4th and 1st grade Combined History?

[sangtarah]

I could use a little help here. I really would like a history program the kids can do together, and each retain a good deal from it. Plus I would like it to be simple, not complicated with lots of things to juggle. 

 

We haven't studied much history yet. My oldest did some American history with MFW Adventures, but doesn't remember much from it. So I'd like to start at the beginning of history.  Would it be hard to use SOTW and Mystery of History together? Would I have to have the Activity book for SOTW? What would you recommend and why? 

[Sneezyone]

This year, I have a fourth and first grader doing SOTW 1 together. The younger is doing it for exposure, the older with retention in mind. The older has supplemental readings to go along with the map work in the activity guide and a timeline. The younger just does the map work and timeline (he still likes to color). Next year, they will both do middle ages but the older will use The Human Odyssey to outline and narrarate while the younger will work through the activity guide. Both will do the timeline, extra readings, and videos. The guide is useful for hands-on activity ideas, narration questions and pacing but it's not totally necessary.

[Kiara.I]

SOTW is good, so far for retention.  You wouldn't *have to* have the Activity book--it depends what you want to do.  I like that it provides a colouring page and a map work page for each chapter.  I think the map work is very valuable.  I like the crafts and other activities, too, but they can be a bit overwhelming.

 

You may want to be adding in some other reading for your Grade 4.  It sort of depends what your goals are for history at this point.

[Donna A.]

Since you're wanting to start from the beginning of history, you could do just the history and Bible portions of MFW Creation to the Greeks.  The Bible would be your main spine, along with other read-alouds and resources used for additional information and pictures.  You likely wouldn't use much from the other reference spine that's included, Streams of Civilization, since it's for older elementary or high school students.  But it's a teaching source for YOU, really, for more details and a few maps and things.  It's not intended for younger kids to actually read themselves.  And as you know from Adventures, CTG has that extensive booklist in the back to be used as time and interest allow.  You can use the library for that, OR you can just buy a few select titles to have on your bookshelf at home.  Marie has asterisked some titles that she recommends for purchase. 

 

If you go with SOTW and/or Mystery of History, there are still going to be "other" books and resources to look up and/or purchase.  So either way, you need maps and things.  At least with MFW, it's all included, and you don't have to do every single assignment on the grid.  Just stick to the history and Bible if you want. (Although I really like the looks of Dr. Wile's new science text that MFW schedules in CTG!  I wish they'd had that when we did CTG.)

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I strongly recommend the activity books with SOTW.  The book lists, geography, narration prompts, coloring pages, hands on activities, etc.  for each chapter are all meant to be used together to increase the depth and breadth of understanding and reinforce each other for more retention.  When you have kids with such a wide developmental range the activity book will allow you to find things that meet each child's needs better.

[Holly]

I use MOH with grades 7 to preK.  My younger ones just listen to the readings and any extra books/movies we add in.  My older ones complete the quizzes, maps, and tests.  My 2nd grader does some of the quizzes and mapwork.  We've added in the Challenge cards for added review.  We do some of the activities if we have time, but mostly we focus on the readings.  I don't think the younger ones get as much from the readings, but they love the activities and picture books we add in on occasion.  

 

Personally, I'd be hesitant to do both SOTW and MOH...I think you'll be better off picking one program and adding in a few extras from the library.  One thing we did when deciding on a history program was to read a sample of each curriculum.  I asked my older ones which they preferred.  We also listened to recordings of each and I discovered they prefer me reading aloud (I was really hoping to go with a CD).   :lol:   I'm glad we spent a bit of time doing this before I committed to a program. 

[smarson]

Check out Tapestry of Grace

Story of the World would be a great choice

 

I don't have much exposure to it but TruthQuest?  

Or Draw and Write through History series?

[Donna A.]

Check out Tapestry of Grace

Story of the World would be a great choice

 

I don't have much exposure to it but TruthQuest?  

Or Draw and Write through History series?

 

Well, if she doesn't want it complicated without a lot of things to juggle (per the OP), I wouldn't recommend TOG.

 

TruthQuest *could* work, but there's no hands-on activities involved. 

 

Draw and Write is really a series of art books with copywork and handwriting practice.... so more of a supplemental item.

[sangtarah]

Thanks, ladies. I have been reading all the responses all day. They are helpful.  :thumbup:

 

Donna, I have checked out MFW CtG extensively. I'm on the fence with it - there's is a lot of good Biblical knowledge, but I feel like my middle kid will be lost. We are doing ECC this year, and she tunes out to almost all of it. She really likes to do her thing and move on. Plus I have this terrible compulsion to check.every.box in the grid!  I've tried to not do it, but I do. The result is we are finishing up Week 15 of ECC, and I had planned that we would be done by May. I don't want to squeeze the remaining 20 weeks into the 8, since we will lose a lot of the program that way. I'm assuming CtG would be the same level of work.  I think our day would be shorter if we used all of MFW's suggested resources (PLL, Singapore, etc). They just weren't a good fit for my oldest. Instead we use Saxon and Rod&Staff and IEW. So that adds time to our day. I'm also struggling with the amount of things they should know by the end of the year, since MFW philosophy doesn't include quizzes/tests. I found that after Adventures she didn't remember much. If we did CtG, I know I would want to add in memory card and make up quizzes, and that's a lot of work, it seems, to add to an already full curriculum.  :001_unsure:

 

I have looked at TOG, but I'm very afraid the compulsive box checking would put me in deep, deep waters with that program. It looks brilliant. But I don't know if I could wade through the "fog". 

 

I have MoH Vol.1 and SoTW Vol. 1 on my shelves. We have all the elementary Apologia Science books. So my thought was MoH three days a week and science two days a week would be so clean-cut, so easy to schedule. But then will my 1st grader really engage into it? Holly's comments make me nervous about that.  Will I end up borrowing or buying extra books to "flesh" out or "dig deeper"? I'm okay with some of that, but our library isn't great.  I don't envision home life getting simpler, and I know my middle child's academic needs will increase next year, so I'm trying to plan for a good balance all around. My oldest is a daydreamer, and doesn't work intently. My youngest is going to be a 2 year-old adventurer, throwing us off-track all the time. 

 

So, thanks in advance if you made it through all that.  :001_rolleyes:

I'm all  :bigear: for any more advice!

 

[Sneezyone]

I don't think either of the books you're interested in are intended to be the sole source of information. Our local library is five minutes away and  has limited content too. I work work with what they have and purchase a few anthologies to fill in gaps. We don't have time to read everything that might compliment our studies and we don't do all of the activity book stuff either  for the same reason. It's nice to have a lot of different activities to choose from though.

 

FWIW, I like SOTW, and my kids are engaged in it, but it doesn't come alive until you supplement with readings, online videos, and/or maps and coloring pages. I feel the same way about Human Odyssey.  I've never used MoH.  

 

The way I have history scheduled this year (for 1st and 4th) we work Tu and Th afternoons for 45-60 minutes. We read the SOTW chapter(s) and do the map work (usually with our wall map and globe...the older is not interested in tracing) on day one.  On day two, we do a narration/recap exercise and then watch a video. DS might color a page and watch the clip(s) out of the corner of his eye. DD is usually fully engaged.

 

Our supplemental history reading is done aloud, by me, M-W-F during our morning meeting. It takes about 15 minutes but they love the stories. So, essentially, we do a little bit with history every day.

 

I'm not sure if this is the kind of info that you're looking for but we've settled into a groove here and it is working pretty well. I have a weekly schedule of subjects for each kiddo broken down by day, but that's the extent of our box checking.

 

 

[hollyhock]

I think you might be over-thinking this a little. I don't think you really need to worry about retention at this age. For simplicity's sake, I would choose one text, either MOH or SOTW and just read them it your kids. You could add in some activities, a few maps, make a timeline on the wall. With my kids at that age, we used History Scribe and my boys would have great fun drawing pictures of the lessons. Sometimes we added a narration or dictation sentence under the picture. I have great memories of history when my oldest boys were these ages. We kept it fun, light and full of good stories. There is plenty of time to worry about retention and digging deeper when they are older. :)

 

Of course, YMMV, and you may have different goals, but this is what I would do.

[Donna A.]

I agree with Erin on the over-thinking it.  Allow me to think out loud and do a bit of brainstorming for you to mull over.... Maybe I can identify something that will help?  If not, feel free to ignore. :001_smile:

 

At this stage of learning, it's not expected that they should remember everything they've learned.  It's about exposure.  That's why we do multiple "layers" in our learning over several years and repeat the history cycle at least twice or three times, if not more. :)  I know you "get" that where your 1st grader is concerned, but your 4th grader is still pretty young, too.  When my oldest, who's a voracious reader and has always loved learning, was in 4th grade, I was just then doing Adventures with her as it was brand new and Expl-1850 wasn't out yet.  But I did beef it up some for her reading level and language skills.  It was quite sufficient in those content subject areas, as she still had 4 more years of history and geography ahead of her before even getting to high school.

 

CTG is different than ECC because CTG is based on time, whereas ECC is based on space.  Time -- or history study -- is a continuum; space (geography) is not.  Space changes, and yet it doesn't.  In every space you have a people group, a predominant religion or lifestyle, a type of food and music particular to that people group, a usual set of weather and land factors that must be dealt with every day, etc.  And yet, each of those elements within each of those spaces is different.

 

You stated that your dd's not retaining in ECC, and that she doesn't remember much of Adventures, either.  I would like to know more about what a day of MFW looks like at your house... whether there's anything that can be done differently to help with retention.  Maybe the time of day, or the way she does the notebooking, whether or not she's doing narrations, whether you're following additional suggestions by Marie in the teacher notes, whether your dd is sleeping well, whether she's reading additional books from Book Basket that are more at her level, or whether she'd just rather be playing with baby dolls than doing school.  :lol:   I'd also like to know exactly what she does that's independent.  How do you go about doing the "together" lessons, and then what does the 4th grader do on her own?  I'm suspecting that your dd is retaining a lot more than you think she is. ;)  I have two children like this... they sort of learn "by stealth".  But there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; in fact, that's how family learning is supposed to work, in a sense. 

 

I would also suggest that she doesn't actually need IEW yet at this point.  Even so, how many days each week do you have her doing it?  What does a weekly overview look like at your house? 

 

Are you playing the geography game with her in ECC?

 

The reason I'm asking these questions and wondering about certain things is that I don't think a switch to SOTW and/or MOH would really "fix" what you're hoping to fix.  You said in the OP that you want it "simple, not complicated with lots of things to juggle", but then later you said you'd want to "add in memory card and make up quizzes, and that's a lot of work, it seems, to add to an already full curriculum".  I agree!  It would be a lot of work to add to an already full curriculum! :huh:   But guess what.  If you do SOTW and/or MOH, you're still going to have those things unless the way you'd prefer to do history is to simply sit and read through a couple of great spines and discuss them together without any activities.  Which is perfectly fine if that's what you want to do..... but do you? 

 

Have you printed out the sample lessons for CTG and read them over, along with the Table of Contents?  I did that back in the beginning... printed off ALL the sample lessons from ALL the years of MFW, and read through each of them in order so that I could get an idea of not only what we'd be doing this year, but what that would be leading into in future years, as well.  I wanted more of a "big picture".... and I didn't want to have to do an 8th grade level workload in 4th grade, either. ;)

 

Another thing that helped a lot was to listen to some of David Hazell's conference talk CDs.  One of my absolute favorites was the one titled "What 21st Century Christians Ought to be Teaching Their Children".  He gives you the educational philosophy behind MFW, why they do what they do, and in what order, and what the overall goals are... not only academically, but spiritually as well.  Don't forget that MFW is more than just history; it's Bible, too, as well as science, art, music..... with a very strong biblical worldview. 

 

I'm not suggesting that MFW is the "only" or even the "best" curriculum out there for history.  But since you've already used two years of it, I'm just trying to help you see the big picture a little more, both in terms of the curriculum itself (layout of the manuals, academic and spiritual goals, efficiency for a mom with multiple children, etc.), and in terms of YOUR daily life and how things work best in your home.  (Thus, the questions about what your dd does independently, how you do your together time, and so forth.)  Is she really not retaining it, or do you assume (or fear) that she's not retaining it because you don't have "tests" to give her like they do a in a classroom with 30 same-age children, where the teacher has a limited number of hours with which to produce results for an administration that doesn't know Johnny from Billy unless they're wearing name tags?

 

Anyway.... I apologize if it sounds like I'm attacking in any way.  I'm not at ALL.  Really. :001_smile:   I'm just trying to get more of an inside look to help you think through the situation a little deeper and figure out what the actual problem is, whether you really need to switch curriculum or not, and even to what extent you want to be doing history right now.  Do you want simple, without a lot to juggle?  Or do you want memory cards, tests, and other "proofs" that your dd is learning?  Can we talk about the long-term effectiveness of reading quality literature, and the techniques of copywork, dictation, narrations (both written and oral), and memory work? :D

 

(This is one of those times that I wish we could sit down with all the materials spread out in front of us together, with some fresh, warm blueberry scones and a cup of hot tea kept safely over to the side so we don't spill it on the books, while watching the beautiful snowfall out the window.)

 

[sangtarah]

Donna, 

 

Thank you for the detailed reply. I appreciate that you are giving your time to help me. And I ADORE blueberry scones and hot tea.  :laugh:

 

Generally we are up and working by 10. My 3rd grader will do independent subjects until lunch, so I can focus the morning on my K'er. After lunch we switch - I work more closely with my 3rd grader. Her independent subjects include (not done every day): Bible (sometimes led by me if it's Hero Tales or Window on the World), Math, Cursive, Vocabulary words, reading, IEW Writing, Latin, Keyboarding, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. After lunch she does whatever else she hasn't already finished which is usually a lot, plus, Spelling, English, Geography, Science. Art gets stuck in sporadically. Read-Alouds are either read during lunch or a night. Again, we do not get to every subject every day. Usually it takes two days to check off everything in one column of the grid. 

 

We just began IEW, and haven't done it much - once or twice a week maybe. She enjoys it and sometimes asks for more time to work on it. 

We play the geography game sporadically. My 3rd grader is actually retaining info from ECC; it's the K'er that isn't as interested. 

We don't always copy the memory verse or do the dictation of it. Narration happens, but I'm lucky to finish a reading w/o interruption. 

 

I have borrowed a TM for CtG, and I've read it cover to cover. It's not the overall trajectory of MFW that I'm questioning or having a hard time with. Implementation, yes, long-term goals, no. I have all the conference talks. My concerns with CtG lie more in the "can I make it fun for my 1st grader" and "can I get through it all" categories. Streams in particular seems to contain a lot of information that would soar past the 1st grader. I know you said to summarize, but some days that is three pages of summary. Besides my voice, is there another way to show the information?

 

And I desire to simplify our time next year. That's probably impossible, but I thought I would ask the question. 

 

You know, sometimes I wonder if I like to plan school more than actually do school. The plan is clean and easy.  :lol:

[cbollin]

"can I make it fun for my 1st grader" and "can I get through it all" categories. Streams in particular...... besides my voice...

 

thinking out loud.  I've done CTG twice.  One of the times my youngest was first grade and she was just along for the ride while in her own stuff in lang. arts and math. (well, ok, it was mfw first grade, but that's ok)   I don't really see how to use Streams with 1st grader.  So, if it were me, and I was in that situation once (and the youngest has some developmental delays).. .

when it came time for Streams:  I handed it to my oldest who was in 8th grade.  she read it while I would get other stuff set up.  I would teach the info to middle gal.  first grader did not have to listen to Streams at all.   She was interested in science in CTG,  She was interested in the craft book such as Ancient Egypt.  She could do all crafts.  she was able to help in some ways with "feasts".   Her Bible reading was from bible reader. 

 

On those days of 3 pages of Streams:  I refused to read it out loud to any of them. what?  me?  mfw fan freak.  yep. that's right.  I didn't use Streams as my read aloud if it went on that long.  I would read it myself, and teach the info in small sections to 5th grader.  If it said "advanced", I would just check the box because in my mind I had done the book for the day and it wasn't needed.  We're read a caption box.  A few brief things and then moved on.  It was used, so the box was checked.   You could act the information at times.  your voice will still be needed.  but if it makes you feel better?  even I didn't read that book out loud all the time.  most days it was a page.  but the 3 page days.. ugh..  I had just moved to this city from another state and was tired.  it didn't matter if I taught every little thing.   it's hanging info on pegs, right?

 

and for Children's Homer:  audio ebook at the library  (no ,the first grader doesn't have to listen to the whole thing)

 

so, my opinion is to invite the first grader to join in Bible and feasts (OT, egypt, greek).   do the crafts together.  Read from the Ancient Egypt book, the ancient history usborne.  look at pictures together in the other books  let the first grader be in charge of the frogs, and crowns.  if they like to draw, use the student sheets.  maybe something like draw and write in history will be useful.  other fun in CTG:  oh yeah, the card games in the student sheets, and make your own cards if you want for the 12 tribes.

 

but give yourself plenty of grace on the Streams book.  my oldest read parts to herself in 8th grade.   middle gal in 5th heard parts of it..  youngest..  she was not involved in that book but might use it in 9th grade. 

 

 

[cbollin]

oh, I meant to include this also:  when you said simplify, I was reminded of an old post of mine on mfw's board about how we had to simplify a lot of things in CTG the year we moved.  here are some links if any of it would be helpful if you decide to do CTG

http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4770#p52622

and here

http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4769&start=25#p53005

 

I don't know.. but maybe having a youngest child who didn't "have" to learn any of it made it easier on me to just focus on 3 r's and let anything from CTG be fun... from coloring and drawing, and stickers, to egypt crowns and plastic frogs.. to robes, and hiding in boxes. and we sang "We are the dinosaurs marching marching"...  giggle..    sometimes she joined us for some of the bigger things in art.  I know she didn't retain anything from "history".  it didn't matter.  She'd come running for science time.  still does that when it's experiments.  still cooks.   and then same things in RTR the next year.  she wasn't ready for more.  but first time we did RTR, middle gal was first grader who joined for some stuff while focusing on language arts and math. and telescopes to look at Saturn... 

 

oh no.. I'm having my old lady moment. remembering when my babies were little....  I'm sure it was harder when it was happening.