are NOT happy flashcard users here, just easing into it now in 5th, so be careful that part stays fun, because what a good tool. I tried to use upper level texts at a slower rate but ran into a few issues. One was that the vocabulary in the first few chapters was all school-related. Then the next chapter would be introductions, eating out, buying tickets, and maybe awkward boy/girl conversations, none of which my dc could relate to. Surely Greek is presented differently, surely. Another issue I ran into was just the volume of material presented was too much, without enough practice. There was also too much dependence on learning grammar rules and applying then in rote fashion for my early elementary kids to handle. Anyway, these were all things I could overcome by presenting the material in a more organic way. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I am having mine go through Hake Grammar books and then I want to use BBG or Hebrew with them. I am hoping to study ahead of them. I don't know what age my third child will be when he finishes the grammar books, but I am thinking it is possible that he could be halfway through fifth grade (11) when he starts it so I'm hoping he will be mature enough then...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I'd like to add something in case I confuse anyone. What I've suggested to Slache above is the way I'd go about teaching a child without a curriculum. It amounts to making up a child-friendly curriculum! I've done some Spanish self-study (see blog below) but there the way I went about it reflects my being an adult, and an adult with a language background, and an odd, determined sort of adult. What I did there might work with a much older independent learner, but not a third-grader! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 I've been thinking about this constantly since I first posted. I've decided that I'm definitely doing this, and making it available for purchase if I feel that I do it well. I know for sure that I will use an OG approach with copywork for the first few years. I had intended to begin in Kindergarten, but I don't want to add to the phonograms that are currently being introduced (we're doing 2 a week so that would be 4 phonograms a week in 2 different languages), so for us that's 1st grade. I don't know yet if I will continue on with grammar because by the time he's old enough there might not be a need. I can see Greek For Children meeting my needs. Maybe. The purpose of what I want to do is to get children intimately acquainted with the basic structure of the language so that advanced studies (grammar) are made accessible at a young age without frustration or moving too quickly. I hope that makes sense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Sounds great, good on you! I'm doing something somewhat similar with Russian for my kiddos. Our laptop died so our Rosetta Stone is out of action. I had wanted something more to supplement anyway, like a workbook. Now, I don't speak any Russian, so I'm learning as I go too. My husband speaks a little of a similar language, but is no help lol! So, I picked up Russian Made Simple at a garage sale for $1 and started breaking down the lessons and exercises into child-bite-size, teach to the student, full of pictures and puzzles and games, workbook pages! I've done 24 lessons so far and am really happy with it. Things are crazy presently so I'm behind on making the next lot but I plan to continue and keep it going as a supplement to RS (when we finally get it up and running again - my kids liked that too). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Slache, it's exciting that you've decided to take the plunge! If I could give you just a few logistical hints, both of these helped me in managing the (pretty big) Great Latin Adventure project: --once you produce a chapter that you think is excellent, figure out what is excellent about it and then make a checklist for yourself to use in evaluating and polishing later chapters (e.g. "re-used vocabulary words from previous several chapters along with the new words in the new chapter sentences," or "worksheet has review questions along with new material," or "exercises test all forms," or whatever is important to you) --every time you find yourself scratching your head and having to look something up--a spelling or punctuation or formatting issue--record the decision you made on a editing standards checklist. ("Flashcard" vs. "flash card . . . " and on and on!) The same issue is bound to come up another time and it's easier to check your list of decisions and standards than to try to find the other place in your draft where you encountered the same issue to see what you did there. This is an easy (well, not easy, but doable!) way to produce uniformity. You will be not just the writer, but the editor, and both jobs matter to the end user! LMD, I was a Russian major--glad to have someone doing something for Russian. I've been asked, but haven't done it. Latin is it for now! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks Classical Katharine! I'm quite sure it's nowhere near the standard you've set - so if you ever do Russian I'll be thrilled! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I I know for sure that I will use an OG approach with copywork for the first few years. The purpose of what I want to do is to get children intimately acquainted with the basic structure of the language so that advanced studies (grammar) are made accessible at a young age without frustration or moving too quickly. I hope that makes sense. Given that ancient Greek is almost completely phonetic, why bother with "phonograms"? I'm not even sure what a Greek phonogram would be -- one per letter + the dipthongs? English needs it because it is such a mongrel language. Also, I'm curious what you consider the "basic structure of the language", and how much can be understood by young children. My experience is that even pretty basic grammatical concepts like indirect objects are difficult concepts for young ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Given that ancient Greek is almost completely phonetic, why bother with "phonograms"? I'm not even sure what a Greek phonogram would be -- one per letter + the dipthongs? English needs it because it is such a mongrel language. Also, I'm curious what you consider the "basic structure of the language", and how much can be understood by young children. My experience is that even pretty basic grammatical concepts like indirect objects are difficult concepts for young ones. I plan to take one year to cover the sounds of letters, diphthongs, irregular diphthongs and gamma nasals slowly so they really sink in and are not a hindrance to grammar studies. All of the curriculum I've seen either covers this too quickly or takes too long to teach. There is no reason to take longer than 10 minutes a day. There is no reason for $100 in bells and whistles for the basics. This will also give me the ability to teach many vocabulary words before we begin grammar so he'll have a nice chunk of the language under his belt. I know it will take longer to create this curriculum than teach something that already exists, but then I'll have the resource for further children and I think it's worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Good luck! Robby is probably doing Greek School staring Sept. 8th, but I don't even know the alphabet. The first year is just songs and games. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 My experience is that even pretty basic grammatical concepts like indirect objects are difficult concepts for young ones. I'd say that for most children--even with a good head start on English grammar--something like the indirect object in an inflected language is a topic for grade 4 at the earliest. (Yes, I know a few exceptions, but they are . . . exceptions.) You can easily teach the paradigms earlier, and you could teach the words "the indirect object goes into the dative case" (or whatever the--ahem--case may be in the target language), but to actually translate sentences that contain indirect objects, most children won't be ready until grade 4. From experience with GLA I'd say that using syntax can begin (slowly) in grade 3, and that before that, if you do anything, you do pronunciation, vocabulary, and forms. The more words the merrier--they will only make things easier once it comes time to translate--however then the question of how to structure the program for those who come to it a bit older and need to make up the vocabulary (as in acquire, not invent) becomes worth pondering! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Thanks Classical Katharine! I'm quite sure it's nowhere near the standard you've set - so if you ever do Russian I'll be thrilled! Thank you, LMD, for your kind words! But I look forward to seeing how you do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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