could this article make me stop grammar!? Brave Writer

[OrganicMom]

http://blog.bravewriter.com/category/grammar/

 

I can't believe it.... this article really has me thinking. I love learning about grammar, I'm passionate about it... why? b/c i didn't study it that much when i was homeschooled. I think i may have had a few years of easy grammar, but i fetl that i needed more, or just more in a better way. B/c now... I lack the confidence in my writing....so now, i have begun to study grammar.... AND I've been religiously having my first born study it and have plans for my 2nd... but... i seriously feel my opinion on it beginning to lesson up... maybe even change!

 

I had been using FLL up to level 3 with my daughter, and we just began CC memory work of grammar at home, too. But recently i just made a switch mid year to Hake Grammar 4, and love it! love it, love it! 

 

currently we are trying to pair down our tools that we are using... our days feel too. much. as i am dipping my toes into reading what Julie has to say, the author of brave writer... she has moved me... even to tears at times... something in her picture of language arts, and the teaching of it, has really moved me...  could it be that my daughter has already had enough grammar for now, and can get more, and enough from Writing & Rhetoric, and Brave Writer tools, as well as CC memory work, for now?

 

Do i drop Hake 4, or just finish it, then go to 6th grade in a year or more....? Just thinking. Thinking, I want to let go of this possible yoke I've been carrying of perfection... and fly? Should i lighten my child's yoke too? is it a yoke? one day she says she LOVES grammar and it is her favorite subject, the next? she HATES it.... she was crying the other day about how she HATES school.... another day she gave me a hug saying how much she loved it... but is there something about it that is at times too much for her... not blaming it all on grammar...

 

I'm babbling now... I will end with saying that I have turned a deaf ear to any and all that have said that you don't need THAT much grammar, at lest not when they are young... and just this past week i reheard SWB reasons for starting grammar young, so that the kids have the proper rules ingrained in them, and it is natural... I guess I just need to rethink... what is best for me and mine....

 

ETA: I think i'm kind of freaking out. I feel as if I've been plunged into the ocean... where are my barrings!? lol 

 

we are JUST about to begin lesson 9 of Hake today... my poor daughter... i've changed so much on her... maybe we will just finish this year out? or drop it? ugh....

 

The funny thing is, is just yesterday I began thinking we may stop Latin studies and switch to spanish! and even that is surprising to me, too! My husband has been listening to some book on linguistics, and we have been discussing our choices and plan in language studies.

 

ETA, again: I think it is more than just grammar here. I think there is a fear issue. A fear that if my kids don't know how to diagram a sentence properly I will have failed them in writing. A fear that if i drop WWE2 that my daughter will not learn, or be proficient in summarizing the main points in a reading selection, etc.. I think I have some issues. I guess I'm wanting to be free, but I'm scared.

For example, even in the last two days I have been spending far too much time evaluating how to combine CAP's W&R with WWE... my indecision has really been b/c I've been scared of missing something. scared that W&R summarizing is not as rigorous as WWE's... maybe staying with just W&R is just fine....? wow... it's amazing the clarity of thought one can have in the early morning hours, when all is quiet... I don't have it all figured out yet, but I feel that the sky is clearing...

[Farrar]

Thoughts...

 

Even many people who feel grammar is important don't feel it needs to be an every year subject. That instead you can learn it all in a relatively short time once you're academically and developmentally ready. So dropping grammar for a time doesn't put you "behind" for grammar in most estimations. It's a subject that doesn't need to be covered for that long.

 

Even if you accept that students need to learn grammar, many great and published writers can't diagram. You're not a writing teacher failure if your kids can't diagram. It's one way to understand grammar, but there are others.

 

Diagramming and sentence analysis are tools that help us understand the underlying structure to language. One approach to learning writing is to understand that structure and move from there. The Brave Writer approach is to instead create a language rich environment filled with books, poetry, language games, and appreciation of words and language and let children learn by exposure to great language and by honing their own natural voices into solid writing voices. So instead of learning writing as a sort of foreign language, the idea is to build on the language the child already knows. If that approach doesn't resonate with you and you feel that no one can be a great writer without a deep understanding of the structure of English, then dropped grammar - long term, at least - probably isn't for you. But if you feel that is an approach you can embrace, then I would say drop away.

[OrganicMom]

Thank you for that description. One fear of having too much could be exchanged for having it at all will stump growth. A proper balance must be found. I now that you are a big Brave Writer user/fan, no? Have you found that your studying of grammar with your littles has served them? Despite hearing how it may limit their freedom or voice?

[LLMom]

Although I used Bravewriter many years, I don't follow her exact ideas on grammar.  I started grammar with my kids in 3rd grade and did it through 9th grade.  Some years were lighter than others, but I think it is an important subject, but most schools start it way too young since it is rather abstract.

[Wind-in-my-hair]

JMO, but I think that grammar memory work is kind of unnecessary if you are using those other writing and grammar programs. I would drop CC if I were in your shoes, especially if you love BW and Hake. Keep your child on whatever is giving her the most writing experience and ability to self-check. I am not sure that memory work empowers a child so, but rather, practice makes perfect. 

 

 

 

http://blog.bravewriter.com/category/grammar/

 

I can't believe it.... this article really has me thinking. I love learning about grammar, I'm passionate about it... why? b/c i didn't study it that much when i was homeschooled. I think i may have had a few years of easy grammar, but i fetl that i needed more, or just more in a better way. B/c now... I lack the confidence in my writing....so now, i have begun to study grammar.... AND I've been religiously having my first born study it and have plans for my 2nd... but... i seriously feel my opinion on it beginning to lesson up... maybe even change!

 

I had been using FLL up to level 3 with my daughter, and we just began CC memory work of grammar at home, too. But recently i just made a switch mid year to Hake Grammar 4, and love it! love it, love it! 

 

currently we are trying to pair down our tools that we are using... our days feel too. much. as i am dipping my toes into reading what Julie has to say, the author of brave writer... she has moved me... even to tears at times... something in her picture of language arts, and the teaching of it, has really moved me...  could it be that my daughter has already had enough grammar for now, and can get more, and enough from Writing & Rhetoric, and Brave Writer tools, as well as CC memory work, for now?

 

Do i drop Hake 4, or just finish it, then go to 6th grade in a year or more....? Just thinking. Thinking, I want to let go of this possible yoke I've been carrying of perfection... and fly? Should i lighten my child's yoke too? is it a yoke? one day she says she LOVES grammar and it is her favorite subject, the next? she HATES it.... she was crying the other day about how she HATES school.... another day she gave me a hug saying how much she loved it... but is there something about it that is at times too much for her... not blaming it all on grammar...

 

I'm babbling now... I will end with saying that I have turned a deaf ear to any and all that have said that you don't need THAT much grammar, at lest not when they are young... and just this past week i reheard SWB reasons for starting grammar young, so that the kids have the proper rules ingrained in them, and it is natural... I guess I just need to rethink... what is best for me and mine....

 

ETA: I think i'm kind of freaking out. I feel as if I've been plunged into the ocean... where are my barrings!? lol 

 

we are JUST about to begin lesson 9 of Hake today... my poor daughter... i've changed so much on her... maybe we will just finish this year out? or drop it? ugh....

 

The funny thing is, is just yesterday I began thinking we may stop Latin studies and switch to spanish! and even that is surprising to me, too! My husband has been listening to some book on linguistics, and we have been discussing our choices and plan in language studies.

 

ETA, again: I think it is more than just grammar here. I think there is a fear issue. A fear that if my kids don't know how to diagram a sentence properly I will have failed them in writing. A fear that if i drop WWE2 that my daughter will not learn, or be proficient in summarizing the main points in a reading selection, etc.. I think I have some issues. I guess I'm wanting to be free, but I'm scared.

For example, even in the last two days I have been spending far too much time evaluating how to combine CAP's W&R with WWE... my indecision has really been b/c I've been scared of missing something. scared that W&R summarizing is not as rigorous as WWE's... maybe staying with just W&R is just fine....? wow... it's amazing the clarity of thought one can have in the early morning hours, when all is quiet... I don't have it all figured out yet, but I feel that the sky is clearing...

 

 

[Wind-in-my-hair]

And I am extremely sympathetic to your wanting to do everything you find awesome. I have been looking at every single phonics program out there just for the sake of seeing if I might possibly improve upon what we have done in the past and are doing in the present. It can be very time consuming and stressful to feel you are not doing enough, and then to look at your schedule and see that you might be doing too much of a pet project, and not enough of other things! 

 

Getting my priorities straight is an ongoing battle. One thing that I think matters is knowing where you want to end up. If you want to end up doing Hake Grammar to its completion level, that's a clue as to its value in your present program. If you are just trying it out, then maybe its not as important to where you are trying to go with your dc's studies. Give your dc room to take in the material, because there is such thing as too much of a good thing. 

 

I hope any of that may help.

[Wind-in-my-hair]

I am wondering if Julie Bogart took her inspiration from Charlotte Mason? Her advocacy of a more naturalistic approach to writing and grammar, and learning through language immersion and play for the youngest set, strikes me as essentially CM. 

[Hunter]

I went through a big change awhile back. I had been thinking of my own education and what I gave my boys as inferior to what I thought I wanted to learn and teach in the future. I realized that to cover the things I missed the first time around, I'd have to miss things we didn't miss. There is only so much time and money to spend at a time.

 

A more relaxed approach produces results that are neither better or worse, just different than a more rigid approach. There are pros and cons to both approaches academically and in more far reaching areas.

 

I have chosen to self-educate and teach with more literature, and fewer textbooks for math and grammar. I am very aware of the negative aspects of that approach, but want to reap the benefits of my chosen approach.

 

It took me decades to go the full circle, and get to this calm place. I think a lot of us that were educated or educated children in the 70's-90's are going to come through this full circle and return to calmness. Others will find solace in a more rigid approach. :grouphug:

[Haiku]

 

 

Accuracy is not more critical than power in writing.

 

My family and friends love to joke about my pedantic approach to grammar. It is well known that I am a grammar nerd. I have been given more "I am silently correcting your grammar" items than I care to count.

 

Overall I really like Julie Bogart. We used The Arrow and enjoyed it. I find her writings interesting and food for thought. I will champion anyone that Great Homeschool Conventions chooses to kick out of their event.

 

But I have to disagree with the quote above. Imprecise writing distracts and detracts from the writer's message, and not just because I am a grammar snob. Imprecise and inaccurate writing often sounds wrong, jars the ear, and causes one to pause to consider the correct form. Inaccurate writing can be unclear and muddy the message; it can leave the reader trying to puzzle out the intention of an incorrectly formed sentence rather than enjoying the flow of the writing. Incorrect use of grammar forms can make the writer appear less informed about his subject (and I'm not saying it's true, but it can give the impression - just look at the many book reviews on Amazon that mention the book is in need of an editor).

 

I am a former editor, and in my view, accuracy and power go hand in hand ... without the one, you lose the other.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

I am a former editor, and in my view, accuracy and power go hand in hand ... without the one, you lose the other.

 

I strongly agree. Both are important.

 

I will also say that *most* kids, especially bright kids with naturally strong verbal skills, don't need 12 years of intensive, time-consuming grammar instruction. I wouldn't completely drop instruction, but there is a middle ground between the two extremes.

[Haiku]

It's not that I misunderstand the author. It's more that I am familiar with her overall approach and, much as I like her, tend to disagree with it. My comments are not confined solely to the content of this blog post.

[Hunter]

Sometimes, I have wanted to study more grammar, so that when I wrote to people that I was trying to debate with or impress, I'd look smarter. It usually wasn't to be clearer. My writing was clearly understood, and even demonstrated my voice. It just wasn't always "right" by the currently used style of some rigidly schooled readers that I wanted to impress.

 

When I am moving though life more humbly and with goals of service and love, rather than pride and self-interest, I don't need to worry and overextend myself so much. What I offer to people is welcomed. If I'm trying to push into places where I don't belong and am unwelcome, that is when I start worrying about my grammar and other outward and trivial things.

 

Yes, writing can be a sword, and some people are called to fight battles with their writing. Some are called to use a new and bright and perfectly sharpened sword. Other are called to hack at things with an axe. Some are not called to use a sword at all, and are meant to offer hugs and fluffy clouds of words instead.

 

When I start worrying about my grammar, I now realize it's time to pull back and question whether I'm supposed to be writing to that audience at all. Grammar is not as precise as math. There isn't always one "right" answer. Sometimes, it's a judgement call of which one is best. If I spend too much time debating which option is best, it reduces my ability to get my larger message across. I'm silenced by my pride. As Minivanmom said, there is middle road.

[Wind-in-my-hair]

What if Julie simply meant that young writers should not have to censor their writing grammatically as it is coming out of the pen, or else they may never, ever even want to begin writing for fear of imperfection? I know that the Charlotte Mason-style narrations are open and flow style, the goal being to unlock the composition that may be wrapped up in many layers inside the child's mind. This imperfect process will yield certain errors in grammar in the young.  Normally, the narration flows more or less grammatically, with innocent errors that actually reflect what the child wants to convey but did not know how to convey grammatically. These would be your opportunities to teach.

 

 I believe that children need to study grammar for many years, but they also need experience in writing to make their study of grammar meaningful. So, I think Julie's position is let's not put the cart ahead of the horse and enforce grammar rules on students who have not even practiced how to express a content-rich thought in their own language, let alone be technically accurate each time. Plus, I think that writing requires logical understanding of the theme first and foremost. Children may write grammatically correctly but completely lack attention to their theme and the order of topics, and that is not good.

 

Using grammar in everyday conversation is different than using it to convey something one is just learning, and so to make grammatical expression natural one has to take steps in the writing process. Many writers use flowcharts and lists to get their thoughts down before they commit thought to words, sentences, and paragraphs. Some children think visually and "see" what they want to say, so they may begin with a sketch. Sometimes there is a cognitive gap between what one wants to say and how to say it, especially if the writing assignment is ambitious. Grammar is important in all expression, but I think the idea is that some writers may need to relax their grammar-censor and just flesh out their idea first, and then it is easier to analyze how the sentence structure can be made better.                                                        

[Haiku]

PA-MOM, that's a good post. I see grammar and writing as inextricably linked. I don't teach my kids "grammar" and "writing" as separate subjects. I have always tried to choose materials that blend the two. I also teach my kids the writing process, which includes first drafts and revisions. I don't insist on perfection the first time through. In fact, I never insist on perfection; that would certainly kill any love of writing. I also believe that grammar is a subject that is most beneficial if it is studied many years in succession, going deeper and deeper as a student's writing matures. I have never encountered anyone who studied grammar for 12 years (indeed, I most definitely didn't, and my oldest daughter, who was in school from 6th-12th grades, never had one single lesson on grammar [to my undying horror]), and I disagree with SWB's idea that grammar instruction should being in first grade. I think grammar is too abstract for many 6 year olds. I would hold off grammar instruction until a child is reading fluently and writing with reasonable facility. I would imagine that 4th-10th grades would be sufficient for a thorough study of grammar for most kids. 

 

I don't see grammar and writing as either/or. They work together. I have read Julie Bogart's materials and blog posts for many years now. I do think that her stance on grammar has moderated over the years. I recall that she has, in the past, been much more dismissive of the need for grammar instruction than she seems to be these days. I wonder whether that is a function of her own kids getting older.

[8filltheheart]

 I see grammar and writing as inextricably linked. I don't teach my kids "grammar" and "writing" as separate subjects. I have always tried to choose materials that blend the two. I also teach my kids the writing process, which includes first drafts and revisions. I don't insist on perfection the first time through. In fact, I never insist on perfection; that would certainly kill any love of writing. I also believe that grammar is a subject that is most beneficial if it is studied many years in succession, going deeper and deeper as a student's writing matures. 

 

I don't see grammar and writing as either/or. They work together.

 

This is my view as well.  

[Farrar]

Julie Bogart has always been super CM-influenced from what I can see. There are CM quotes in TWJ.

 

I don't feel like she's moderated or changed her stance on grammar really from anything I can see. She's always recommended doing some grammar. And everything in BW is always - to me - walking a line between structure and freedom with writing. So it's not, write whatever you want however you want. It's use copywork and dictation to learn about structure and mechanics. Use freewriting to open up and improve fluency. Fill your home with words for inspiration. Use narration to get your words flowing. And among all those pieces is use a little grammar - perhaps through learning a foreign language or perhaps through doing a couple of grammar years where you focus on grammar - to deepen your understanding of language and editing. But it's not the focus.

 

We did do light grammar all through elementary school - just a little a year. Reading Brain Cleary books and so forth in K/1st. Reading Grammarland. Trying some silly grammar worksheets (though that was a waste of time). Doing Mad Libs. And then last year we did Grammar Island and Sentence Island. Much of it was review. And we didn't finish Sentence Island. My kids found it interminably dull. I don't see a strong connection between their ability to do sentence analysis and their ability to write well. And there are studies out there that similarly don't find that connection between formal grammar knowledge and solid writing. Knowing what adjectives are doesn't help kids choose strong adjectives. Knowing what a clause is doesn't help kids learn to vary their sentence structures as they write.

 

I *do* see how practicing mechanics and using models helps them. But I think coming at that through their writing and through copywork and dictation is more useful than a ton of worksheets or than reading about the mechanics rules in a lesson. This year - fifth grade - is the first year we're not doing anything for grammar beyond that copywork and dictation and by editing and revising in their own work.

 

Basically... I think there are different paths to good writing that can work and that not studying grammar as a separate subject or with much emphasis is definitely one of them.

[MerryAtHope]

If you love it and she sometimes loves it--maybe you don't drop what you are doing but tweak it to be more doable (less tear-inducing?!)

 

I do think that Julie's idea of hitting grammar hard 3 times (elementary, junior high & high school) makes sense, and also that (as she said somewhere--I didn't re-check the article to see if it's in there as I used her materials & followed her blog/forum for many years!) foreign language is a great way to really come to understand grammar. 

 

Also agree that grammar and writing are best taught together, at least eventually. I do think studying grammar separately helped my kids to focus on it, but I'll never forget my daughter saying, when we did Essentials in Writing 8, "We studied prepositions last year but I never knew why they were important!" She marveled about that several times!

[OrganicMom]

Gosh guys, what a great thread of responses! It helps me have a bit more of a perspective.

 

I won't be able to respond to a lot of the good points... b/c my day and some situations have now taken more time than expected. Also, I've yet to eat for the last half of the day. forgive me for choosing food over grammar discussions! heehee but, reading through some of your posts earlier i wanted to say "yes. that! that!"

 

I'm also going to have to back over and read more, when i have more time and have gotten past this hump of urgent tasks. 

 

 

[MerryAtHope]

 forgive me for choosing food over grammar discussions! 

 

What's the world coming to?!

[OrganicMom]

lol

 

We have shaken everything up and are taking a whole new perspective. 

 

Taking it one day at a time. seriously... My husband and I have made the top few subjects, or activities to do every single day, no matter what. like a loose routine. Then we have "shelved" everything else. When I say shelved, i mean put in a "place" for me to pick out what will work to do that day and what will not be done... after we have done the bare minimum, I will then go to my mental shelf, or actual shelf, or written plan/shelf and pick and choose as to what is doable for the day, for the child, and in the big picture for that moment... what this does is give me to be done, if we need to be done for the day, or continue on in grammar, as this is the current topic of discussion...

 

the factors that influence my choices may be chores, moods, weather, current projects, how long it has been since we did grammar, or math game, or whatever else. This brings freedom to me b/c I am an ENFP personality type, and I need flexibility... within a plan. so, I still have Hake Grammar. we are still going to do it, but some weeks maybe we will do 4 lessons a week, others, maybe one or none... for a few weeks... but grammar, for example, is not going to get done before we have been able to do other tasks, or my children have not learned self-care, or feel centered.... 

 

Thank you all for your view points and sharing. These are posts that I will (and always do) re-read or come back to.

 

I was delayed in response b/c we had some attitudes, learning issues, sickness, out of town family, and a birthday all come up. :) ahh.... life... :)

 

 

[Meadowlark]

Inquiring minds want to know...what ARE the programs that teach grammar and writing together? I've yet to find one.

[OrganicMom]

I think when you get into the more natural programs, whole to part, you will find that methodology is supposed to teach both..... is this what you are asking?

[sunnyday]

Inquiring minds want to know...what ARE the programs that teach grammar and writing together? I've yet to find one.

 

Bravewriter and Treasured Conversations and MCT come to mind.

[sunnyday]

BTW, if you want a counterpoint to the idea that grammar instruction inhibits creativity and power, check out the essay "Standing by Words" by Wendell Berry.

 

"When we reflect that 'sentence' means, literally, 'a way of thinking' (Latin: sentientia) and that it comes from the Latin sentire, to feel, we realize that the concepts of sentence and sentence structure are not merely grammatical or merely academic -- not negligible in any sense. A sentence is both the opportunity and the limit of thought -- what we have to think with, and what we have to think in."

[Saddlemomma]

When we started Latin in 5th grade, I pared down DD's grammar to just using MP's Grammar Recitation program.  This year we are continuing with Latin and using IEW's Fix-It Grammar.  It only takes DD about 10 minutes, 2 days/week (if that) to do her grammar, and she really enjoys the curriculum.  She tells me she has learned more grammar with this method than all the other years of formal grammar.

[MerryAtHope]

Inquiring minds want to know...what ARE the programs that teach grammar and writing together? I've yet to find one.

 

Essentials in Writing by Matthew Stephens is another (in Levels 1-6).

 

BTW, if you want a counterpoint to the idea that grammar instruction inhibits creativity and power, check out the essay "Standing by Words" by Wendell Berry.

 

"When we reflect that 'sentence' means, literally, 'a way of thinking' (Latin: sentientia) and that it comes from the Latin sentire, to feel, we realize that the concepts of sentence and sentence structure are not merely grammatical or merely academic -- not negligible in any sense. A sentence is both the opportunity and the limit of thought -- what we have to think with, and what we have to think in."

 

And this is why I love etymologies!

[Writerdaddy]

Remember when we are talking about how grammar leads to great things like accurate and persuasive writing that doesn't undermine the writers authority and let's them write with great precision-- which is true for some writerswe should also ask when and where this is true. Is this true for an elementary kid? I mean-- are we really dealing with writers who are becoming authorities and need to be persuasive, accurate etc? Or is this an "abstract" idea of a writer in the future that kids cannot really connect with-- passing over the real, immediate concrete reality of a kid writing from where they are at.

 

It's this part of grammar being "abstract" that's worth questioning a little at least.

 

I don't think BW is super light on grammar if you look at the copywork and dictation aspects, and it certainly emphasizes abstract things like alliteration, onomatopoeia, etc.. But one thing one might consider, if going light on grammar, is whether the household is really a highly literate one with lots of reading going on. If a child is immersed in language and reading then you absolutely have nothing to fear if a joy in writing, or at least lack of resistance, is cultivated early on. Grammar will come, or become not necessary. Language itself will overrun them and instill itself, it's natural grammar, and much else besides in a child. But under other conditions maybe just preparing the child to be functional with grammar is the best course of action.

 

I don't have such a highly literate environment myself, and I am a univ prof and writer! Since I don't emphasize grammar, I need to supplement a far more literary environment. My kids are watching tv as i type this.

 

In other words, since I don't worry about sentence diagramming I have something else to worry about! It's not like you can just abandon classical grammar and not replace it with something.

[OrganicMom]

I am wondering if Julie Bogart took her inspiration from Charlotte Mason? Her advocacy of a more naturalistic approach to writing and grammar, and learning through language immersion and play for the youngest set, strikes me as essentially CM. 

 

 

She mentions Ruth Beechick on her blog.

 

She does also mention CM in several ways on her blog. 

[OrganicMom]

Yes, this...

Sometimes, I have wanted to study more grammar, so that when I wrote to people that I was trying to debate with or impress, I'd look smarter. It usually wasn't to be clearer. My writing was clearly understood, and even demonstrated my voice. It just wasn't always "right" by the currently used style of some rigidly schooled readers that I wanted to impress.

 

When I am moving though life more humbly and with goals of service and love, rather than pride and self-interest, I don't need to worry and overextend myself so much. What I offer to people is welcomed. If I'm trying to push into places where I don't belong and am unwelcome, that is when I start worrying about my grammar and other outward and trivial things.

 

Yes, writing can be a sword, and some people are called to fight battles with their writing. Some are called to use a new and bright and perfectly sharpened sword. Other are called to hack at things with an axe. Some are not called to use a sword at all, and are meant to offer hugs and fluffy clouds of words instead.

 

When I start worrying about my grammar, I now realize it's time to pull back and question whether I'm supposed to be writing to that audience at all. Grammar is not as precise as math. There isn't always one "right" answer. Sometimes, it's a judgement call of which one is best. If I spend too much time debating which option is best, it reduces my ability to get my larger message across. I'm silenced by my pride. As Minivanmom said, there is middle road.

 

 

[OrganicMom]

So... forgive me for needing an affirming, "yes, that is it" or "that is just fine." 

 

I have just stripped my once very classical and rigorous idea of LA down. it has taken months preceding these last few days. I am now only having my daughter do copywork daily. (she LOVES copywork)

 

day one, we are using our SL LA 4/5 Copywork, and the copywork application.

Day two, I have copywork that I had already pre-made for her on a printed sheet, so she will be doing a paragraph from that... and doing some form of copywork each day from there...

 

bu these are some other thoughts or ideas: 

 

I was thinking of including a few Arrows...? and on those days dropping whatever other copywork we had on hand for that day...? and then on thankful thursdays write in a gratitude journal of some sort. Fridays have a freewrite... tuesdays ideally we will do some sort of poetry or poetry tea... on Thursdays and fridays... should i still have copywork for a 3rd grader...i don't think it would be too much....but is it necessary? would it be too light to not have it on the days she is doing a quick unedited free write or short bit on gratitude?

 

we were doing journals...with hake...but i'm kind of dropping that too....

 

was there anything else in the brave writer routine...or any other writing/grammar/LA for a 3rd grader that i need to add? We are not doing spelling, she is such a great speller, and we are trying to simplify. she sees a word once and tends to almost always remember it. We are also doing SL 4/5 Readers, and SL Core C read-alouds, etc...

 

she's so good at dictation when we were using hake, that i'm thinking it's OK to delay doing more of it...? one day she will copy a paragraph (3-4 sentences), and the next day i will just say it's time for dictation, and.... she doesn't even need me to read it to her or look at it... she gets everything correct. should i still continue with Hake's dictation only? doing one a week?

 

again.... i've been so focused on doing LA only one way...it feels like i'm starting all over again. :)

 

so my questions are on copywork every day? one dictation a week? arrows? anything else?

 

ETA: we are also doing CC grammar memory work, for now... sometimes i skip a random week due to what it is that is recommended to memorize in the grammar area.

[OrganicMom]

If implementing Brave Writer Arrows, how many days does this take up a week? how long does it take per session? I know there is copywork each week from looking at it, but how do most use it? do you use parts of it, learning from the copywork, spread out over 2 or 3 days?

 

If I am using it, i want to use it along with SL LA copywork, SL's Copywork application, and some of my panned copywork...

[Farrar]

If implementing Brave Writer Arrows, how many days does this take up a week? how long does it take per session? I know there is copywork each week from looking at it, but how do most use it? do you use parts of it, learning from the copywork, spread out over 2 or 3 days?

 

If I am using it, i want to use it along with SL LA copywork, SL's Copywork application, and some of my panned copywork...

 

One issue of the Arrow is meant to last for a month. You read the book aloud and use the dictation/copywork passages once a week. Different families seem to do it differently. Some read the whole book then use the passages. We always read and used passages as we went. Part of the idea of BW is to do copywork/dictation just once a week. However, we do it once a week for literature and big picture type stuff a la the Arrow (though I now choose our own passages from what we're reading and do it in the style of the Arrow). But we also do spelling dictation nearly every day and that's good for practicing spelling and basic mechanics, as well as memory for dictations. But those are super short and easy compared to the Arrow style ones.

 

Copywork is a great tool. But you can have too much of a good thing... If it were me, I'd want to pick and choose a little and not try to do too much. I do like the way the dictation in the Arrow is presented, but other presentations are fine too - this is how a number of people use WWE along with BW. They use WWE for their copywork and dictations and so forth, but then additionally do freewrites and tea times and so forth BW style and take inspiration from TWJ and various BW idea.  I really think if we tried to do a ton of copywork that would kill the joy a little in our school day. BW is definitely a "less is more" sort of program, so the idea is to do copywork/dictation one day, but really, really do it and focus on it and milk it for every drop its worth. Then leave it for a week and do other things.

[OrganicMom]

Thanks. I just found this too http://blog.bravewriter.com/2008/08/13/copywork-and-dictation-how-often/ 

 

I almost feel that I have had enough experience with copywork/dictation to do it on my own... and as the mood strikes... the only reason for doing copywork daily is b/c my daughter actually asks for it, and always wants to do more than i give her each day... interesting enough she does not like to pick out her own selections from a book. she want's a printed copy or a typed out copy on a flat sheet of paper...