Allearia Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 My ds completed Lukeion Latin 3 last year and is signed up for 4 but is thinking he might want to wait to take it. He is thinking that the course workload will be much higher, and that he might not be ready for the writing. Given that we have plenty of experience with the Lukeion course workload, how have your students found the Latin 4/AP course to compare to Latin 3? How much more time does the writing add? If we decide to wait to do it for another year, we will get a tutor and make sure he retains and keeps up his Latin so he is ready for the AP course next fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Hi Laura, Latin 4 is a significant leap in workload, and the writing assignments are much tougher and graded much more critically. That said, I would be afraid to stop for a year--Latin 3 is really the perfect prep for it. If your son is really concerned, I would write Amy and ask her advice. She knows your son's strengths and would be in the best position to determine his writing-readiness. My guess is that if he did well this year with the word studies, he'll be fine. Am I remembering correctly that your son is younger? My dd2 is younger too (rising 10th) and completed Latin 4 in May with a 5 on the AP. It was a hard class and there were even tears at times. But she is so very proud of her accomplishment (and so am I!). Lukeion was absolutely one of the best educational experiences we've had to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjbucks1 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 My ds also took Latin 4 last year. He is a rising 11th grader, so maybe a year older than Elise's dd (ds will be 17 in September). He did not feel it was significantly more work than Latin 3. Ds told me that there is more Latin to translate, but by Latin 4 the kids are better at it, so it took him about the same amount of time as Latin 3. Ds only got a 4 on the AP exam, though, so maybe he should have spent more time on Latin...LOL!! Ds was very happy with his score as he was also prepping for AP Physics, competing in speech and debate, as well as swimming competitively. I would be hesitant to take a year off of Latin as well. Contacting Amy and asking her advice is a great idea. Blessings, Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allearia Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Thank you both. I am also very hesitant to take a year off but my ds will be taking a very challenging Ancient Greek class next year. He is only 12 so he is significantly younger than the norm. He did okay with the writing assignments in Latin 3 but not stellar, and this past semester for some reason he had a challenging time overall and didn't receive as high grades on his work as in the past. I am thinking possibly puberty is finally taking its toll. I am also feeling that if he wants to just concentrate on the Greek and ease up on Latin it is fine, but I would hate to see him come so far and then not maintain it or have an AP score to show for it at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Thank you both. I am also very hesitant to take a year off but my ds will be taking a very challenging Ancient Greek class next year. He is only 12 so he is significantly younger than the norm. He did okay with the writing assignments in Latin 3 but not stellar, and this past semester for some reason he had a challenging time overall and didn't receive as high grades on his work as in the past. I am thinking possibly puberty is finally taking its toll. I am also feeling that if he wants to just concentrate on the Greek and ease up on Latin it is fine, but I would hate to see him come so far and then not maintain it or have an AP score to show for it at some point. Under those circumstances, I would indeed consider doing a light year of Latin and then re-evaluating the whole picture. Plenty of people stop at Latin 3, or given his age, he could redo pre-AP Latin with another provider (some call that Latin 4 and then AP Latin is Latin 5) followed by AP Latin with Lukeion or another provider. Also have you considered having him take the SAT II Latin in December? Many colleges look at that favorably, and it also measures achievement without the big commitment of AP Latin. It covers the content of Lukeion's Latin 3 (which is considered one of the tougher Latin 3 classes) and is multiple choice. One of the colleges we're considering actually prefers it over the AP, so we did both. Just some ideas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenda in MA Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Under those circumstances, I would indeed consider doing a light year of Latin and then re-evaluating the whole picture. Plenty of people stop at Latin 3, or given his age, he could redo pre-AP Latin with another provider (some call that Latin 4 and then AP Latin is Latin 5) followed by AP Latin with Lukeion or another provider. Also have you considered having him take the SAT II Latin in December? Many colleges look at that favorably, and it also measures achievement without the big commitment of AP Latin. It covers the content of Lukeion's Latin 3 (which is considered one of the tougher Latin 3 classes) and is multiple choice. One of the colleges we're considering actually prefers it over the AP, so we did both. Just some ideas... I agree that with a 12 yo, I might consider waiting on AP Latin. My ds took Lukeion Latin 3 in 10th & 4 in 11th grade and made a 5 on the AP exam. He is a very strong writer, and the essay portion on the AP is a pretty big portion of the score, so even if your son is great with the Latin, if he can't write a good essay quickly on the AP, it will hurt his score. There was one 7th grader in ds's Latin 4 class, and that student struggled with the essays as well. I think that student was very capable (in terms of scores on the Lukeion exams), but struggling with the writing hurt their AP score. As far as workload goes, my son found Latin 4 easier than Latin 3. The workload seemed similar, but with Latin 3, there are so many authors covered, just when you get used to one author, you are moving on to another one. Spending a whole semester on one author in AP Latin was nice. Also, my son used Henle for many years prior to Latin 3, and it uses Caesar as its base, so my son found the Caesar part of Latin 4 to be pretty straight forward. HTH, Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 You know, considering his age and his apprehension about the writing, I might be tempted to come up with an alternate plan too. Does your ds want to continue Latin or has he maxed out? It sounds like he is really into Greek. Is he interested in keeping multiple languages going at the high school level? I have one dd who only completed through Lukeion Latin 3, and there's no shame in that! She is an artist, and there are only so many hours in the day. She did take the SAT2, so I agree that would be a great possibility. Your ds has had all the grammar he needs to do well on that--just make sure you request that the College Board keeps his scores since he is younger than 9th. I know there was a recent thread about that. Good luck with your decision. It gets tougher as they get older, doesn't it?! There are so many cool things to do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Elise, I was just wondering what happens to SAT scores for a child below 9th grade. We will be in a similar position, so it's good to know these things in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allearia Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 That is a good idea about the SAT II subject test. I think whether he wants to spend a lot more time studying Latin depends on whether he decides to study classics in college or if it will be more of a hobby. In addition, he may be able to take a Latin class at the university before the end of high school, which would make taking the AP test a lot less important. I think I will go ahead and let him drop the Lukeion Latin 4 and just make sure he keeps up with a tutor this year as much as possible. This will be the first year he hasn't had a Lukeion class for a while, that will be weird! Thank you all so much for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 We're headed into Lukeion Latin 3. Can you tell me what the writing is like? Writing is not dd's strength, and I hope Latin 3 doesn't overwhelm her. She has an intense year with college aps, auditions, and finishing a heavy load to graduate. Thanks so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 1Togo, I'm picking up dd1 today from a summer intensive, but I'll write more about the Word Studies in Latin 3 as soon as I get back, if no one else chimes in first. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm not sure how much the tutor would cost, but since he's not yet in high school and thus you don't have to worry about odd-looking repeat courses on the transcript, would repeating Latin III with another provider be an option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Thank you. I am trying to plan and trying to make the workload reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allearia Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 I'm not sure how much the tutor would cost, but since he's not yet in high school and thus you don't have to worry about odd-looking repeat courses on the transcript, would repeating Latin III with another provider be an option? Well, we had a wonderful Greek tutor for two years who finally got his doctorate and has just moved on to a permanent position. He was $65 /hour so I assume that is what the Latin would be. That is a good idea about just doing Latin 3 again. Ds did pretty well in Lukeion Latin 3, but if the class was translating mostly different pieces, it would be a great reinforcement and maintenance without such a heavy commitment. That said, does anyone have a recommendation for a (mostly) secular Latin 3 class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Lone Pine has a Latin 300/400 class that is not AP (their AP class is 5th year). They alternate between poetry & prose, and this year is poetry — they are listing the Catullus and Horace readers from Bolchazy, as well as the Vergil workbook. It's definitely secular, and seems like it would be considerably cheaper than a tutor. ETA: You could still list this as Latin 4 on the transcript, followed by AP Latin (if he chooses to do AP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I've heard good things about the Lone Pine classes, so that might be a good option. You could talk to Amy and see if she has any suggestions. They've been at this for long enough now that she may have had other young students in a similar situation. 1Togo, sorry it took me awhile to write back about the Word Studies. Dd has been sick ever since we got home from camp. :sad: It has been over a year since my dds have had to write one, so I hope I'm remembering everything correctly! Every 4 weeks or so, Latin 3 students pick a word from one of their assigned translations and write a paper (a word study) about it. It's best to pick an "interesting" word--one that isn't too basic or cut and dry, but maybe has multiple meanings or changed over time. They have to find examples of the word being used by classical authors and then analyze how each author uses the word in the passages. If I remember correctly, the papers weren't too long, maybe around 2 pages. The students peer review all of the papers and turn in their comments as part of their grade. There were 17 or 18 people in dds' class, so peer review could be a lengthy process. At least in our family, there was a learning curve in the beginning when they were trying to figure out what a word study was (not a format my dds had experience with), but by the end of the year things were running pretty smoothly. Hope this helps some! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Elise, The paper doesn't sound too bad, but the peer reviews sounds time consuming. I don't like peer reviews for this reason and others. So, their grade comes in part from their peer reviews? Ugh! Also, how do they find examples of the word in classical writing? Thank you so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjbucks1 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 The paper doesn't sound too bad, but the peer reviews sounds time consuming. I don't like peer reviews for this reason and others. So, their grade comes in part from their peer reviews? Ugh! Also, how do they find examples of the word in classical writing? I am not Elise, but thought I would chime in. The peer reviews really aren't that time consuming, IMO, because the papers are not that long. It allows the students to see some really wonderful writing, as well as understand those that are not so wonderful. They have 6 word studies throughout the year (3 per semester), so there are not that many. The word study is based on a word they have had in their translations (they do not have to read through a ton of Latin looking for that specific word). I think my ds actually enjoyed them. The kids really dig into why an author may have chosen a specific word given all the different nuances of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 The Word Studies really aren't bad, I promise, and "time-consuming" is relative! (In the interest of full-disclosure, my dds have inherited my tendency to over-do things. :blushing: ) They both spent a lot of time trying to be specific with their feedback, though they definitely got a lot quicker/more efficient as time went on. Mrs. Barr suggests that the students write up their comments in a word doc or something similar as they read through the essays for peer reviews, and then they copy and paste these comments in an online form that she provides. They also give each paper a numeric rating (1-5) for specific things. I don't know how much weight is given to other students' comments and ratings. I'm sure Mrs. Barr has some system for it, but her opinion definitely weighs most heavily. Also, each student is given points for the peer reviews that they write (this encourages more detailed feedback and helps avoid the "Great job!"-type comments.) I think the reason for the peer reviews is to: 1.ensure careful reading of the papers--these word studies are terrific vocabulary builders in and of themselves! and 2. to better their own writing by seeing how other people approach similar topics. Oh, and as far as looking through tons of examples to find the words, Amy gives the students lots of links at the beginning of the semester and tells them how to search for the words, so no worries there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 MJ, TU. Dd has been worried about the workload. This sounds fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allearia Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 Okay, so we are at to sign up for Lone Pine Latin 300/400, but the time overlaps another class by 15 minutes. I am hoping to be able to switch the other class or we may drop it, but any other recommendations for secular non-AP Latin 3 or 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 .. any other recommendations for secular non-AP Latin 3 or 4? Latin Alive 3 with Prof Dale Grote at Harvey Center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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