Dicentra Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 DD is currently 14 and is considering going into music as a career. We've talked about the different paths available (teaching, performing, etc.) and she's unsure which direction she'd like to go. We've talked more about attending university for music as opposed to a conservatory. For that matter, she's also not wedded to the idea of music as a career. :) Piano is her main instrument, although she is also taking voice lessons and mucks around on the guitar. She's also taking flute lessons. My question is - what does it take to be competitive in the piano world? She completed Grade 8 RCM piano last year with an 86 on her exam (First Class Honours) and completed the Advanced Rudiments Theory exam with a 96 (First Class Honours with Distinction). Here are the national candidate standings to relate how her marks compare to the national averages: https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/academic-resources/general-information#CndStand. She won the top award for piano at our local yearly music competition last year but we are a very "small pond" and, consequently, she is a "big fish". :) We're in a fairly small, rural, and isolated area - the nearest university is 4-5 hours away so she hasn't ever participated in a music competition in a larger center. She did attend a music camp last summer for piano but it wasn't one of the competitive ones - I'd love to see if she could get into Interlochen but it's pretty spendy. She's working on Grade 9 RCM piano this year with the appropriate theory and history courses. She will be 15 later this spring. Is she "behind"? She's good but she's not a prodigy and it seems that most of the folks that "make it big" in the performing world are prodigies - I could be wrong, though. :) How do I know if she's "behind" where she needs to be? How do I know if she's "good enough"? Are these even appropriate questions to be asking? :) I feel like a fish out of water - I know how to guide a potential STEM student towards university but I don't have a clue what to do for a potential music student. I've got a few recordings of her playing that I can share through PM if that would help anyone to give me a better indication of where she stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Although I could field your questions, to some extent, because of my background, my suggestion is that you send a PM to FaithManor. Her experience is more current than mine. Another mom whose name I can't remember also would be a good resource. Maybe these ladies will enter the thread. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Although I could field your questions, to some extent, because of my background, my suggestion is that you send a PM to FaithManor. Her experience is more current than mine. Another mom whose name I can't remember also would be a good resource. Maybe these ladies will enter the thread. Best wishes! Thanks, Orthodox6! I think I'll do that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 My guess about prodigies making it big more often in the classical world is that it's a marketing "hook". As adults, prodigies may be no more talented than a lot of other people, but with that hook they might get more concerts and recording contracts. (If that were true, one could just make up a prodigy story....) Another hook might be a really charismatic stage presence. Think Lindsey Stirling, Lorie Line, Andre Rieu, etc A youtube presence doesn't hurt: But most musicians don't become star performer/household names. And not all musicians need to be THAT famous to have a satisfying career. Also, a lot of kids may be so-so musicians in high school, but then decide it's their passion and really take off. So I don't think, even if she is "behind", that it makes much difference. What matters is how much work she decides to put into it. If she's really interested in this path, then finding more opportunities for her to play -- solo concerts, in groups of all sorts etc -- and possibly finding more competitions to enter is the way to go. I believe there are competitions that can be entered with recordings, so you wouldn't have to physically be present in some faraway place. Also, the teacher can be key. She needs a good solid foundation, and someone who believes she can get good and knows how to get her there. Has her teacher produced other students who did well in the field? Another career path to consider is music therapy. Or, do like lots of other people and be a really really good musician who just happens to also be a brain surgeon or calculus text book writer or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Thanks for the advice, folks! DD is still unsure if music really is her intended career path but, if it is, I wanted to make sure that she has the proper background and training to be competitive when applying to programs. I've also had some advice through PM which has been fantastic. This place continues to astound me with all the helpful and generous folks who are willing to share their knowledge and experience. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Writing one thought anyway. . . If your dd has multiple interests, encourage her to have a second string to her bow for college study and/or profession. At the end of my freshman year, I voluntarily returned a hefty, prestigious scholarship for music composition. It took a while of bumbling to settle on a replacement path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Dicentra -- if those who pm'ed you with advice feel like sharing here, it might be fun to see what they had to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 The poster would like the advice to remain private to protect her own privacy but it echoes what's been said here. :) Work hard, keep other non-music academics strong, university contacts are great, and having more than one string to your bow is a good idea. I'm hoping to prepare DD to apply to university for either music (piano major) or for STEM. Or possibly both. She's still waffling between the two choices and - who knows - she may decide to go a completely different direction a few years from now. Her goal is to have an ARCT in Piano Performance with accompanying history and theory classes by the time she finishes high school. The ARCT designation is from the Royal Conservatory of Music and I'm not sure how it compares to other programmes. Here's a link to the piano syllabus for the Royal Conservatory website (based out of Toronto) in case anyone would like to compare: https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/sites/default/files/files/S29_PianoSyllabus_2013%20online_SECURED.pdf The requirement for the performance ARCT are on p. 99. She will also continue with voice lessons so if she advances a grade per year from now on, she can get to Grade X voice by the end of high school. Here's the voice syllabus: https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/sites/default/files/files/S35_Voice%20Syllabus_2013%20online_final_SECURED.pdf She'll probably also continue with flute but it's not her favourite and getting her to practice is like pulling teeth. I don't know if we'll do RCM exams for flute. ;) We're planning on having at least 6 AP scores and an SAT score for her to apply to universities. Canadian universities are all over the map when it comes to admitting homeschoolers and most seem to err on the side of more external scores and grade validation rather than less. Right now, it looks as though her AP classes will be Chem, Bio, Physics (not sure which), Calc AB, English, and Music Theory. It looks to me as though the content in AP Music Theory is about the same as the Basic Harmony course she's currently doing through the RCM but I'm not familiar enough with music theory to be a very accurate judge. :) Here's the syllabus: https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/sites/default/files/files/S30_TheorySyllabus_2013%20online_SECURED.pdf Basic Harmony is on p.22. We're looking at doing AP Music Theory next year as a less stressful intro to AP courses since she'll have already written an exam on Basic Harmony this year. I have heard that most universities won't take an AP Music Theory score for granting credit in a music programme and that's fine. :) If anyone has any thoughts on AP Music Theory for a potential music major, I'd love to hear them. If it's not worth it (since she'll already know the material from her RCM exams) we may do AP Psych or something else instead. She'll also have instruction in French and German throughout high school. We may add in Italian next year. She probably won't get to the AP level for any of the languages but if she continues with voice, an ability to pronounce German and Italian will be helpful. My dad's first language is German so he can help her with pronunciation. :) We're doing the German (and probably the Italian) using the Rosetta Stone homeschool program which comes with a workbook, quizzes, and tests so the student does writing as well as speaking. The program also corrects her pronunciation although it is better to be able to work with a native speaker. I have a friend who grew up in an Italian household here in Canada - maybe I can wrangle her into helping dd with the Italian. :) That's our plan. :) Of course, it could all change or completely fall apart in the next 3 1/2 years of high school. "Go with the flow" is probably the smartest advice I've heard from the veteran homeschoolers on this board. Smart ladies. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Connie.... sort of an aside.... I was a music major and so many STEM folks participated in our classes and ensembles.... it was great. :) And then I married one of them. :) Right now, I sit in with the Wind Symphony at the University of Rochester... not at Eastman, the conservatory side, but the Uni side. It's wonderful to see all these future engineers, drs, mathematicians.....etc... enjoying music together. I love that they are keeping it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Connie.... sort of an aside.... I was a music major and so many STEM folks participated in our classes and ensembles.... it was great. :) And then I married one of them. :) Right now, I sit in with the Wind Symphony at the University of Rochester... not at Eastman, the conservatory side, but the Uni side. It's wonderful to see all these future engineers, drs, mathematicians.....etc... enjoying music together. I love that they are keeping it up! They often seem to go together, don't they? :) I made it to somewhere between Grade IX and Grade X RCM piano and then (because I was 16 and knew EVERYTHING) dropped it to pursue the sciences. In hindsight, I was I had "known" less and listened to my teacher who tried to tell me that I could do both. ;) :D I did go to uni for chemistry but still kept playing informally. I still play now though not as much as I'd like to. I think even if dd goes the STEM route (probably geology or chemistry, based on her current interests), she'll still keep up with music, whether formally or informally. I just recently bought a flute to see if I could remember anything from that part of my long-ago music education. My facial muscles HURT (I guess embouchure doesn't stick around ;) ) but at least I remembered most of the fingerings. Music can be such a wonderful, fulfilling part of life at any stage and in so many capacities! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I was a music major and I never really considered anything else before I went to school. I went to a university, not a conservatory. I think that if I had wanted it badly enough I could have gone the performance route, but I realized through my years there that performance required a dedication and passion that I lacked - and I'm saying that as someone who has always been passionate about music. Just another point to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 A true school of music is very competitive to get into and stay in so her passion for music must be strong enough to not be ruined by the competition aspect. Everyone is forced to compete. Everyone, unless it is a lower ranked university or one that has a divided program (U of R comes to mind because one can pursue music through the university as a non-major, but performance majors are in the school of music - Eastman). What level of piano literature is she performing? Generally, anything in the classical music realm that is beyond method books is ranked from 5-10 with 5 being say a Clementi Sonantina, and 10 being the Rach 3 and the like. I don't mean to be discouraging, but I began a competitive program (I was accepted to Curtis School of Music, Oberlin, Wheaton, Cincinnati School of Music, U of Michigan, and a few others but not Julliard or Boston Conservatory) at one of these (I never divulge which one because I am intensely unhappy with some current policies at my Alma Mater and feel a great deal of angst about them at this time), and by the end of Freshman music theory first semester, we had lost half the class from performance to Music Ed or Music Therapy, and by the end of the second semester only had one fourth of the original performance majors still declaring performance for the sophomore year. So, I guess from that you can tell I didn't attend Curtis! One area she might enjoy, a hybrid major, is music therapy which crosses over between music, psychology and medicine. Not all that many universities offer it, but I've worked as a music therapist with special needs kids and LOVED IT! Though I managed to graduate with my performance degree, without a doubt, teaching was where I belonged. I loved teaching, and I adored my music therapy clients. If she has a natural bent towards that, I would encourage her to maybe look at secondary education with a double emphasis such as music and say science or mathematics. The reason for this is that while many PS's have been cutting music departments, they struggle to keep highly qualified math and science teachers. Getting a band director and someone who can teach AP Calc or high school physics all in one body is very lucrative. Math, physics, and music are also nicely, inextricably linked. If she were to major in performance, she should expect to have something like the following for her first semester freshman year - Some type of English and History gen -ed course, PE if her school requires it (mine required a health course for all of us that included a personal journal of physical activities), Music Theory and Aural Harmony, Piano lessons (two credits so a minimum three hours of practice per day and depending on the professor may need four in order to keep up with the sheer amount of music literature assigned), a performance group (often eight credits of accompanying or other performance group - I accompanied vocalists for their lessons and recitals as well as played flute in the community band), mandatory accompanying (an additional requirement for pianists that the vocalists and other instrumentalists do not have), and one other gen-ed course, for me it was psychology. It was 17 credits the first semester. I think I carried 18 when I started my conducting courses. My advice is that if she doesn't want to live in the competitive, dog eat dog, world of performance, that she look at either hybrid degrees, or she figures out what she wants to do to earn her bread and butter, and attends a university or LAC with a strong music department that offers lots of options to non-majors. At my school, many non-music majors sang in the choir, played in the combined college/community band (orchestra and jazz band, chorale and flute ensemble, etc. being off limits for all but the performance majors), had music appreciation courses they could take, musicals - the minor parts were often filled by non-music majors who auditioned for roles - and numerous other music related pursuits. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing path. Study AP music theory, don't even think about trying to transfer it. Don't let her get the idea she should take the next level. Nope. In college, it will be covered in more depth and nuance than the average high school teacher or community college will ever cover. Taking music theory with a PH.D from say Eastman is just another realm of experience than say the high school band teacher who graduated from regional state U down the road with the very limited music department. However, it is VERY good that she study it, even if she doesn't sit the exam. This will make her first semester music theory class much easier. It's a weeder class, and the "weak" struggle to survive, LOL, if the rest of the class are very knowledgeable. I would consider the possibility of letting her drop flute. Really. If she is pursuing piano at the level in which she will at least be playing say level 8 literature from memory with a high degree of accuracy and with nuanced interpretation, as well as voice to that level, then I would allow her to drop the third. It is very possible to burn out when maintaining two instruments plus voice. Let her use that time to either practice more on the others, or to pursue something else, or to relax. I am not kidding when I say that people crash ad burn in music if they aren't careful to balance themselves out, and have a life outside it. Ultimately, I'd watch and wait, let her drive the schedule unless you see something really concerning. It's hard! I understand it, I really do. You have this delicate balance of wanting to help her succeed at a high level of musical achievement so that performance is an option for her, but without killing her love of music or worse, preventing her from pursuing something else where she might be happier. It's a difficult tightrope walk, LOL! The only time my parents ever intervened and made some executive decisions about my pursuits and education was at a time when I was sick and pushing myself too much. I did not want to back down, but ended up so worn out and frazzled, I was withdrawn and practically off my food. At that point, they announced a hiatus from flute lessons, and canceled one of my performance opportunities, plus since I was not STEM bound, they made me back off signing up for advanced physics so I could get a little extra sleep. They also made me come to the table and eat dinner with them instead of allowing me to practice through which was the norm for me. It worked. I credit them for doing the "dance" with me very well during those years. Something had to give, I just couldn't make myself do it and needed some help. As a general rule, I always recommend, choosing academics in such as way as to not limit future opportunities but with an eye to exactly how much a passionate, zoned in on a particular subject type student can handle without over-stressing the child. Sometimes that takes some tweaking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Amen!, FaithManor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks so much for all the advice, ladies! Seeing as we are in Canada, our university programs might look a bit different than in the States but all the viewpoints are excellent and will provide us with much food for thought as we navigate through the next 3 1/2 years. Thank to all! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 In case anyone was curious, here are some links that give some of the first year (and subsequent) courses for a B. Mus. Performance degree at some various Canadian universities. University of Toronto: https://www.music.utoronto.ca/docs/bmus_p_14_15_prog_req_2_piano_harpsichord_1.1.pdf UBC (University of British Columbia): http://www.calendar.ubc.ca/vancouver/index.cfm?tree=12,210,381,375 McGill University: http://www.mcgill.ca/study/2014-2015/faculties/music/undergraduate/programs/bachelor-music-bmus-major-performance-piano Wilfred Laurier University: https://legacy.wlu.ca/documents/58596/outlines1314_copy.pdf(p.4) https://legacy.wlu.ca/documents/58797/Laurier_Music_Guidebook_2014.pdf(p.45) University of Western Ontario: http://music.uwo.ca/pdf/undergraduate/Program%20Check%20Forms/BMusPiano11.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I think it's difficult to say how competitive she would be without listening to her playing. As Faith said performance is insanely competitive, and it would be wise to have other options. I just wanted to add, Faithmanor, Curtis! Curtis! You were accepted to Curtis and turned it down? Sacrilege! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Is Manhattan "good" anymore? One of my cousins went there after he was not accepted into Julliard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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