Progressively harder and more complex sentence structures

[LaughingCat]

DD is really struggling with more complex sentence structures (and some literary devices such as flashbacks).   I wish I knew of a program that works through easier to harder/more complex sentence structure..   I have lower levels of things that work progressively - like Quickbooks or High Noon books -- but what I have are all an easier sentence structure.  More focused on word reading than sentence reading.

 

DD has this issue with both my reading aloud to her and her reading -- it is just a matter of degree.  For example, if I'm reading to her,   A Wrinkle In Time is fine but The Hobbit is too hard.    For her reading where she's using up working memory on the process of reading, something like Thea Stilton is just right.  

 

I think the regular way a child would get better at this would be just reading more - but DD still reads so slowly it would take years to get through a decent number of books.   Even with my read alouds, the number is not all that big.   And  I have found out that the only audio books she is truly listening to are repeats of what she has already heard via me or read herself or at the same level she is reading at. 

 

My original thought was to do this via picture books and short stories -- relatively short and plenty with a harder sentence structure and easy to stay in her interest areas - but I'm really struggling with identifying level.   Using AR or Lexile don't hit on the issue - some lower level books are harder than they would seem and some higher level ones are easier.  For example, I read The Wizard of Oz -- 1000L & 7.0 AR -- with absolutely no issue.  The Hobbit is also 1000L & 6.6 AR but was too hard for her.

 

She is naturally improving at this - a year ago A Wrinkle in Time was too hard for her to listen to and this summer it was fine.  I just would like some way to actually address it directly rather than hope that it resolves over time.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts?  How have you dealt with this? 

 

 

 

 

 

[FairProspects]

In reading, comprehension, or writing? I know Killgallon works on this for writing, but I'm thinking you mean reading comprehension. Is that right? Have you thought about doing vocabulary work? I realized that for us now that ds is reading very well, his lack of explicit vocabulary understanding was really starting to get in the way of literature work. We've been doing both Wordly Wise 3000 online and Marie's Words pulled from his literature and I'm noticing a huge difference in his ability to comprehend and express his thoughts.

[Heathermomster]

Do you think copia exercises would help?  What I mean is, have her practice rephrasing sentences while directly teaching differing types of dependent clauses.  Or is this an inference issue?  I like that FairP mentioned vocabulary.

[Lecka]

If you have a sense, you can just have a list of possible books and flip through them, and go to a few pages, and see how many words are in a sentence or how many hard syntax words are in the sentences.  

 

I also still have a reversed policy from a lot of people.... I look for books that have a movie version, and my son watches the movie first.  It helps him a huge amount.  

 

I also stop and talk about what is happening in books that I read to him.  

 

I am not doing anything more systematic than that.  

 

Those are things I do, though.  

 

I also really talk up books that I think might be harder, and I will stop more, and I also will sometimes tell him the overall  plot ahead of time if it is a book I have already read.  It helps him a huge amount.  

 

I am interested in reading the other responses :)
 

I do think, The Hobbit is a pretty hard book.  I read it to my son b/c of the movies coming out.... I know there is NO way he would have followed along without thinking of the movies.  But since he has seen the first two movies, he did great in understanding, and then for the last part I did have to explain some to him.  I think The Hobbit is a lot harder than Wrinkle in Time.  But, I don't think my son is emotionally ready for Wrinkle in Time, either.  I can see why it is recommended for 6th grade.  

 

 

[Mrs. Tharp]

I emphatically second the vocabulary suggestion. Also, have you tried explicit instruction in parts of speech, such as that given in R&S?

 

Using R&S English has forced my son to pay more attention to how different words function in a sentence and the mental scaffolding with which to start to analyze language & meaning. Before we started that, he struggled constantly because (outside of vocabulary) he didn't understand how to identify what he wasn't comprehending in a sentence. 

[Heathermomster]

I emphatically second the vocabulary suggestion. Also, have you tried explicit instruction in parts of speech, such as that given in R&S?

 

Using R&S English has forced my son to pay more attention to how different words function in a sentence and the mental scaffolding with which to start to analyze language & meaning. Before we started that, he struggled constantly because (outside of vocabulary) he didn't understand how to identify what he wasn't comprehending in a sentence. 

Which R&S English do you recommend?  Would grade 7 be sufficient for a high schooler?

[Heathermomster]

I just wanted to make a comment.  A few weeks back, I recall TokyoMarie maybe mentioning using FIAR methods with her DD.  I've been reading the FIAR website and I think the authors are on to something.   I am discovering that my son reads a story well enough to follow the plot and to see where the story is heading.  His vocabulary is very good but he skips story details because he is not close reading.  I am starting to see where repeated reading of a chapter or short story for a time, might start to teach my student to internalize story.  I don't know.  I wish I understood this process better..As it stands, I don't have a name for it.  Advanced comprehension?    

[Pen]

Some of this, like flashbacks, you can use movies to help with understanding the device.

And it could also be a way to scaffold books like The Hobbit.

 

 Language! by Sopris West works into reading passages at levels that go beyond High Noon--it was recommended by the same reading specialist who had recommended High Noon to me and is also mentioned as a good choice by Sally Shaywitz--one that has been researched and found to work well for many dyslexics.   It has things like understanding words in different contexts, such as "act" as a verb or act in a play, and so on. An early passage in the first level book was about abstract art.  We did not really end up using it very much b/c dc mostly went from HN to reading real books at his level, but it looked good for what you are talking about as a program that you could follow step by step, while still having your dd keep reading real books at her level, reading aloud, audio recordings, discussing movies, etc.

 

[LaughingCat]

I do not believe the issue is vocabulary or word reading.  It is appears directly related to sentence complexity not length or difficulty of words used.  Of course if there are more hard words it does add to the issue but really it is something about the phrasing not the words IMO

 

Regarding grammer - I was originally going more by the theory that there was no point in that when reading was still such an issue.   And lately, since I know she will struggle with memorizing grammer rules,  I have been in a state of indecision on which direction to go.  It's one of the reasons I tried Killgallon - because it appeared more of a Dancing Bears for grammer  (the no rule memorization part rather than the remedial part).  However, DD is completely unable to do Killgallon as written  (Sentences for Elementary).  I will have to research copia -- the sentence rephrasing sounds just like something I was trying to figure out to scaffold up to being able to do Kilgallon.    

 

I have been trying to use Fairy Tales as a method to address this for just the "knows the plot ahead of time" reason  - she knows the basic story and  there are plenty of re-tellings at various levels (and she enjoys Fairy Tales!) - but there I hit the 'leveling' issue.  I just do not have a good sense looking at a book whether it is too complex or not.   It is not just a matter of counting the words/word difficulty- for that I could rely on AR/Lexile.    Perhaps what I need to do is sit down with a set of books for one story all together and compare them to find some specific strategies to 'rate' them via sentence complexity - trying to figure what exactly I need to I look at to use for rating -- maybe using the type of phrasing or number of phrases instead of the number of words for example.

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Pen, I was looking at Language! yesterday because it came up for "adolescent struggling readers" - but the price!!!! And I am not really sure it is what I need anyway - for example, things like understanding homophones has never been an issue.  Puns yes, homophones no - I think the difference is a pun relies on remembering both meanings at once, but reading a homophone only relies on remembering the correct meaning in this context.  But yes, I would love a program that was all set up for me.

 

[FairProspects]

Are you using something like guided reading where she has to see and hear at the same time - Kindle's Immersion Reading, Bookshare, Learning Ally, etc? We've made a lot of progress this year with language by having ds read with guided reading, doing vocabulary work on the reading, coming back together and discussing through the literary elements to check comprehension, etc. I don't know if your dd is a builder but Lego's writing and literature sets, Build to Express, have been AMAZING here. My boys are expressing very complex ideas when they are visual or built instead of in writing. It is as if having a tangible build unlocks the words in their heads or something since they actually think in pictures. Would something like that work with drawing or building? The Lego sets come with a CD-ROM that actually has cards to get you started with literary elements but we've been adding other literature guides too.

[LaughingCat]

I just wanted to make a comment.  A few weeks back, I recall TokyoMarie maybe mentioning using FIAR methods with her DD.  I've been reading the FIAR website and I think the authors are on to something.   I am discovering that my son reads a story well enough to follow the plot and to see where the story is heading.  His vocabulary is very good but he skips story details because he is not close reading.  I am starting to see where repeated reading of a chapter or short story for a time, might start to teach my student to internalize story.  I don't know.  I wish I understood this process better..As it stands, I don't have a name for it.  Advanced comprehension?    

 

Heathermomster, one of the things that never made a difference in reading for DD was repeated readings  (and we did a lot of them through the school's PAL reading in both 1st and 3rd grade).  And when I was googling yesterday, I found one website that cited research showing that repeated reading made no difference for adolescent struggling readers.   I have also found that Lecka's method of watching the movie first has usually backfired on me - basically watching the movie generally makes DD not want to read the book (the opposite is not true- reading the book makes DD want to watch the movie).   But at the same time... my DD loves to re-listen to the some books we have read together or she has read herself.    I have always attributed this to normal re-reading of a story you love (I am a huge re-reader) -- so I am not adverse to using the love of a specific story - I just don't buy into re-reading without that.

[LaughingCat]

She has done a small amount of Kindle Immersion reading.  It is a struggle to get her to do it, even with a book she knows well.  And I'd never heard of a Lego Writing thing - I'll have to look into that.

 

What I have not done (but was considering) is a literary element study.  I had been thinking about doing this with picture books or movies but have not gotten much further than thinking about it (and checking a few books out of the library).    This seems like it has great potential but so far it has been too amorphous for me and I haven't really gotten a handle on what I should do.

 

 

[Pen]

Look at some of the Critical Thinking Co. books. Reading Detective, maybe even some of their word riddle type books, Inference Jones, perhaps.  Less expensive than Language! and maybe could help.

 

 

My ds was quite good at opening books in a library or store situation and looking at first paragraphs and figuring out for himself what was at his next level of reading growth.

 

He also went a long way in progress with Magic Tree House, but I think your dd may be both stage and age past that?

 

Hank the Cowdog also had some word play going on, but again, not sure if your dd is past that stage.   (I do not know Thea Stilton, so that does not help me with understanding your dd's stage.)

 

What about Harry Potter books?

 

 

 

The Laura Ingalls Wilder and Rose books have a certain amount of reading between the lines.

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

... And  I have found out that the only audio books she is truly listening to are repeats of what she has already heard via me or read herself or at the same level she is reading at. 

 

...

 

 

Why not try getting lots for her at that level? She may need  plenty of exposure at this level, both what she reads to herself, and audio books, before she can really move on. And if you play them while you can listen too, try talking about them.

[FairProspects]

Would she be insulted by Amelia Bedelia? There is so much word play in that series that is based on alternate meanings. If she would be okay with it that might be a good way to start working with interpretations.

[FairProspects]

I'd also suspect that some of this problem is not seeing the words and connecting that with the audio. That sound/symbol correlation is just a problem for dyslexics. My boys love audiobooks but ultimately they miss a lot of inference when they are not reading along. Something about seeing the words and connecting them with the story is critical to their comprehension. Could you start with Immersion Reading at her reading level and work up? Even if it is High Noon books because they are higher interest, if you have VoiceDream, you can send the books in to Bookscan and get them dropped as a PDF in your Dropbox that VoiceDream will read as immersion reading.

[LaughingCat]

I think the Immersion reading problem has more to do with tracking and visual 'stuttering' - she cannot keep up a regular pace like the reader does.  Even very easy books.   We are working on that via another method and she has improved quite a bit... but not enough to retry immersion reading at this point IMO. 

 

I have bought many Audible books.   She has certain books that she listens to over and over  (all of The Enchanted Forest Chronicles books and Tuesdays at the Castle are current favorites for example).     I gently push her to listen to new books but so far that is mostly not working for me -- she'll move to a different book but it will still be one she already knows the story.    This is part of her free reading so I'm not ready to assign any.    We do spend some read aloud time listening to audio books together (instead of me reading) - but it doesn't get her to listen to more books (other than any read aloud book might be added to her favorites list).   And for regular reading (vs. listening) I do assign what I think are appropriate level books and she slowly chugs through them (and we discuss any part she might be having trouble understanding).

 

However I'm not sure on the suggestion here - are you all thinking that if I can just get her to 'read' more, she will eventually be able to handle the harder sentences? 

 

[LaughingCat]

Thea Stilton books have basic short sentence structures (with lots of pictures and words with different colors/type):  

"Her friends said goodbye and left the library.  Paulina buried her nose in a book. When she looked up again, she saw the rising sun through the window."

from Thea Stilton Special Edition: The Secret of the Fairies

 

The Wizard of Oz is longer basic sentence structure (with antiquated wording which gives it the harder AR/lexile IMO): 

From the far north they heard a low wail of the wind, and Uncle Henry and Dorothy could see where the long grass bowed in waves before the coming storm. There now came a sharp whistling in the air from the south, and as they turned their eyes that way they saw ripples in the grass coming from that direction also.

 

Enchanted Chronicles, still pretty basic sentence structure

 

“I didn’t ask what you’d said about it,†the frog snapped. “I asked what you’re going to do. Nine times out of ten, talking is a way of avoiding doing things.â€
― Patricia C. Wrede, Dealing with Dragons

 

By contrast, The Hobbit -- note that the only 'hard' word in this sentence is "hobbit": 

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with thing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

 

[FairProspects]

So what are you doing for her instructional or assigned reading? You are right that you need to build up to those complex sentences. We usually work towards those with the boys' assigned literature & other LA work like vocabulary. They can read whatever they want for free time. Maybe I'm not understanding what you do for assigned reading?

[Heathermomster]

Heathermomster, one of the things that never made a difference in reading for DD was repeated readings  (and we did a lot of them through the school's PAL reading in both 1st and 3rd grade).  And when I was googling yesterday, I found one website that cited research showing that repeated reading made no difference for adolescent struggling readers.   I have also found that Lecka's method of watching the movie first has usually backfired on me - basically watching the movie generally makes DD not want to read the book (the opposite is not true- reading the book makes DD want to watch the movie).   But at the same time... my DD loves to re-listen to the some books we have read together or she has read herself.    I have always attributed this to normal re-reading of a story you love (I am a huge re-reader) -- so I am not adverse to using the love of a specific story - I just don't buy into re-reading without that.

That's interesting.  

 

With something like FIAR, the student also performs some sort of hands-on activity related to the story.  I'll need to ask TokyoMarie to expound a little. 

[Pen]

I think the Immersion reading problem has more to do with tracking and visual 'stuttering' - she cannot keep up a regular pace like the reader does.  Even very easy books.   We are working on that via another method and she has improved quite a bit... but not enough to retry immersion reading at this point IMO. 

 

I have bought many Audible books.   She has certain books that she listens to over and over  (all of The Enchanted Forest Chronicles books and Tuesdays at the Castle are current favorites for example).     I gently push her to listen to new books but so far that is mostly not working for me -- she'll move to a different book but it will still be one she already knows the story.    This is part of her free reading so I'm not ready to assign any.    We do spend some read aloud time listening to audio books together (instead of me reading) - but it doesn't get her to listen to more books (other than any read aloud book might be added to her favorites list).   And for regular reading (vs. listening) I do assign what I think are appropriate level books and she slowly chugs through them (and we discuss any part she might be having trouble understanding).

 

However I'm not sure on the suggestion here - are you all thinking that if I can just get her to 'read' more, she will eventually be able to handle the harder sentences? 

 

On the bold: are there books that she can read without "slow chugging?" And when you say "appropriate level" do you mean in terms of content or lexile, or what? How are you deciding what her level should be?

 

Where a book has to be read with slow chugging, or where someone else reading aloud has to stop to explain extremely often, it is likely to not be a pleasant enough experience to become self-reinforcing and motivating. You really have to be able to read/understand well enough to be able to sink into the fantasy world of the book for it to become a wonderful experience.

 

I'd probably use non-fiction to work on reading at the edge of "too hard" and "too much chugging."

 

Is Audible human read or computer generated reading? My ds did well with human read audio books: some checked out from library, some purchased, some gifts, some Learning Ally, some National Library Service (which I am entitled to due to brain injury).  I think computer generated reading is much harder to follow because amazing as they have managed to get it, it lacks understanding and feeling. I'd allow (encourage, celebrate) the listening over and over to favorite books. What she is doing may be exactly what she needs to do. And instilling a love of books is a big step toward more reading.

 

We have a wonderful children's librarian who was able to make some good suggestions of books and also audiobooks they had. One of her biggest and best suggestions was to get ds hooked on series books. I could read one to him, and then with the idea of the characters and set up of the book, he could read more and more of them. This helped to build up his speed and fluency a lot. That huge Magic Tree House series was tremendously helpful. Also he liked dogs so things with dogs like the Buddy Files, Hank the Cowdog etc. were hits and helpful. It sounds like your dd is more into fairies, which is an area I do not know so well, but I think there are lots in that category too. 

 

I also held some books that I expected my ds could get hooked on and refused to either read them aloud or let him see a movie until he'd read them himself. Harry Potter books, for example. And having friends who liked to read, once he had a level that allowed similar reading and taking about books, helped a lot too.

 

Personally, I think I would not be pushing to figure out the complicated sentence structures of The Hobbit, and things like that, until there was substantial fluency at the level of reading that she seems to be at now with much easier sentence structures. To me it is like trying to scaffold Algebra 2 when a child is still working on pre-algebra. Even if the child is Alg. 2 age, and you think she "should" be doing it, until the foundation is built the readiness would not be there. Yes, there can be a different level for read alouds than read to oneself books, but I would still stick with the level that seems to be fairly comfortable for that (Wrinkle in Time, you mentioned, and that would be fine).

 

On the italicized part, I am thinking that if she reads more at an increasingly difficult level, but in small increments and with plenty of time to absorb and plateau at each level she get to, she is likely to eventually be ready for more difficult sentences just as a child working methodically upward in math will eventually likely be ready to tackle Algebra 2. But some kids may not get to an Algebra 2 stage, in which case having them competent at basic math is still important. And the Hobbit with its outdated and convoluted sentence structure could also remain out of reach, but she could nonetheless become a competent reader of other things that are needed to do life well. My ds did read The Hobbit and LOTR, but after he had seen the movies. This was a case where I was not expecting him to read those books, but I thought familiarity with the story would be a good idea. It turned out he did want to read them, and I think that seeing the movies helped him to be able to read and understand them. (I understand that you said your dd does not tend to read things she has seen the movie of, but you could if you wanted use the movies for plot and characterization and all sorts of things like that. And maybe someday she will read them, and maybe not.)

 

 

 

Have you read The Book Whisperer?

[LaughingCat]

I am struggling to put my thoughts into words...

 

I have read The Book Whisperer many years ago when DD the older was young,(and since then Reading in the Wild)--  and at the time I loved it and it embodied exactly what I wanted for my children.  All you have to do is put the right good books into their hands, books they enjoy and can read, and they will bloom.   Now however I have done a 180 turn-- if that was all it took then DD would already have bloomed.   She wants to read.  She has books she loves the story of and would love to read herself.  She can read the words.   These three things do not make a reader in her case.    I am happy for those for who getting to a certain level of reading and finding the right book(s) was all it took.    But that is not my DD.  

 

("You Gotta BE the Book" is probably closer to my thoughts right now than "The Book Whisperer" for another book by a PS reading teacher -- although there are many things I disagree with in Wilhelm's book as well).

 

And the fact is that the amount of material she can get through is limited.  The way I see it there are two main choices - let her read and hope that she makes the connections she needs in the relatively small amount of material she will get through and move up in a reasonable time frame.  Or teach her explicitly.   And so far she has needed  explicit teaching in many other areas so why should this be different?    I am not asking that she be able to read (or listen to) The Hobbit tomorrow.  I am saying -- how can I scaffold her up to that given a limited amount of reading?   And since this is not an issue I have -- I am having trouble discerning how to split this out into explicit teachings.

 

This thread has made me realize however that perhaps I just need to move away from books and look at short passages/sentences (preferably taken from books)  -  I had gone the other direction because i wanted DD to read more complete stories (even if short).  Or maybe it just shows it is time to add a basic grammar program to our day (although I will not add a rules/memorization based program). (ETA) - or maybe a writing program - like the copia mentioned above.

[Pen]

Can she read things at all levels that HighNoon goes to fluently? For example, their American History and Civics materials? And have you tried their comprehension and fluency materials? If not, I'd start there both due to price and level. Fully work the program for fluency and comprehension. It sounds like she has mastered decoding, but not fluency and comprehension.

 

Have you tried a book whose title I cannot totally recall but something like: Power Tools for Accelerated Reading? (HN has it, but it is not published by them). It is not so expensive as Language! but goes up higher than HN's own materials, I think.

 

Have you tried study materials for level of standardized tests that are a bit above where she is now, working your way up progressively, or GED or SAT ones perhaps, to give reading passage practice at a higher level?

 

Could you perhaps find the main textbook part of the first level of Language! (or whatever level she would be at)  used, at not too high a price and give it a try for explicit instruction?

 

 

[Pen]

...

...  I am not asking that she be able to read (or listen to) The Hobbit tomorrow.  I am saying -- how can I scaffold her up to that given a limited amount of reading?  ...

 

 

My understanding is that quantity is significant in developing the ability.

 

 

Could you call HighNoon (which I know has some very nice helpful people who work there, not at the orders level, but who design the programs and will talk to be people on the phone), Sally Shaywitz's program at Yale, Barton (who also is supposed to be responsive to questions), and/or other places expert in reading issues and see if they can advise you?

 

Maybe you need further NP type evaluations with suggestions for an approach to follow at this point where she seems to have word decoding ability but not fluency and comprehension.

[LaughingCat]

Word mastery -  Power Tools looks similar to Rewards based on the summary but I am not worried about word mastery.  Yes, she still needs work on this but I am happy at how we are working on that currently.

Fluency (and tracking ) - she definitely needs work here but I am also happy with what I am using to work on fluency.

 

comprehension  - most books I've seen focus on things like -- background knowledge, asking questions, inferences, determining what's important.    Another type seems directed at similes, metaphors and idioms.     This is not really what I'm looking for. 
 The 'regular' comprehension books that I've looked at meant for these higher grades are definitely not what I'm looking for (usually a paragraph followed by general questions).    The SAT/GED books are like this as well (albeit far too hard for DD).  IMO these test comprehension - they don't really teach it that I can tell.

 

The High Noon Comprehension sample is just a couple sentences followed by "what's the main point?" questions.  We did type of thing with cards from Super Duper a few years back.   I almost think this would be good if only it was at a grade 5-8 level not 1-4.    However  this at least gives me the idea that I could try to make something like this myself based on sentence complexity.   It would also force me to isolate the type of sentences that I think are an issue.  

 

I appreciate all the suggestions and thoughtfulness in making them! 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Maybe explore Suppose the Wolf Were an Octopus? Grades 5 to 6.

 

ETA:  She could also practice sentence combining.  

 

 

[FairProspects]

What about something like Visualizing and Verbalizing? Maybe she is not visualizing along with the story when heard?

[Pen]

Word mastery -  Power Tools looks similar to Rewards based on the summary but I am not worried about word mastery.  Yes, she still needs work on this but I am happy at how we are working on that currently.

Fluency (and tracking ) - she definitely needs work here but I am also happy with what I am using to work on fluency.

 

comprehension  - most books I've seen focus on things like -- background knowledge, asking questions, inferences, determining what's important.    Another type seems directed at similes, metaphors and idioms.     This is not really what I'm looking for. 

 The 'regular' comprehension books that I've looked at meant for these higher grades are definitely not what I'm looking for (usually a paragraph followed by general questions).    The SAT/GED books are like this as well (albeit far too hard for DD).  IMO these test comprehension - they don't really teach it that I can tell.

 

 

 

I was not thinking in terms of individual words, or what the comprehension questions ask, but rather sources that might provide many relatively short reading passages for her to practice with under your guidance and with your help--not depending on the book to do the teaching-- at increasingly rising levels of difficulty from things like Power Tools and standardized test practice materials at elementary level on up through GED and SAT prep for high school to college level passages--rather than whole books. 

 

Edcon also may have books with passages that rise in difficulty incrementally, though the one I saw I did not particularly like.

 

I looked at what I have of Language! and it may not have hard enough sentences to work on, btw., it looks more like higher level content materials presented in short declarative sentences.

 

Another thing that might fit could be Spectrum workbook series in science if they get to a high enough/hard enough level. They have page long (more or less) passages progressing from 3rd grade to 8th grade level books. You can ignore the questions asked if they do not fit, but just help her to work on understanding how to read the passages.

 

I think it might be too hard for your dd to read herself now, but my ds and I are gradually working through the Penguin History of the World, 6th ed. at just a couple of pages or so per day. It has convoluted sentence structure a bit like The Hobbit--but is not also antiquated sounding on top of the convolutions. The words are harder in many cases, but if words are not an issue, it might be workable perhaps as a read aloud beyond Wrinkle in Time but easier than Hobbit.

[LaughingCat]

Oooh... that Sentence Combining looks very interesting.

 

Pen, actually the 'testing' books are a good idea now that I've looked at a few on grade level and above.  They seem more like what I was looking for than the 'comprehension' books I've looked at.  But boy, going back to doing page style reading sure feels like a step back in the wrong direction.  I will have to meditate on why that seems to bother me so much - the only thing I've got right now is that DD got to the point that she could ace a 1 pager at grade level+(comprehension question wise) AND still struggle with understanding books 2+ grades behind.  That's when I made the decision that I needed to move her to harder picture books and short stories for instructional reading.   But maybe that is just because I was doing the wrong kinds of 1 pages -  the struggling reader ones we used were more declarative and focused on vocabulary, rather than sentence complexity.

 

[Heathermomster]

As your DD reads, teach her to take picture notes in the margins. It is a style of annotating to help trigger recall. A collection of short stories could be found using a standard classroom literature text book.

[Heathermomster]

Oooh... that Sentence Combining looks very interesting.

 

Pen, actually the 'testing' books are a good idea now that I've looked at a few on grade level and above. They seem more like what I was looking for than the 'comprehension' books I've looked at. But boy, going back to doing page style reading sure feels like a step back in the wrong direction. I will have to meditate on why that seems to bother me so much - the only thing I've got right now is that DD got to the point that she could ace a 1 pager at grade level+(comprehension question wise) AND still struggle with understanding books 2+ grades behind. That's when I made the decision that I needed to move her to harder picture books and short stories for instructional reading. But maybe that is just because I was doing the wrong kinds of 1 pages - the struggling reader ones we used were more declarative and focused on vocabulary, rather than sentence complexity.

I have never seen that sentence combining book so have no idea of its worthiness. I went on Amazon last night and purchased a sentence combining book that was published in the 1980s. Oh, that is so old!

 

You could take basic readers and have your child combine sentences and dress them up. I keep thinking about these things because I want to work with my own children.

[Pen]

Oooh... that Sentence Combining looks very interesting.

 

Pen, actually the 'testing' books are a good idea now that I've looked at a few on grade level and above.  They seem more like what I was looking for than the 'comprehension' books I've looked at.  But boy, going back to doing page style reading sure feels like a step back in the wrong direction.  I will have to meditate on why that seems to bother me so much - the only thing I've got right now is that DD got to the point that she could ace a 1 pager at grade level+(comprehension question wise) AND still struggle with understanding books 2+ grades behind.  That's when I made the decision that I needed to move her to harder picture books and short stories for instructional reading.   But maybe that is just because I was doing the wrong kinds of 1 pages -  the struggling reader ones we used were more declarative and focused on vocabulary, rather than sentence complexity.

 

 

I don't think you should have her stop doing longer reading--that could be done at the level where it is a pleasure either as a read aloud or as independent reading. But you could focus on shorter passages for practice on stretching her abilities for more intense reading work.

 

I also think that there may be something missing in her visualizing, and that could be explicitly taught to her to try to do more of. As I was thinking about The Hobbit and how I approach that:  each phrase gets visualized as I come to it. A hole. A Hobbit, whatever that is--the image starts murky but gets filled in by later sentences plus imagination.

Then all the things the hole is not are visualized, then some personal idea of what comfort would mean is visualized. The sentence structure is more like a movie, telling me where to aim my imagination as if my imagination were a multisensory camera. 

 

I am not taking the sentences and turning them around in my mind as if they were simple declarative sentences, searching for the subject and verb, or anything like that--I am just picturing each image and idea as it gets presented. 

 

You could actually have her use the first few sentences of The Hobbit as a model and do some sentence combining and imitation based on them, perhaps also.

 

 

Image Grammar  is not so much for a student to use as for the teacher, but might be another interesting resource for you since it explicitly deals with how sentences move imagination along like a camera.

[LaughingCat]

 I actually pulled my V&V manual back out a week ago and have been trying to make time to go though it wondering if a deeper visualization would allow her to 'gloss' over the issue. 

 

However I am not sure the issue itself is visualizing.  Trying to think it through -- here is what I think happens:

 

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.  <-- this she understands with no problem (when I actually read this she asked "what is a hobbit?" and I said "wait and I think it will tell you")

Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell,  <-- here I think she gets slightly thrown by the phrasing

nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: <--I think she is loses the meaning here completely since she is mentally still working on the first part

it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.  <-- she probably does not know the idiom  "that means comfort" - although she generally does ok inferring what idioms mean, any inferring would go down the tubes due to brain power being used on earlier parts of the sentence

 

This is why I think the issue is more along the lines that the unusual structure is too hard with her slow processing/low working memory.  She can't do this type of thinking 'fast' without a lot of practice.

 

I guess I need to sit down with a book and pick out specific sentences that I think might be an issue and then try them out on her. And try out variations on them.   Both verbally and with her reading them.   For example, I could take out the 2nd phrase and see if that made it easier

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell  .... : it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

 

And actually analyzing this particular sentence I wonder if the whole issue isn't the not/nor structure - if I took that out to start with:

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. <It wasn't >  a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell <or > a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

 

I suppose I was just hoping to find that someone else had already done something like this.    Like Pen's comment above that "quantity is significant in developing the ability" --  I know that is the normal way to develop it -but that doesn't mean that some kids don't need more explicit teaching.  And DD has needed more explicit teaching and explicit practice on so many things related to reading so far, why should this be different? 

 

And as I've said, the quantity is just not going to be there anytime soon - if I start thinking that way I think I will just give up (and lay down and cry )

 

 

 

[Lecka]

That is such a convoluted sentence.  The second sentence is something like 43 words. 

 

If you think not/nor is an issue, I would look for easier examples, and then maybe have that as like the silly, bonus not/nor sentence. 

 

It sounds like it is just ---- a really, really long sentence, and you think her working memory is lower.  I think it would be enough to just explain it and move on.  I think there are a lot of people who do fine and are skipping over sentences like this. 

 

If she cares and wants to know -- that is different. 

 

Separately -- I think of my son as having several different reading/listening levels.  He is at one level for reading.  He is at one level for reading when he has background information (like plot, characters).  He is at one level when the story is fairly formulaic and is written with fairly easy styles of writing.  He is at one level for listening to things he is familiar with.  He is at one level for listening to things with a lot of dialogue.  (Dialogue is hard for him -- it just gets very vague -- he gets lost in books at a much lower level when they get to be saying "then she said this to her" "she said this" and things like that.) 

 

They are all kind-of different levels.  I don't expect him to be on just one level.  There are different things making things easier or harder for him to read or listen to ---- their presence or absence makes a huge difference in what level he is at. 

 

He could not follow a Clementine book b/c dialogue, at a 2nd grade reading level, and easily at his decoding level, recently, that I was attempting as a read-aloud ----- yet he can read things harder.  He also liked a Clementine read-aloud at school with the teacher discussing portions they had read with the class -- it just got old doing it at home for whatever reason. 

 

I also think there is a lot to be said for quality and direct instruction.... I don't think it always has to be quantity and pick-it-up-as-you-go.  They both can get to the same place :)

[Pen]

If you are reading it (Hobbit) aloud to her, are you yourself picturing the images and using your voice, gestures and facial expressions to try to convey meaning while reading, even things like shaking your head no as you come to the not and nor, and going oowey-gooey sounding for the worm ends?

 

Sort of the way Shakespeare can be performed so that audiences can "get" it--even though much of it is archaic?

 

How about 1/4 or so of the movie to watch and get some scaffolding from that, and then read up to or past the point watched, and go back and forth like that....

 

Not the whole movie so the ending is ruined, but enough to get a bit of an idea?  And you could talk about differences between movie and book, and how you each pictured things from the book's descriptions compared to the movie portrayal?

 

 

[Pen]

 

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.  <-- this she understands with no problem (when I actually read this she asked "what is a hobbit?" and I said "wait and I think it will tell you")

 

Hmmm. I think I might have been inclined to help with saying that it is a creature who the author will tell us more about, but that this will be a main character of the story who lives in this hole, and that a hobbit is very tiny, and very fast, and good at moving unseen, and quite human-like (when I read the book myself as a kid, I did not picture the hobbits to be as human-like as the movies have them look).  Here and also when it comes to the idea of "comfort" is part of where I think seeing at least a bit of the movie could help you to scaffold this.

 

Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell,  <-- here I think she gets slightly thrown by the phrasing

 

 

I might try a bit of editing on the fly if I thought there would be difficulty understanding this and say (and I am trying to show with the line breaks where I'd be pausing to let each image have a chance to sink in, and again trying to almost act it out with voice and expressions)

 

 "It was not 

a nasty,

dirty,

wet

hole,

filled with [  ] worms

and an oozy smell

 

It was not [   ]

a dry,

bare,

sandy

hole

with nothing in it to sit down on

[and nothing] to eat: 

 

it was a hobbit-hole,

and that means

comfort.

 

 

<-- she probably does not know the idiom  "that means comfort" - although she generally does ok inferring what idioms mean, any inferring would go down the tubes due to brain power being used on earlier parts of the sentence

 

This is why I think the issue is more along the lines that the unusual structure is too hard with her slow processing/low working memory.  She can't do this type of thinking 'fast' without a lot of practice.

 

I guess I need to sit down with a book and pick out specific sentences that I think might be an issue and then try them out on her. And try out variations on them.   Both verbally and with her reading them.   For example, I could take out the 2nd phrase and see if that made it easier

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell  .... : it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

 

And actually analyzing this particular sentence I wonder if the whole issue isn't the not/nor structure - if I took that out to start with:

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. <It wasn't >  a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell <or > a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

 

I suppose I was just hoping to find that someone else had already done something like this.    Like Pen's comment above that "quantity is significant in developing the ability" --  I know that is the normal way to develop it -but that doesn't mean that some kids don't need more explicit teaching.  And DD has needed more explicit teaching and explicit practice on so many things related to reading so far, why should this be different? 

 

And as I've said, the quantity is just not going to be there anytime soon - if I start thinking that way I think I will just give up (and lay down and cry )

 

Oh dear, don't give up! How about a  cozy comfortable cup of tea with a tasty slice of cake like a hobbit might have?