Dog folks: food question (dental plaque)

[marbel]

Last week we had to have our dog's teeth cleaned.  They sure look good now but I am hoping not to have to go through that again. (Blood work, anesthetic, high $$)  Our dog was rescued as an adult, so he has a lot of fears and doesn't like to be messed with.  Caring for his teeth is difficult.

 

The vet gave us a couple of samples of products:  Oratene water additive and some prescription food.  I don't know the name of the food - they just gave us some in a baggie.  Anyway, we used it as treats for him and he seemed to like it.   The food costs $20 for a 5 pound bag.  At the risk of getting yelled at for being cheap, well... that's a lot of money.  The food we usually buy is $30 for a 40 pound bag.   He's an active 40# dog so 5 pounds of food is not going to last very long.

 

There are lots of products that are advertised to clean dog's teeth, but, there's no way for me to know if they are really good.  I trust our vet practice.  They don't push products; if I don't buy the food they're not going to nag me.   But, they're not going to recommend something I can get cheaper at Petsmart or from Amazon, kwim?

 

We thought about buying the 5 pound bag and using it as treats rather than his regular food.  I don't know how long dog food stays fresh-tasting.  I guess we could freeze it?

 

BTW the dog is about 8 1/2 years old (vet estimated his age when we got him).  His teeth were in pretty good shape when we had them cleaned; no extractions, but the vet did squirt some antibiotics into one area and will recheck that in a few months.

 

Any comments from the dog folks?  Products you like?  Etc.

 

Thanks!

[Laura Corin]

I brush my dog's teeth every night, and give her a dental chew every day.  She previously had to have two teeth removed because of dental decay.  In the last two years, since I started the new regime, her breath is sweet and the vet is very pleased.

 

It's important to use dog toothpaste; some people use a 'finger brush' but I just use a small toothbrush.

[Spy Car]

It is a radical step, but feeding a dog a balanced raw diet (like a Prey Model type diet) will have a dramatic effect on keeping teeth white and clean, and keeping breath fresh. It also improves all other aspects of condition, like promoting a glossy coat and clear eyes, and promotes calm-energy.

 

A raw diet works two ways. One eating whole soft-edible bone (like raw chicken bones) gently cleans the teeth as a dog chews. Two, and I'm convinced it is the even greater factor, is the raw diet largely eliminates the carbohydrates/sugars that are at the root cause of tooth decay.

 

Dogs do not have the enzyme (amalyse) that converts starches in their saliva that humans and other omnivores do. So starch/ sugars start building plaque/tartar rapidly on dog's teeth. Regular brushing, and expensive de-scalings can help, but it is a band-aid rather than looking at the root problem.

 

Carbohydrates are in dog food to lower cost. Not because they are species appropriate or essential to a canine diet. They are not. Inclusion of grains and starches is the cause of many health problems in dogs. That is the real answer.

 

Bill

[Jenrae]

I have been wondering about this as well, so I will be listening in!

 

Spy Car-This diet seems like it would be very healthy for a pet, but wow, I can't imagine how expensive that would be if one had more than one big dog!

[hornblower]

I have 3 large dogs;  2 are on raw, 1 (for various ridiculously complicated health reasons) is on a kibble.

Everyone, including kibble fed guy, gets raw bones weekly. You do not have to feed raw exclusively to give a dog a bone weekly.

I would not use dental chews, I would never offer smoked bones, I would never offer rawhide.

I would offer a recreational bone.  A recreational bone is about the size of a dog's skull. You may rinse it in water first - several dogs that I've helped start using bones do better with this step (it's the human food equivalent of washing some meats to reduce bacterial load...)   They're usually sold in premium pet stores & will be labelled as a knuckle. Some are whole & some are cut down into smaller pieces for smaller dogs.

You can choose a marrow/soup bone though depending on a dog's chewing style, these sometimes aren't as good at cleaning the teeth. Some dogs just suck out marrow, others will really scrape and gnaw on the ends using their molars and premolars. Make sure it's appropriately sized and if your dog is prone to upset tummies, you might want to scoop out some of the marrow from the ends as it is rich & can be too much for some dogs. But if you have a dog with a cast iron stomach, don't. I never do with my guys....

It's normal for poops for a day or 2 after a raw bone to be different. They might be a bit runny or they might be dry & crumbly. (crumbly small dry & almost odorless poops are one of the perks of feeding raw exclusively)

 

A bone weekly will really help keep your dog's mouth clean.  My raw fed dogs have great teeth & have never had dentals. My malamute x just had her check up. She's 12 & has lovely teeth. I always get a kick of vets doing the mouth check because 9/10 times they're poised to start the dental spiel and then they look & go 'Oh. Nice teeth....'


(btw, if you find good sources, feeding raw can cost about the same as a premium kibble. Plus you save on dentals & anal gland extractions ;)  )

[Spy Car]

I have been wondering about this as well, so I will be listening in!

 

Spy Car-This diet seems like it would be very healthy for a pet, but wow, I can't imagine how expensive that would be if one had more than one big dog!

Budget-busting if one buys a commercial frozen product. I think one would need to be a millionaire to afford it. However, if one exploits the local advantages, it can be done at a reasonable cost. I'm spending about what a so-called premium kibble would cost.

 

Here in Los Angeles I get odd-bits at ethnic markets economically. And there is a butcher with a meat-truck who caters to raw feeders. In more rural places people work with ranchers, hunters, and the like. It does not have to be astronomically expensive. Dogs enjoy (and thrive on) parts most American consumers don't eat themselves. And chicken (on sale) is cheap.

 

It is not for everyone, I know. I attempt to control my enthusiasm. But what a difference!

 

My raw-fed (from 8 weeks) Vizsla has teeth that are so clean and blinding white that they almost look fake. No one would believe a picture wasn't photoshopped. His breath is fresh, the coat is glossy and soft, the eyes are clear. He has great stamina, but isn't hyper. There is no fat on him. The muscles are hard and lean. The belly does not get the subtle swelling that happens when a dog eats kibble.

 

It really does make a huge difference.

 

Bill

[marbel]

Raw food, whoa, never thought of that.   I will look into that.  

 

We can't brush his teeth.  He just won't let us - he clamps that mouth down and struggles mightily.   We do try one in a while, when he's really calm.  It took us 5 years and who knows how many different types of hair brushes to get him to relax when we brush his coat.    So there is hope for his teeth eventually, maybe. 

 

I've been meaning to get to the Asian market for various items - I will look for good bones too. 

 

Thanks! 

 

[Spy Car]

I am more risk averse to "recreational bones" than Hornblower. It depends on the dog, and how aggressively they chew, but hard bones can break or chip teeth. Some people to "rec bones" as "wreck bones."

 

The bones most commonly sold as "dog bones" (like femurs from cattle) are among the most risky for teeth. They are too hard. Better are "flat" bones like ribs and neck-bones. If one has a source for them, lamb, goat, or pig legs (from knee to hoof) are softer and safer than cattle bones.

 

Raw chicken is a great source of edible bone. For powerful dogs it can be better to serve frozen to increase the workout.

 

Parts like raw pig ears, snouts, and feet are good chews as well (anyone grossed out? :D).

 

Raw chicken or duck feet are a good chew and rich in natural glycosomine. If one can get tendon or cartilage, these are awesome as well.

 

Part of the answer is having good chews. The other part is dumping the starches and sugar that promote the decay in the first place.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

I just want to add that the first time you offer a bone, be careful - about everything LOL

In a multiple dog household, I always separate at first. Depending on how the dogs are, I might use actual physical barriers or even give the bone inside crates.  Once you're doing it a long time you'll know whether they're safe to chew beside each other or not.

In a single dog household, hands down most important thing will be to be prepared for the dog to guard this fantabulous new resource. It's the equivalent of you getting the most wonderful gift (a new SUV? something on that scale) and wanting to use & play with it & NOT wanting to share.  Eventually the dog will tire of it (about 2-4h often) and then you can bag it & either fridge it to offer the next day or freeze it & offer it back the following week.

I feed on a big old pile of washable sheets/quilts. You can also use a balcony or a washable kitchen floor.

Keep children away from a dog chewing on a bone.

Do not try to take a bone away from a dog.

Do not be alarmed if a dog growls. Just honor that, leave the dog alone, & go write down in your training plan book that you'll be working on resource guarding.

I actually can take my dog's bones away with no prob but I spend a long time on trading games with my dogs & nobody resource guards from me. If this is a bhvr you want, you can work towards it but don't expect to have it happen from the start, no more than you'd tolerate a neighbor hopping into your brand new shiny vehicle and taking it for a long ride....

If you're concerned about being to take it away, some options (ones I use with a new foster for ex) are to keep a harness & long line attached on the dog, Plus really good treats - like liver and cheddar cheese cubes. If you need to, you can pick up the end of the line and encourage the dog to come for a walk with you. Some will be really torn.  I've had dogs try to take their bone for a walk with them...

Or you can try tossing the cubes of liver & cheddar at them & seeing if they'll come to you &  you can go out together & someone else can scoop the bone into a bag & clean up the sheets.

[Spy Car]

Raw food, whoa, never thought of that. I will look into that.

 

We can't brush his teeth. He just won't let us - he clamps that mouth down and struggles mightily. We do try one in a while, when he's really calm. It took us 5 years and who knows how many different types of hair brushes to get him to relax when we brush his coat. So there is hope for his teeth eventually, maybe.

 

I've been meaning to get to the Asian market for various items - I will look for good bones too.

 

Thanks!

Do some research first. Suddenly upping dietary bone in a significant way, while still feeding kibble, can really throw off the nutritional balance of things like calcium and phosphorus.

 

A treat is one thing, big changes are another.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

oh & if you offer bones, don't be surprised if they have bloody gums after. The more frequently they have them, the less manic they get about chomping away but they still usually have a some gum redness after a rec bone.


SpyCar, we all have our little things. I'm more phobic about choking than a tooth fracture. My malamute esp will break off  pieces from softer bones & it seems inevitable that the thing she breaks is just the wrong size...... One of the reasons I was so diligent about making sure she wouldn't resource guard is that I've had to take away all sorts of frightening things from her.  It's like watching a toddler plop a marble into their mouth

 

Then there was the small piece that Bear got wedged somehow behind his molars, jamming his jaw open.  That was exciting to extract from a panicked dog. Now I alternate between small & edible (like chicken backs) and ginormous buffalo knuckles that nobody will get stuck anywhere...

What makes a good appropriate bone for a dog will depend on the dog's size & chewing style. And owner's personal foibles lol.

[marbel]

Do some research first. Suddenly upping dietary bone in a significant way, while still feeding kibble, can really throw off the nutritional balance of things like calcium and phosphorus.

 

A treat is one thing, big changes are another.

 

Bill

 

Oh yeah.  I did not mean to imply I was rushing out the door for bones today.  If you knew me, you'd know how uncharacteristic that would be.   :lol:    Reading first, for sure. 

 

[Spy Car]

oh & if you offer bones, don't be surprised if they have bloody gums after. The more frequently they have them, the less manic they get about chomping away but they still usually have a some gum redness after a rec bone.

 

 

SpyCar, we all have our little things. I'm more phobic about choking than a tooth fracture. My malamute esp will break off pieces from softer bones & it seems inevitable that the thing she breaks is just the wrong size...... One of the reasons I was so diligent about making sure she wouldn't resource guard is that I've had to take away all sorts of frightening things from her. It's like watching a toddler plop a marble into their mouth

 

Then there was the small piece that Bear got wedged somehow behind his molars, jamming his jaw open. That was exciting to extract from a panicked dog. Now I alternate between small & edible (like chicken backs) and ginormous buffalo knuckles that nobody will get stuck anywhere...

 

What makes a good appropriate bone for a dog will depend on the dog's size & chewing style. And owner's personal foibles lol.

What we can wholeheartedly agree on is that it is important to supervise and monitor dogs carefully when they are introduced to either "rec bones" or RMBs (which is "raw-speak" for the soft-edible bones wrapped in meat referred to a "raw meaty bones."

 

Some dogs are "gobblers" and would try to swallow something like a chicken or turkey neck whole. That presents a choking hazard. The best remedy for "gobblers" is to increase the size to say a chicken quarter (and maybe to serve it frozen, which I do).

 

Some dogs chew rather gently (which lowers the risks of rec bones). Some are so enthusiastic that it is scary to me (and would rule out the weight-bearing bones of cattle as a personal choice). One need to know their dog(s).

 

I also know my wife would kill me if Chester broke a tooth. I err on the side of caution.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Oh yeah. I did not mean to imply I was rushing out the door for bones today. If you knew me, you'd know how uncharacteristic that would be. :lol: Reading first, for sure.

 

Good. That is wise. There are two basic raw-models, BARF and PMR (prey model raw). When first looking into it, I feared the PMR folks might be a little "fanatical," but have pretty much been convinced that model is closest to the ideal.

 

I try to be more mindful of sourcing connective tissue (tendon, cartilage, etc) than the 80/10/10 PMR might suggest on its face (that is percentages of meat/bone/organ, respectively). I also think most PMR folks feed more than 10% bone (which is fine). Most folks learn to adjust bone percentage based on stools (which, btw, are amazing small and tend to be very low odor). If stools are too hard there is too much bone, if they are too soft bone is increased. It gets to be second nature.

 

I feed a good deal of raw oily fish (like mackerel, anchovies, and sardines) whole. This compensates for the lack of Omega 3s in "conventional" (non-grassfed) meat. Many raw feeders use fish oil as their only suppliment (for the same reason), but here I can get oily fish for as little as $1 per pound on sale, and I stock up. Pacific North West salmon and trout has special precautions necessary, do not feed these raw without understanding the fore-measures.

 

I find I really enjoy watching my dog eat. You should see the drool flow (on an otherwise non-drolly dog) when meal time comes. Chester loves it!

 

Bill

[hornblower]

just a warning that raw feeding groups can be just plain crazy.

If you've ever gone through any bottle/breast, daycare/sahm etc battles you'll see a repeat at raw/home cooked/kibble & then  within the raw community, the barf v. prey v. commercial mix battles.  Tread carefully ;)

[Spy Car]

just a warning that raw feeding groups can be just plain crazy.

 

If you've ever gone through any bottle/breast, daycare/sahm etc battles you'll see a repeat at raw/home cooked/kibble & then  within the raw community, the barf v. prey v. commercial mix battles.  Tread carefully ;)

 

I was actually expecting more craziness than I've experienced. Maybe I'm just hanging out with the wrong people? :D

 

My only "issue" is that I feel it's better, all things being equal, for a dog to get whole raw edible bone, as opposed to feeding ground bone, in order to maximize both good dental hygiene and the physical & mental stimulation that comes with chewing. Some BARF feeders buy expensive grinders (which are not approved for the purpose by manufacturers) to grind bone. I would not do this without good cause, since it undoes some of the key benefits of raw IMO. 

 

Bill

[Innisfree]

Bill and Hornblower (or others), can you recommend any good books on raw diets for beginners? I'm curious. Or is the internet the best place to learn?

[hornblower]

I think if you start on the wiki page it will give you a good overview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding 

It also lists some of the books on the subject.