Latin - What's the Big Picture?

[SnMomof7]

I have two years of high school Latin...using Cambridge texts :/. I still can't wrap my mind around the FULLNESS of Latin. What is the entire scope and sequence (as it were). How can I count the cost? How much material is there to cover (really)?

 

Is there a chart or mind map somewhere that shows what -overall- the Latin elementary grammar consists of and how it is interrelated? I'm going bonkers trying to figure this out!

[Laura Corin]

From my point of view:

 

You are heading towards being able to read original Latin texts.  So you need enough grammar and vocabulary to do that.  

 

For me, at school, that was Cambridge Latin, heavily supplemented, from age 12 to 16, at which point we had read some of Aeneid IV and some poetry.

 

For Calvin, that was 2 1/2 books of Latin Prep at home (over about three years) then a couple of years of Cambridge Latin (heavily supplemented) at school, with a similar level of reading of original texts, by age 16.  He then spent another two years studying classical texts, including prosody.  He is now studying Classics at university.

 

For Hobbes, that is a couple of years essentially going over Latin Prep 1 (partly at home and partly at school), then four years of Cambridge Latin (heavily supplemented) and similar texts to the above by age 16.  I don't know if he will continue past that.

 

I hope that helps.

[Classical Katharine]

Maybe what you are looking for is a chart that shows all the conjugations and declensions? Or at least, would that be a starting point for you? Cambridge is more an inductive program and you might not ever have been shown all the conjugations and declensions. That can be disorienting as you may lack a sense of "how much further is there to go." A parts-to-whole or grammar-translation program is more likely to map things out for you.

 

But then again, "how much further is there to go" depends on what you want to get out of Latin. Could you share what your goals are?

 

On "counting the cost," is that financial, or time costs that you are wondering about?

 

I hope I'm not rattling off questions here--I'm doing this while also chatting with Vonage :-(

 

Okay, a P.S. now. Please don't let this stress you. You've come to a great place to clarify your goals. There's more than one set of legitimate goals for Latin study and only you can know what your family's goals are. Is it to go all the way and read the classics? Or is it to go part way, learn Latin roots, learn English derivatives, learn how an inflected language works, and then leverage that in the study of a modern inflected language? Or . . . other?

 

Once you know your goals, you can think about what approach will best serve your goals, and how much time to spend on it. Your main choices will be a grammar-translation program; or an inductive program; or maybe a G-T program followed by an inductive program (I have seen that sequence work well.) But it's hard to think that through till you know your goals.

 

(Well, I've also seen people do inductive programs, get confused, and move to a G-T program. Starting inductive is definitely hard for Moms with no Latin background. You do have a Latin background and it's in a more inductive program, so maybe it would work for you. Except that, from the sounds of it, maybe you didn't feel completely comfortable with the Cambridge approach . . . since it left you feeling a bit at sea.)

 

Hope that helps--come back and tell us some more!

 

 

 

 

[fourisenough]

Not sure if this is what you mean, but the Trivium Table: Latin from Classical Conversations Bookstore is a high-level reference chart that helped me wrap my brain around Latin. Here is the product description:

 

Learning Latin just got a little easier! Take the mystery out of Latin with this easy-to-understand quick reference for parents and students. Learn the grammar of Latin--noun declensions, verb conjugations, and beginning vocabulary. This laminated resource folds to fit nicely into your notebook for the year. This resource is designed to complement Latin studies from Foundations through Challenge.

 

Obviously, it could be used by any student of Latin, not just those in CC. HTH.

[Classical Katharine]

Something else that could help is to get your hands on a single-volume grammar-translation program for college, like Wheelock's--any edition--not to use necessarily, but to flip through. Take a look at the table of contents and see how many of the topics you already recognize. Take a look at the declension and conjugation tables in the back of the text and see how many you recognize. That may give you some sense of how far you have to go.

 

For that matter, you could read the first few chapters to see how a grammar-translation program works: grammar described and presented explicitly first in each chapter, then drills and readings that feature the constructions that have just been introduced. This will probably help you see whether you would feel more comfortable with a G-T approach, though of course you'd choose an age-appropriate text for your children. You have probably encountered lots of endings and lots of constructions, but maybe without ever having seen what larger whole they are part of: where endings fit into a declension table, or "hey, we learned two uses for the ablative but there are six more," or so on.

 

Getting most of the way through Wheelock's in grade 9, long, long ago, meant ready to start Caesar. Not everyone needs to go that far.

 

I mention Wheelock's just b/c you can find a used copy on Amazon or at a used bookstore or maybe see it at a library.

 

BTW Laura is the best person to comment on her children's experience, but I'll just mention that Latin Prep is G-T. So she had her (very accomplished) children do some G-T before they began an inductive program.

[Classical Katharine]

If you do go with a chart, you may want to consider whether macrons are important to you before you choose one. I think they are helpful myself, for pronunciation.

 

Here is a chart summarizing the grammar of Wheelock's by one of the Wheelock's editors. It covers forms and syntax:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wheelocks-Latin-GrammarQuick-Edition/dp/0865166668/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=19E8PXZ4N7Q3JVDZK6BY

 

Here is one that puts everything into nice colored tables, but may cover just forms, rather than syntax as well--less intimidating but less complete:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Charts-Wheelocks-Latin-Jessica/dp/1501097741/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435341251&sr=8-2&keywords=latin+grammar+chart

 

And here's the C. C. Trivium Table an earlier poster mentioned--it does use long signs, as do the two previous:

 

http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/trtala.html

 

I do think though that reading a few chapters of a G-T program would be very clarifying for you as you think about an approach.

 

 

 

[Mystie]

You might also check out the Classical Academic Press catalog online and read what they say about the scope and sequence of their program, or their FAQ comparing LFC with Memoria Press: http://classicalacademicpress.com/product-support/#latina_christiana

 

Or here's the scope and sequence for Visual Latin: http://www.compassclassroom.com/visual-latin/lessons/

[8filltheheart]

Here is my POV fwiw.  I do not understand studying Latin grammar throughout elementary school.  For us the big picture is rather simple.  About 2-3 yrs spent mastering Latin grammar (middle school is a good time for this). Followed by reading prose and poetry.  (My kids have found poetry more difficult than prose.)    

[Classical Katharine]

8Fill makes a good point. Not everyone needs to start in grade 2 or 3. If one of your concerns is to spend less total time on the subject yourself, as a Mom of a large family, you may want to start a bit later.

 

Often a publisher has different books available depending on what age you want to start. Usually there is some repetition if you look at the series as a whole. That's so that older beginners can enter with an age-appropriate series and begin from the beginning, but then go at a faster pace. You could look at all this and think you have to do it all. No, pick a starting age and a suitable program that begins at the beginning for that age group. (Or one that works for the ages of a couple of your children at the same time. Often children a year or two apart can be taught from the same level.)

 

Grade 5 or 6 can be a great time to start, and what you didn't do earlier, you'll do anyway!

[Laura Corin]

 

 

BTW Laura is the best person to comment on her children's experience, but I'll just mention that Latin Prep is G-T. So she had her (very accomplished) children do some G-T before they began an inductive program.

 

Yes.  Definitely.  Especially if you don't have a really solid Latin background, I think that whole-to-parts programmes are very hard to use successfully.  When I and my children used Cambridge, it was with experienced specialist teachers who had the grammar background to supplement as necessary.  For me, coming back to Latin decades after my last contact with the language, teaching from a parts-to-whole (grammar and translation) programme was the only way for me to avoid confusion.

 

FWIW, age ten is a good time to start using Latin Prep, so I don't think that Latin before then has any particular value (ETA: unless it's for fun and the child really wants to).  We used the earlier ages for learning a living language.

[SnMomof7]

Thanks for all your help and input ladies.

I loved Latin in school and considered pursuing the classics at University but I decided not to go. At all.

 

Anyway ;). My Latin teacher (who was also my English teacher, what a dear, sweet fellow) did supplement with conjugation and declension chants which were immensely helpful, but I never saw everything pulled together systematically. I don't really understand where the boundaries and connections are.

 

I think a grammar translation approach would be helpful in clearing up some of the muddiness. In fact, I can glimpse what a sense of order understanding the completeness of Latin grammar could instil in ones mind.

 

Memorizing the paradigms is not an issue. I can do memory work, better now than I could in high school (ah, scripture memory practice). The connections and completeness are what I am after. And I want it for MYSELF. Ahem. I suppose my goal is Latin grammar for it's own sake, the joy of translation, and the sense of accomplishment.

 

To be fair, my oldest wants Latin for her foreign language credit in high school (I was a bit surprised, but she wants to study in health care related fields somewhere). I do want to brush up a bit in order to help her. After a couple of failed starts in early elementary (and as a result of very limited time) I have thoroughly given up on teaching small ones Latin. Our LA choices do contain built in roots work in 7th-8th for children who don't desire Latin.

 

Perhaps a grammar reference chart is what I need after all. Has anyone seen this one?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1572228350?vs=1

 

Amazon.ca has fewer options, and shipping can become horrific to Canada.

 

I'd also like to get my hands on Wheelock's. I'm starting to feel like there is an end to Latin grammar and that it is possible to get there.

[Classical Katharine]

Jennifer, I'm glad that it's starting to seem more doable now that you've read everyone's two cents. Hurrah!

 

The chart you mention is highly rated at Amazon but one reviewer mentioned that the verb forms lack long signs. (That's why I didn't link to it up above.) If you're sure you don't care about macrons, it might work for you.

 

(Usually programs that teach classical pronunciation will give you macrons. They are a great help to pronunciation for beginners, and give confidence to the teacher, too. Books that use ecclesiastical pronunciation may or may not supply them.)

 

Among grammar-translation programs for middle schoolers, Latin Prep and Great Latin Adventure use macrons throughout, and teach classical pronunciation (just like Wheelock's). Latin Alive probably includes macrons. I am not sure about First Form.

 

If you do want macrons, you'll want to be sure that they are everywhere in the book, and don't appear only on the vocabulary lists. You can't always predict their location in different forms of the same word, so if you want and need them, you want and need them throughout the book.

 

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

Amazon.ca has Wheelocks for under $20, including shipping. I have the sixth edition, which looks pretty great. It has self tutorial exercises and answers (!) for every chapter. You could totally use it for self study.

IMHO, too many people conflate memorizing paradigms with learning grammar.  While memorization of the paradigms is required, I consider grammar to be the rules that govern when you use which paradigm.  Understanding these rules is just as important as the rote memorization.  While I'm not sure about Professor WIlliam Dowling's "The Dowling Method", if you want the big picture, his 10 concepts on this page: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/Latin.htmare a good place to start.

 

Wheelock's Latin is a great reference, even if you don't use it as a textbook.  I picked up a used copy of the 6th edition for $5.  There's no need to buy a new copy, or even the most recent edition, and you can save money this way.

 

 

[Classical Katharine]

IMHO, too many people conflate memorizing paradigms with learning grammar.  While memorization of the paradigms is required, I consider grammar to be the rules that govern when you use which paradigm.  Understanding these rules is just as important as the rote memorization. 

 

I completely agree. Charts and chants don't teach you how to use the noun cases. It's the case uses, especially, that make Latin so different from English and so much more like Russian or Greek. Even among grammar-translation programs, some tilt more towards forms and vocabulary, and some tilt more towards syntax.

 

Syntax is where the fun and beauty are! But we still have to know the forms, hence the charts.

 

[SnMomof7]

I've been picking at the Dowling article the past few days actually :). Here's another helpful link as well:

http://rustymason.com/edu/lang/latin/latin_chants.pdf

[Classical Katharine]

Maybe this helps to tie it all together--the charts and the syntax. I worked this out when I was writing for children:

 

"The ending of a noun tells the noun's case. The case of a noun tells what noun jobs it can do."

 

The OP knows, but for any readers who don't: In Latin we usually can't know the job a noun is doing from word order--as we usually can in English--and so we have to have another way of discerning what role a noun is playing in a Latin sentence. Enter: endings!

 

So the bottom line is that we learn the endings for the different declensions because we need to be able to recognize a noun's case, and we need to know a noun's case in order to know what role the noun is playing in the sentence.

 

Of course, some endings can denote more than one case, and many cases can do more than one job. So then we also need to learn the different "case uses" or what noun jobs a given case performs.

 

Different programs take different paths through this landscape, so it can be hard to tell "how far am I from being done" when you are comparing one program to another or moving from one approach to another. (This is for Jennifer again.) But basically, you can check and see how many of the endings you know--that's where the charts come in--but you also need to see how many of the case uses have you learned--and that's where an actual textbook comes in. And I haven't even said anything about verbs, but that's a bit simpler.

 

(One program might have you major on the forms, the chants, the endings, but put off case uses. Another may major more on case uses and less on forms. You'll have different areas you need to supplement to get "all the way there" depending on what approach your first program took.)

 

HTH!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kloumc]

I suppose my goal is Latin grammar for it's own sake, the joy of translation, and the sense of accomplishment.

 

Jennifer,

 

I like how you've been pondering the "big picture" of Latin instruction. This is a good summertime thing to do! I share your goals in teaching Latin with the addition of building their English vocabulary from Latin roots!  For me the choice of Latin teaching materials has made all the difference in accomplishing those goals - and I've tried several!

 

I presently teach 2nd year Latin in a homeschooling co-op and LOVE Latin Road to English Grammar II by Barbara Beers. I see that you still have several younger children (congrats on the birth of twins!) A primer program that is excellent and prepares the younger mind for meatier Latin programs and yet still accomplishes the goals you mentioned is The Great Latin Adventure (www.classicallegacypress.com). I started my own children in this as early as 2nd or 3rd grade after they became solid readers in English and had some basic grammar down. One aspect of this program that I liked better over other programs is that it had my students translating simple sentences early on and that was so important to my younger children. It gave them that sense of accomplishment and thrill of translation. It also has a lot of derivative work woven into the lessons which helps to build their English vocabulary.

[SnMomof7]

The passive voice, subjunctive mood, perfect system conjugations of sum, systematic work with pronouns: a few areas that appear to need tackling after I dust off the rest.

[composr]

I'll just chime in very briefly here. Though in general, I oppose Grammar-Translation methods for any language instruction, most Latin resources utilise this method enthusiastically. The best G-T book  I have seen is old, but extremely thorough and is a Serial-Oral G-T method (emphasizing vast amounts of practise in putting forms to use practically. It also happens to be public domain, which is a huge plus to me ;)

 

A Practical Grammar of the Latin Language by George J. Adler:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GJgAAAAAYAAJ&hl=en

 

Recordings walking through the entirety of the above, in Restored Classical Pronunciation:

https://sites.google.com/site/janualinguae/home/adler

 

I love talking about this topic, but don't want to prattle on past the main point. The above text is a pretty close complete survey of grammar, so it's not a bad reference in the least. HTH :D