Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) .... Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad S Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I think there's a lot of benefit of reading the original version, in a modern translation, by the time a student gets to high school or even well into middle school. If certain parts of the story concern you, I'd omit them rather than losing the original version. My DS will be a 9th grader next year, but we haven't settled on a translation yet. Maybe someone will have suggestions for both. (We won't, however, be using the retelling of the story in the link above.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Other than the prostitute seducing Enkidu, I cannot think of anything which would be inappropriate enough to require a retelling. By 9th grade, I cannot image a student who does not understand that sex happens, there are women who work in the sex industry, and there are men who support the women of the sex industry being one of the oldest industries in existence. There is no need to go into the cultural and social metaphor of this seduction being what "humanizes" and "socializes" Enkidu, but why not just go through that relatively small portion of the epic and get on with the rest of the story? It is rather fun to go through the three beautifully illustrated children's editions by Lucinda Zeman before reading the original. It not only gives a bit of context, but looking at cool pictures and snuggling up is just plain fun to do. It provides a bit of levity. Obviously, there is no prostitute in those. There is also a very fun "Animated Epic" of Gilgamesh on YouTube. The Animated Epics are a lot of fun. I think it is about a half hour? If I remember correctly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I agree with Brad. I'm not crazy about the one you linked. Gilgamesh is not a difficult work, so I don't see a compelling reason not to do the real thing. Here is the one my dd used in ninth grade. Her brother is going into ninth next year, and he is more a science and math kinda guy, I think he will be perfectly comfortable reading from this version as well. http://www.amazon.com/Gilgamesh-New-Rendering-English-Verse/dp/0374523835/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429504958&sr=1-3&keywords=gilgamesh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 JMO: you really don't want to miss the beauty of the language and the epic poetic form of ancient lit. -- it adds SO much to the meaning of the work, and understanding of the culture. And 9th grader is usually mature enough to be able to start handling the complexity and to learn how to slow down and read not just for action and plot line, but for language and poetic content, sound devices and literary elements, themes, etc., which are often chopped out in adapted versions. I understand that the Brian Ferry version is quite discreet about the scene of the temple pr*stitute showing Endiku the ways of love , and is frequently the recommended edition for high schoolers. The only reason I'd go with an abridged or adapted work at high school level is if you are planning on doing a number of lengthy ancient works and are going to be short on time. And if that's the case, I'd probably not abridge Gilgamesh, which would likely be the only Mesopotamian work you'd be doing in a year of ancient classics, but would go for an abridged version of one of the three epics if planning on doing The Iliad, The Odyssey, AND The Aeneid all in one year. Or maybe just excerpts out of Plato. Or just one of the three plays in the Oedipus cycle. Or… you get the idea. :) Lots of ways to condense without having to resort to adaptations… ;) That said, if an abridged or adapted version is needed for Gilgamesh, this out-of-print one is a good one for 9th grade, as it also includes some Babylonian myths: Gilgamesh and Other Babylonian Tales (Westwood). (Here's the dust cover image, if buying used from Abe.com) It maintains more of the feel of the original than the play version you linked, which feels extremely modernized in language and at a middle school level. I also personally feel very unhappy that the original poetic epic form of Gilgamesh has been forced into a play format which is *incredibly* different. JMO. :) ETA: I could see using the play version you linked as a supplement after the fact of reading, or as a prep for reading a full translation; I just wouldn't use it as a substitute for the real deal. :) Best of luck, whatever you go with! :) Warmest regards, Lori D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Add the great information from Annenberg Lerner to whatever book version you choose http://www.learner.org/courses/worldlit/gilgamesh/ We watched the video and read just about everything under the 'explore' tab. (Shout out to swimmermom/Lisa who introduced me to the resource :)) 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Add the great information from Annenberg Lerner to whatever book version you choose http://www.learner.org/courses/worldlit/gilgamesh/ We watched the video and read just about everything under the 'explore' tab. (Shout out to swimmermom/Lisa who introduced me to the resource :)) I second and third this video. As an instructor, I think it's important for you to watch before teaching Gilgamesh. The people in the video are excited about the story. I originally read the Ferry version, then watched the video and didn't understand their excitement. Then I read the Andrew George version and found that excitement. We read excerpts in the college class I'm taking this year, using the Speiser version. I would not call Gilgamesh archaic and inappropriate. The language in the George version was poetic, my favorite line being "He came a far road, was weary, found peace." Even the scene with the harlot (as she's described in the Speiser text), should be viewed in historical context. My college professor discussed how the act and how women were seen as a humanizing force, it's not about the act itself. Part of tackling the ancient texts is learning to be objective and accept them for what they meant at the time period. If we put them through modern filters, we're missing the point. Some people opt to change the Great Books sequence in high school. Ancient history and modern seem to be where people have the most hesitation. Ancients because of reading level and content, modern because much of the 20th century history is depressing and requires good critical thinking skills. If you truly are uncomfortable with your child reading these texts, you could wait a year or two for this sequence. The story of Gilgamesh is timeless, it's about friendship, transformation, and even grief, so many concepts people deal with today. ETA: Also shout out to Lisa/Swimmermom3 who introduced me to the video and George text. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Tony Garone has done a Gilgamesh concept album which we really enjoy, fyi. http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=arizonamusicclub;id=11;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egarone%2Enet%2Ftony%2Fgilgamesh%2Ehtml I'd love to see it developed into a full-on musical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I agree with Brad. I'm not crazy about the one you linked. Gilgamesh is not a difficult work, so I don't see a compelling reason not to do the real thing. Here is the one my dd used in ninth grade. Her brother is going into ninth next year, and he is more a science and math kinda guy, I think he will be perfectly comfortable reading from this version as well. http://www.amazon.com/Gilgamesh-New-Rendering-English-Verse/dp/0374523835/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429504958&sr=1-3&keywords=gilgamesh We enjoyed the David Ferry version as well; I haven't read the Andrew George version EL talks about, but you can probably compare the two on Amazon. We read it when my kids were in 7th and 9th grade. The problem with sanitized versions is that the student is often left confused or wondering what the big deal is, because integral and exciting parts of the story are left out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 We enjoyed the David Ferry version as well; I haven't read the Andrew George version EL talks about, but you can probably compare the two on Amazon. We read it when my kids were in 7th and 9th grade. The problem with sanitized versions is that the student is often left confused or wondering what the big deal is, because integral and exciting parts of the story are left out. David Ferry's book is a retelling; it is not a translation and to be honest, I think it is a bit of a soulless retelling. It is "cleaner," if that is important. Andrew George's translation is my favorite and if I understand correctly, it is one of the best translations to date. Benjamin Foster's is also good, but I believe he used George's notes as part of his work. It's critical that the student understand that there is no one "perfect" copy of Gilgamesh because it is pieced together from various stone tablets found a different times and places. It is a work in progress. If you can take the time and are interested, David Damrosch's The Buried Book, tells about the discovery of the various stone tablets. The history and the politics of archaeology were intriguing. Damrosch is also the lit professor who is in the Annenberg lecture. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Dante's Inferno brought home to me just how important good translations are. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad S Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Add the great information from Annenberg Lerner to whatever book version you choose http://www.learner.org/courses/worldlit/gilgamesh/ I second and third this video. As an instructor, I think it's important for you to watch before teaching Gilgamesh. The people in the video are excited about the story. I originally read the Ferry version, then watched the video and didn't understand their excitement. Then I read the Andrew George version and found that excitement. ... ETA: Also shout out to Lisa/Swimmermom3 who introduced me to the video and George text. David Ferry's book is a retelling; it is not a translation and to be honest, I think it is a bit of a soulless retelling. It is "cleaner," if that is important. Andrew George's translation is my favorite and if I understand correctly, it is one of the best translations to date. Benjamin Foster's is also good, but I believe he used George's notes as part of his work. It's critical that the student understand that there is no one "perfect" copy of Gilgamesh because it is pieced together from various stone tablets found a different times and places. It is a work in progress. If you can take the time and are interested, David Damrosch's The Buried Book, tells about the discovery of the various stone tablets. The history and the politics of archaeology were intriguing. Damrosch is also the lit professor who is in the Annenberg lecture. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Dante's Inferno brought home to me just how important good translations are. Thanks to all the wonderful people who've posted here! Because of your great comments, we also firmed up our plans for "Gilgamesh." We'll watch the video, read the Andrew George translation (ordered yesterday), and possibly read Damrosch's The Buried Book. Although not Gilgamesh, there's an interesting book with a similar theme on the New Testament, called The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, by Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, which I read in college in an earlier edition, and which was very good. (Given the price nowadays, you may want to try inter-library loan.) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Thanks to all the wonderful people who've posted here! Because of your great comments, we also firmed up our plans for "Gilgamesh." We'll watch the video, read the Andrew George translation (ordered yesterday), and possibly read Damrosch's The Buried Book. Although not Gilgamesh, there's an interesting book with a similar theme on the New Testament, called The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, by Bruce Metzger which I read in college, in an earlier edition, and which was very good. (Given the price nowadays, you may want to try inter-library loan.) Brad, I hope you enjoy George's translation and the Damrosch book if you get a chance. The Annenberg lecture does a great job in showing how and why "Great Books" continue to be read and continue to inspire new generations of authors, artists, playwrights, and choreographers. Thanks for the book suggestion. I'll see if our library has a copy. Ds and I could have definitely spent more time on literature of the ancient period. If anyone is wondering what to teach at the beginning for 'lit analysis," be sure your student understands the differences between epics, myths, folktales, and sagas. They should understand how "oral tradition" develops, but also know when it wasn't used, as in the case of Gilgamesh. If you have your copy of the LLoLTR, use the lesson on epics as a review. It's a great lead in to works like Gilgamesh and the Iliad. While time is really scarce when you consider all of the Greek works to delve into, we enjoyed pulling from two volumes that TOG uses: From Distant Days and Ancient Egyptian Literature. The Mesopotamia volume is written by Benjamin Foster who does a great job of discussing literary elements of Mesopotamian literature. I know, sounds boring, right? But he made us realize just how sophisticated some of the literature was. It's easy to dismiss some ancient cultures as "crude." We did not staple together the sections of the "love" poetry in the Egyptian lit book as TOG recommended. We read it. :D What was memorable for me was that at one point after reading a fun, but rather sly piece, my then 9th grade son said he could see himself and his best swim guy friend sitting around in college, having a beer, and writing something similar. My point is, is that he could connect with the author of a piece over 2,000 years old. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 David Ferry's book is a retelling; it is not a translation and to be honest, I think it is a bit of a soulless retelling. It is "cleaner," if that is important. Andrew George's translation is my favorite and if I understand correctly, it is one of the best translations to date. Benjamin Foster's is also good, but I believe he used George's notes as part of his work. It's critical that the student understand that there is no one "perfect" copy of Gilgamesh because it is pieced together from various stone tablets found a different times and places. It is a work in progress. If you can take the time and are interested, David Damrosch's The Buried Book, tells about the discovery of the various stone tablets. The history and the politics of archaeology were intriguing. Damrosch is also the lit professor who is in the Annenberg lecture. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Dante's Inferno brought home to me just how important good translations are. Um, agreed, but I didn't say we enjoyed his translation, I said we enjoyed his version - as was asked in the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad S Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 If anyone is wondering what to teach at the beginning for 'lit analysis," be sure your student understands the differences between epics, myths, folktales, and sagas. They should understand how "oral tradition" develops, but also know when it wasn't used, as in the case of Gilgamesh. If you have your copy of the LLoLTR, use the lesson on epics as a review. It's a great lead in to works like Gilgamesh and the Iliad. You're one step ahead of me! Although DS has done a little lit analysis, we should start from the beginning in the fall, so this is timely for me and probably others. Could you tell me what LLoLTR is? I did try to find it but couldn't in some abbreviation summaries like this one. Who knows, maybe it's on my bookshelf and I'm just spacing out. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Could you tell me what LLoLTR is? Literary Lessons From The Lord Of The Rings. :) And if you don't have access to that, here are a few quick articles to give you a quick run-down on epic conventions: De Pere School, K-12: Epic Conventions Ms. Effie's website: The Epic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Um, agreed, but I didn't say we enjoyed his translation, I said we enjoyed his version - as was asked in the OP. You're right, sorry about that. :tongue_smilie: In these threads, his book is often referred to as a translation and I made an assumption I shouldn't have. The Ferry book is a good option if you need a quick read or something a bit more mild. Reading one of the better translations will give you a more accurate feel for not just the story, but the actual work. You have to be willing to be in the middle of the story and have the next few lines be missing like they actually are on the tablets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 The Ferry book is a good option if you need a quick read or something a bit more mild. Reading one of the better translations will give you a more accurate feel for not just the story, but the actual work. You have to be willing to be in the middle of the story and have the next few lines be missing like they actually are on the tablets. No problem. We quite enjoyed the Ferry version. I don't think we (my kids in particular) would have loved one of the translations you talk about for the first go - I would not have had a problem with more graphic wording, but the missing lines might have sent us over the edge! For that first reading, we approached it as a great story. It worked for us - there's always that question of choosing where to spend your time! I would like to read at least some of the Foster translation someday. You know, that magical someday when I will have more time . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 No problem. We quite enjoyed the Ferry version. I don't think we (my kids in particular) would have loved one of the translations you talk about for the first go - I would not have had a problem with more graphic wording, but the missing lines might have sent us over the edge! For that first reading, we approached it as a great story. It worked for us - there's always that question of choosing where to spend your time! I would like to read at least some of the Foster translation someday. You know, that magical someday when I will have more time . . . I would still recommend George's translation over Foster's. I got lucky in that the seller sent me the Foster translation instead of the George's translation, so I got to keep that and get what I ordered. I also had some of Speiser's translation on hand and the Ferry book because SWB recommended it. Translations are such a personal choice too. Someone whose opinion I really respect and who has never steered me wrong, suggested that Lattimore would be the best translation for The Odyssey. It might have been the best option from an academic standpoint, but I enjoyed Fagel's translation more. On the other hand, I have three translations for The Aeneid and they are all only half-read and will remain so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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