Help...fluency

[Stellalarella]

OK, I've got two dc in the middle here who are struggling on fluency.  When they read aloud it is pretty choppy, they lose their places easily and generally struggle.  They both will substitute words often.  They are in 4th and 5th grade.  I have two older children who are both excellent readers and a 2nd grader who can fluently read chapter books, so I can see clearly how ds4th and dd5th are having a difficult time.

 

Both kiddos were taught to read with Phonics Pathways.  We use AAS and do work on the phonemes.  We read aloud daily for science and history.  I model good fluency during our readings and they copy.  We do poem memorization and they each have a parent read to them at night.  

 

What else can I do? What has worked for you?  

[Aras]

:lurk5:

[Kathie in VA]

Working on the same here w dd (4th). I'm hoping the joint read alouds will help lots. I'm also spending more time with her spelling to shore up her phonics there. I started her in the BookIt program from Pizza Hut where she can earn a free pizza for reaching reading goals (working on adding practice w this). At this point she is reading 20 min a day very willingly ( plus our joint read alouds).

Good luck with yours! N I'm gonna watch for more ideas :)

[creekmom]

Have you tried Reader's Theater? You might find some at your library, or Amazon has lots http://www.amazon.com/Fabulously-Funny-Fairy-Tale-Plays/dp/0439153891/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411525686&sr=8-2&keywords=Readers+theater+grade+4 Even though they are written for a class setting, you can just give your kids more than one part.

 

Another book I've used for my son is http://www.amazon.com/Increasing-Fluency-Frequency-Phrases-Grade/dp/1425802893/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1411525930&sr=8-5&keywords=fluency+5th+grade. It comes with a cd of someone reading each passage. Have your kids practice reading just one passage all week - or as long as it takes to read it well, and then move on to the next one.

[ElizabethB]

I would run them through this quickly:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

 

If they have problems after that, I would investigate their vision with a COVD doctor, it could be a vision problem. Here is the symptom checklist:

 

https://covd.site-ym.com/?page=Symptoms

[ElizabethB]

I would compare WPM rates with different sized fonts, and with single spaced vs. double spaced. If there is a vision problem, more accurate and more fluent reading will likely occur with larger fonts and possibly also with double spaced type.

 

Also, if they have a guessing habit developed somehow from word shape, they will be able to read all uppercase more accurately than a mixed case font. Nonsense words help if it is shape guessing and not vision.

 

From my dyslexia page, a recommendation from Dr. Mosse:

 

"A folded piece of paper or, much better, an unlined card should be held above the line the child is reading, not beneath it. This is the so-called Cover Card Method of treating Linear Dyslexia. The reason for this position of the card is that it can steady the eyes, which have a tendency to wander above and not below the line being read, and it can connect the end of one line with the beginning of the next, thus indicating the return sweep and making it easier on the child's eyes. By blotting out all the text that has just been read, the cover card helps the child to concentrate on just that one line he is reading. By holding the card at a slant with the left corner slightly lower than the right, and by pushing it down while he reads, the child steadies his gaze and at the same time pushes his eyes from left to right and down via a correct return sweep from one line to the next. This is by far the simplest, cheapest, and most effective treatment for Linear Dyslexia."

[Stellalarella]

I would compare WPM rates with different sized fonts, and with single spaced vs. double spaced. If there is a vision problem, more accurate and more fluent reading will likely occur with larger fonts and possibly also with double spaced type.

 

Also, if they have a guessing habit developed somehow from word shape, they will be able to read all uppercase more accurately than a mixed case font. Nonsense words help if it is shape guessing and not vision.

 

From my dyslexia page, a recommendation from Dr. Mosse:

 

"A folded piece of paper or, much better, an unlined card should be held above the line the child is reading, not beneath it. This is the so-called Cover Card Method of treating Linear Dyslexia. The reason for this position of the card is that it can steady the eyes, which have a tendency to wander above and not below the line being read, and it can connect the end of one line with the beginning of the next, thus indicating the return sweep and making it easier on the child's eyes. By blotting out all the text that has just been read, the cover card helps the child to concentrate on just that one line he is reading. By holding the card at a slant with the left corner slightly lower than the right, and by pushing it down while he reads, the child steadies his gaze and at the same time pushes his eyes from left to right and down via a correct return sweep from one line to the next. This is by far the simplest, cheapest, and most effective treatment for Linear Dyslexia."

 

Thank you ElizabethB.  Ds reads easier from a book like Magic Tree House--there is more space between the lines, the font is larger, the paper is off white--than from our Story of the World History book.  I've been having him use a card underneath the line, but will try the Mosse suggestion.

 

I have the Webster's Spelling Book Method and I will get it back out.  I didn't do it with them last year but we can certainly start again.  

 

Thank you.

[Stellalarella]

Have you tried Reader's Theater? You might find some at your library, or Amazon has lots http://www.amazon.com/Fabulously-Funny-Fairy-Tale-Plays/dp/0439153891/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411525686&sr=8-2&keywords=Readers+theater+grade+4 Even though they are written for a class setting, you can just give your kids more than one part.

 

Another book I've used for my son is http://www.amazon.com/Increasing-Fluency-Frequency-Phrases-Grade/dp/1425802893/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1411525930&sr=8-5&keywords=fluency+5th+grade. It comes with a cd of someone reading each passage. Have your kids practice reading just one passage all week - or as long as it takes to read it well, and then move on to the next one.

 

Hi Creekmom.  I haven't been doing a reader's theater, but it sounds like fun.  I have enough enough kids for a class...  :) and we are a rather dramatic group.  

 

I had read online that kids can benefit from reading selections aloud and recording them, then replaying the recording so the student can get feedback--so I had been trying that with Ds.  He likes reading books for the Video Photobooth on our computer. 

[ElizabethB]

It does sound like a vision issue may be contributing. Some insurance will pay for a COVD exam but not therapy, some will pay for therapy but not the initial exam. I would try to get an exam done, but in the meantime, here is a book of vision therapy exercises you can work through at home. People I know with children with vision problems have said that the ones that help are hard for their child. You have time to work through the whole book and see if any are tough and need repeated work, for an older child with less time, I would recommend figuring out the exact problem area first.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556425953/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Stellalarella]

What seems odd to me is that even though reading is hard for these two kids and they struggle to read aloud fluently is that they both love books.  I suspect that Ds, in particular, does have vision issues, but yet he loves looking at (and reading) books.....

 

The thought of adding vision therapy to teaching these 6 kids....does someone have a clone machine I can borrow?  

[OneStepAtATime]

Besides the possible vision issues you might look into stealth dyslexia.  Read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide and look on the website below to see if anything speaks to you.  Highly intelligent dyslexics frequently have gifts that mask the weaknesses, making it hard for a layman to determine what the real issue or issues may be.  There are a lot of stealth dyslexics that love silent reading (many don't but many do).  However, they still may have poor fluency/decoding skills.  The strength for many is their ability to glean context just from the few words they CAN decode accurately and fluently.  Therefore they remain un-diagnosed.  Where it becomes obvious there is an issue is when they try to read out loud but because they are seemingly reading well when they read silently or they enjoy reading parents assume dyslexia cannot be a possibility.  Check out the site below for more info...

 

http://www.bartonreading.com/dys.html

 

If they are dyslexic, you may need a program designed specifically for dyslexic students.  There are many, some designed specifically to be used by parents at home.

[momto2Cs]

Hi, I have a dyslexic 11 year old daughter. We're using Reading Horizons for the bulk of our work (I think they have a free trial), but we're doing additional reading on the side...

 

I found a few books at the library she could read fairly well/fluently

I looked up the reading levels for the books she could do this with

I then found other books starting at just below at that level (builds confidence and fluency), and now we're increasing her reading level bit by bit

 

It seems to be working pretty well.

 

Scholastic's Book Wizard is handy for finiding the reading level of a book, and books at a similar level, as well as easier/more advanced titles. Reading a-z also has a good listing by level.

 

[Stellalarella]

Besides the possible vision issues you might look into stealth dyslexia.  Read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide and look on the website below to see if anything speaks to you.  Highly intelligent dyslexics frequently have gifts that mask the weaknesses, making it hard for a layman to determine what the real issue or issues may be.  There are a lot of stealth dyslexics that love silent reading (many don't but many do).  However, they still may have poor fluency/decoding skills.  The strength for many is their ability to glean context just from the few words they CAN decode accurately and fluently.  Therefore they remain un-diagnosed.  Where it becomes obvious there is an issue is when they try to read out loud but because they are seemingly reading well when they read silently or they enjoy reading parents assume dyslexia cannot be a possibility.  Check out the site below for more info...

 

http://www.bartonreading.com/dys.html

 

If they are dyslexic, you may need a program designed specifically for dyslexic students.  There are many, some designed specifically to be used by parents at home.

 Interesting.  I've taught the kids to read using phonics and syllable based instruction.  I avoided teaching sight words purposefully with the last 4 kids.  We learn about spelling rules (and are serious about learning spelling) from the All About Spelling program.  AAS takes the Orton-Gillingham approach to phonemes and emphasizes the importance of spelling in learning to read. It uses spelling tiles and graphic tiles to mark different syllable types.   The website you linked seems pretty vague on real details to to me, but I glanced at the handout that goes along with the 39 minute talk to homeschoolers and the components of the the "Barton System" seem similar to AAS.  None of the advice was exactly earth shatteringly different.

 

Thank you for the link and relying to me.  I appreciate seeing the info.

 

 

I am formulating a plan.  First step is to give Ds and Dd some of the helpful assessments from ElizabethB's 40L resources.  I can do their quick assessment and also the MWIA.  We'll pull the Webster's Speller back out.  I can do some reading about the vision therapy to see if that applies.  

 

I just had him read with the notecard on top of the line instead of underneath.  Whoa!  That was some kind of instantaneous positive results.  

[Stellalarella]

Momto2Cs--thank you for the link to Horizons.  I can't help but notice that both Horizons and Barton are big investment.  

 

The BookWizard link was helpful.  :)  I was previously logging into our library to use the AR list for grade levels.  Book Wizard will be a simpler tool to use for that purpose.

 

 

[ElizabethB]

That is great that the card above helped! Vision therapy will most likely help if it is what Mosse calls "Linear dyslexia." If you want to read her book, it is a bit old but she worked extensively in the field, doing both research and hands on tutoring, so her tips are particularly valuable:

 

Mosse, Hilde L, M.D., "The Complete Handbook of Children's Reading Disorders," 1982. It is sold either as one giant volume or as a two volume series, you can also get it through your library, most likely through ILL from a big library or college library.

 

However, I think her only tip for linear dyslexia is the cover card and to limit or eliminate comic book reading, because the arrangement of comic book writing causes the eye to jump around to read the text in the exact way your are trying to untrain for normal reading. This is not an issue for most comic book readers, but it is for someone prone to skipping words and losing their place.

[Stellalarella]

That is great that the card above helped! Vision therapy will most likely help if it is what Mosse calls "Linear dyslexia." If you want to read her book, it is a bit old but she worked extensively in the field, doing both research and hands on tutoring, so her tips are particularly valuable:

 

Mosse, Hilde L, M.D., "The Complete Handbook of Children's Reading Disorders," 1982. It is sold either as one giant volume or as a two volume series, you can also get it through your library, most likely through ILL from a big library or college library.

 

However, I think her only tip for linear dyslexia is the cover card and to limit or eliminate comic book reading, because the arrangement of comic book writing causes the eye to jump around to read the text in the exact way your are trying to untrain for normal reading. This is not an issue for most comic book readers, but it is for someone prone to skipping words and losing their place.

 

Oh.  This boy and girl love comic books.  I mean...they really, really love comic books.  We have a friend who gives them Classics Illustrated.  All that to say, it's not just the Justice League.  Although they are definitely Justice League fans....  :)

[ElizabethB]

Oh. This boy and girl love comic books. I mean...they really, really love comic books. We have a friend who gives them Classics Illustrated. All that to say, it's not just the Justice League. Although they are definitely Justice League fans.... :)

Mosse claimed that extensive comic book reading could actually cause linear dyslexia...

 

I thought she might be a bit excessive with that, but maybe she knew what she was talking about?

[OneStepAtATime]

 Interesting.  I've taught the kids to read using phonics and syllable based instruction.  I avoided teaching sight words purposefully with the last 4 kids.  We learn about spelling rules (and are serious about learning spelling) from the All About Spelling program.  AAS takes the Orton-Gillingham approach to phonemes and emphasizes the importance of spelling in learning to read. It uses spelling tiles and graphic tiles to mark different syllable types.   The website you linked seems pretty vague on real details to to me, but I glanced at the handout that goes along with the 39 minute talk to homeschoolers and the components of the the "Barton System" seem similar to AAS.  None of the advice was exactly earth shatteringly different.

 

Thank you for the link and relying to me.  I appreciate seeing the info.

 

 

I am formulating a plan.  First step is to give Ds and Dd some of the helpful assessments from ElizabethB's 40L resources.  I can do their quick assessment and also the MWIA.  We'll pull the Webster's Speller back out.  I can do some reading about the vision therapy to see if that applies.  

 

I just had him read with the notecard on top of the line instead of underneath.  Whoa!  That was some kind of instantaneous positive results.  

It is great that you started with phonics to begin with.  Yeah for you, Mom!  

 

Just to mention, for others who may be reading this, while AAS is OG based, it is not considered an OG system.  With some dyslexics they actually need things broken down even further than AAS, so something like Barton or Wilson or Lindamood Bell (more specifically OG based) becomes a more effective program than AAS.  AAS/AAR can be really slow for many, but actually goes too fast and makes too many leaps for others.  :)  In fact, even Barton, that breaks things down into really tiny pieces, can actually be too big a leap for certain dyslexics and they have to go even further back by using something like the Lindamood Bell LiPS program before tackling something like Barton.

 

But OP if you have a plan without the expense and time of one of those programs mentioned above you may be a lot happier.  They are great programs, but expensive and time consuming.  If they aren't necessary, I wouldn't spend the money (they were definitely necessary for us and I do not regret the money or the time invested since I have seen first hand the huge strides the kids have made but if we had had success going a different route I would have followed the other path :) ).

 

Best wishes and good luck!  :)

[Kathie in VA]

Hey, I tried using the index card Above The line today and it worked well here too!

 

I had already taken her in for extensive eye exam and they didn't find anything (then again we were trying to find an answer for her headaches). Appearently it's not her eyes.

 

So her reading aloud went a but better today. And she is still silent reading without complaint. I hope to look into these resources ... Maybe the library will have the books but I can't buy anything now.

[ElizabethB]

Hey, I tried using the index card Above The line today and it worked well here too!

 

I had already taken her in for extensive eye exam and they didn't find anything (then again we were trying to find an answer for her headaches). Appearently it's not her eyes.

 

So her reading aloud went a but better today. And she is still silent reading without complaint. I hope to look into these resources ... Maybe the library will have the books but I can't buy anything now.

Did you see a COVD eye doctor? They look for different things than a normal eye doctor.

[Kathie in VA]

Hmm no I don't think so. Will have to try that if need be after dh gets another job and we have insurance again.

[ElizabethB]

Hmm no I don't think so. Will have to try that if need be after dh gets another job and we have insurance again.

 

:grouphug:

 

Here are copies of the vision exercises book in VA, maybe you could get it through ILL and try some of the vision exercises.  Moms with kids with problems say that the ones that are tough are the ones that will help in the long run!  If there is not a problem, they can do them easily and you just move on until you hit one that is tough and will need repeated work.

 

http://www.worldcat.org/title/developing-ocular-motor-and-visual-perceptual-skills-an-activity-workbook/oclc/56386886&referer=brief_results

[Stellalarella]

Ok, so if a child has only been taught to read using phonics (we used Phonics Pathways, Webster's Speller--a little for this ds, and All About Spelling, covering up the pictures in BOB books) how can this kid end up as a holistic reader?  I'm looking at the scores from the MWIA and I am totally dismayed.  

[Stellalarella]

UPDATE:  I took DS9  through ElizbethB's phonics lessons, then we took a happy break over Christmas, and voila!  the kid is reading!  and reading fluently!  and reading for fun!  and reading for long periods of time! and even his siblings are high-fiving him over the much improved fluency!  

 

What a world of difference!  Thank you!

 

[ElizabethB]

:party:

 

That is great!