It will be okay, right?

[CrunchyGirl]

LegoMan turned 7 two weeks ago. He starts algebra via LOF tomorrow. Hold me.

 

Up until yesterday I was going to insist he finish the SM IP5 but I know he's going to be miserable. I was planning to start DM by the fall.

 

My gut says this is the right move. That he needs new concepts to learn. That the constant rehashing of elementary concepts is really frustrating him. But then I start thinking about it and I get scared I'm going to screw him up somehow.

 

Why is this so scary? It's just math right? We can always hit algebra again with a better text right?

 

Meanwhile he's thrilled. He's practically memorized all the Fred books up to this point, reads them daily, and sleeps with them.

[Mike in SA]

If a kid is ready for algebra, then he is ready.  DS7 started learning it on his own, because he wants to do advanced physics.

 

That said, don't feel that you need to stick to anyone's idea of an appropriate progression.  If you are thinking of algebra at 7, then those progressions do not apply to your child AT ALL.  Algebra shouldn't follow prealgebra.

 

Instead, try to add in number theory, counting and probability, formal geometry, and symbolic logic.  I could imagine an effective sequence that looks like:

 

Pre-algebra

Theory of Arithmetic

Geometry (Planimetry)

Counting and Probability

Beginning and Intermediate Algebra (equivalent of algebra 1 + algebra 2)

Intermediate Number Theory

Geometry (Stereometry)

Trigonometry

College Algebra (algebra 3)

Analytic Geometry

Symbolic Logic

Introductory Modern Algebra

Geometry (non-Euclidean)

Precalculus (review / prep for calculus)

 

That would be a child ready to demolish a college math curriculum at a tender age of 13 or 14, with no holding back ever having occurred...  In fact, that would already be 5 college-level courses.

 

Rushing through a math curriculum because you can sounds cool, but it isn't always the best option.  Only you can know, though.

 

One other thing you can do, if you are feeling a bit uncertain: alternate courses.  Interweave algebra with geometry.  Take twice as long, but do each deeper... 

 

[Eagle]

If you have an ipad, get him the DragonBox apps. He will love them, and they are very useful for figuring out algebraic concepts on your own.

[boscopup]

If he's ready, he's ready. If he's not ready, it will become apparent, and he's so young that it will be easy to back up or go sideways until he is ready. :)

[CrunchyGirl]

If you have an ipad, get him the DragonBox apps. He will love them, and they are very useful for figuring out algebraic concepts on your own.

 

That app is awesome! He's actually 1/2 a level from beating it (probably will do so later today). The last few days he went back and made sure he'd solved every puzzle on every level in the recommended number of moves although he was quite proud he could do a number of them in less moves.

 

I tell you, this kid is going to be the death of me!

[CrunchyGirl]

If a kid is ready for algebra, then he is ready.  DS7 started learning it on his own, because he wants to do advanced physics.

 

That said, don't feel that you need to stick to anyone's idea of an appropriate progression.  If you are thinking of algebra at 7, then those progressions do not apply to your child AT ALL.  Algebra shouldn't follow prealgebra.

 

Instead, try to add in number theory, counting and probability, formal geometry, and symbolic logic.  I could imagine an effective sequence that looks like:

 

Pre-algebra

Theory of Arithmetic

Geometry (Planimetry)

Counting and Probability

Beginning and Intermediate Algebra (equivalent of algebra 1 + algebra 2)

Intermediate Number Theory

Geometry (Stereometry)

Trigonometry

College Algebra (algebra 3)

Analytic Geometry

Symbolic Logic

Introductory Modern Algebra

Geometry (non-Euclidean)

Precalculus (review / prep for calculus)

 

That would be a child ready to demolish a college math curriculum at a tender age of 13 or 14, with no holding back ever having occurred...  In fact, that would already be 5 college-level courses.

 

Rushing through a math curriculum because you can sounds cool, but it isn't always the best option.  Only you can know, though.

 

One other thing you can do, if you are feeling a bit uncertain: alternate courses.  Interweave algebra with geometry.  Take twice as long, but do each deeper... 

 

Great ideas! Thank you! We're thinking about contacting the local grad school too and seeing if maybe they have a master's student who wants a little tutoring gig on the side. I'm hoping we can find someone who LOVES math as much as he does and will share his joy out of sitting and doing problems and solving puzzles.

[Kerileanne99]

I think it is wonderful that you are following his lead:)

But I absolutely get how scary it might be. When my dd4 was 3 and working through the earlier SM books after RSA and B, I didn't consider it a big deal. She LOVES math, so okay, it is fine...just arithmetic, right?

Now she is 4.5 and it recently occurred to me to check the trajectory. Obviously, she may slow down, or get side-tracked. That would be just fine.

But on Thursday she stayed with the neighbor all morning. When I picked her up she had completed 26 pages in SM 4A. Some of this is because she likes the Key to...series so SM is a bit of a repeat. But wow, I spend A LOT of time and energy wondering jus how this will all work out!

 

I love the idea of finding a math mentor who truly has a passion for sharing it. Hopefully you can find someone who has a great background in more non-traditional areas of math. And then hold on, because it seems that if you feed the beast? It GROWS:)

[Crimson Wife]

DM is a perfectly rigorous course, and while there's nothing wrong with using something like AOPS or Elements of Mathematics in addition to DM with a bright child, I take exception to the idea that you NEED to. Do get the DM workbook if you haven't already because the problems in the wb are generally harder than those in the textbook.

[Dmmetler]

I'll also add that you may find that your DS stretches things out a bit. DD is starting AOPS Algebra at age 9 after starting LOF PA at age 7. During the last two years, she's done LOF PA and beginning algebra, all of Key to Algebra, AOPS PA, lots of math competition prep materials, several statistics resources, and several Dover math books on different topics. And she doesn't seem to mind that she's essentially starting her 3rd year of what would normally be considered Algebra 1-because she's had a blast doing it and keeps finding new things to learn. This year, her stack of desired books includes LOF Advanced Algebra and Geometry, AOPS Algebra, a MathCounts prep book, an AP statistics text she's working through, and several books on number theory, topology, and combinatorics. So far, she's managed to surprise me because when she's needed math to do something, she's been able to figure it out.

 

I will also add-the greatest gift you can give your child is helping them find adults who take them seriously and provide that support in the areas they wish to learn.  For my DD, finding herpetology and field biology mentors has made such a difference to her emotionally, and also, inadvertently, seems to have halted the drive to get through material quickly. It was like previously she had to move to the book with the next harder number on the cover to prove that she was learning something new to her and that she was making progress. She's much more willing to go on non-linear paths and follow the highways and byways that it takes her in now that she has several adults providing suggestions and support for the next step in the world that she truly wants to be part of. FWIW, she's also stopped making comments like "I want to go to college so I can learn REAL stuff!"-which I heard a lot at age 7, because she IS learning "Real stuff". She's also a much, much happier child most of the time.

 

 

 

 

[CrunchyGirl]

I really like DM too. I've been working through it myself in preparation. I wish we'd used that more integrated model when I was in school.

[lewelma]

It will be ok. :001_smile:  The biggest gift I can give my ds is to actually listen to him talk about the math he is learning.  I typically don't have a clue, but I try to ask a question here or there so that he knows I am trying.  Sometimes I feel like math is a hard passion for a kid to have because no one wants to listen, ever.  It's not like being a great musician or writer or artist or athlete, where everyone oohs and ahhs over your accomplishments.  If my son brings up this great proof that he has been working on for days and finally solved, people typically roll their eyes or and say something like "I don't know what you are talking about".  It can be very disheartening for him.

 

So I'll say it again, the biggest gift you can give is a very big ear and genuine interest, which does get more difficult to do as they move up!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Dmmetler]

It will be ok. :001_smile:  The biggest gift I can give my ds is to actually listen to him talk about the math he is learning.  I typically don't have a clue, but I try to ask a question here or there so that he knows I am trying.  Sometimes I feel like math is a hard passion for a kid to have because no one wants to listen, ever.  It's not like being a great musician or writer or artist or athlete, where everyone oohs and ahhs over your accomplishments.  If my son brings up this great proof that he has been working on for days and finally solved, people typically roll their eyes or and say something like "I don't know what you are talking about".  It can be very disheartening for him.

 

So I'll say it again, the biggest gift you can give is a very big ear and genuine interest, which does get more difficult to do as they move up!

 

Ruth in NZ

Or learn how to fake it :). I freely admit that there are times that DD gets started and it's kind of like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher in the TV shows- something something something snakes...something something, neat scale development....evolutionary process....comparable to birds...something, something, something.... I try to listen, and I can usually manage to be active enough to at least appear eager and to try to follow, but sometimes, I think I'd have an easier time understanding if she were speaking a language I don't know about a topic that I do.

 

 

I felt a little better when I realized that most of the adults at DD's herp group seem to be able to understand and follow about as much as I can-including the high school science teacher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CrunchyGirl]

I'll also add that you may find that your DS stretches things out a bit. DD is starting AOPS Algebra at age 9 after starting LOF PA at age 7. During the last two years, she's done LOF PA and beginning algebra, all of Key to Algebra, AOPS PA, lots of math competition prep materials, several statistics resources, and several Dover math books on different topics. And she doesn't seem to mind that she's essentially starting her 3rd year of what would normally be considered Algebra 1-because she's had a blast doing it and keeps finding new things to learn. This year, her stack of desired books includes LOF Advanced Algebra and Geometry, AOPS Algebra, a MathCounts prep book, an AP statistics text she's working through, and several books on number theory, topology, and combinatorics. So far, she's managed to surprise me because when she's needed math to do something, she's been able to figure it out.

 

 

I really hope he slows down! I'm crossing my fingers. I've been thinking about it more today and I think what worries me is that it feels like we are quickly going to max out what I'm comfortable teaching and while DH is more mathy, he won't last much longer than I do. I guess it's just scary to think about my very little kid surpassing what we can reasonably help him with (although of course we are very proud of him). But alas, maybe he'll take 3 years to do algebra. That sounds wonderful (and gives us time to frantically study ahead!)

 

I think the other challenge right now is that his math ability is outpacing his maturity. He's pretty mature for a seven year old but still...he's a little kid. So I look through DM and while I think there is plenty to challenge him there, it's not colorful, fun, and/or silly. I think we somehow have to balance challenging him and giving him new things to learn with something that appeals to a silly little boy. As much as Fred isn't my cup of tea, LegoMan thinks of him as a dear friend and will follow him to the ends of the earth.

[Dmmetler]

I really hope he slows down! I'm crossing my fingers. I've been thinking about it more today and I think what worries me is that it feels like we are quickly going to max out what I'm comfortable teaching and while DH is more mathy, he won't last much longer than I do. I guess it's just scary to think about my very little kid surpassing what we can reasonably help him with (although of course we are very proud of him). But alas, maybe he'll take 3 years to do algebra. That sounds wonderful (and gives us time to frantically study ahead!)

 

I think the other challenge right now is that his math ability is outpacing his maturity. He's pretty mature for a seven year old but still...he's a little kid. So I look through DM and while I think there is plenty to challenge him there, it's not colorful, fun, and/or silly. I think we somehow have to balance challenging him and giving him new things to learn with something that appeals to a silly little boy. As much as Fred isn't my cup of tea, LegoMan thinks of him as a dear friend and will follow him to the ends of the earth.

 

That's why we've kept LOF, too-DD still likes "cute" and friendly, and AOPS, while great and while she likes it better, math-wise, than LOF, it's just plain not "cute". I bought LOF LA this year for the same reason-it's going to be easy for her, but it's cute and I think she considers Fred the little brother she doesn't have (and, in real life, doesn't particularly want-although if he were a 5 yr old math genius,  she might think differently).,

 

 

[lewelma]

Or learn how to fake it :). I freely admit that there are times that DD gets started and it's kind of like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher in the TV shows- something something something snakes...something something, neat scale development....evolutionary process....comparable to birds...something, something, something.... I try to listen, and I can usually manage to be active enough to at least appear eager and to try to follow, but sometimes, I think I'd have an easier time understanding if she were speaking a language I don't know about a topic that I do.

 

Perhaps I was not clear.  This is EXACTLY what I do.  :001_smile:  I'm apparently a pretty good actress because he hasn't figured out yet that I am clueless. We are talking about 1 hour a day at this point that he goes (picture charlie brown)  blaah blaaaah blaah blah blah blaah. 

[quark]

It will be fine, really. Just breathe and run with it. If it gets overwhelming, breathe some more and put the books aside and watch a math documentary or something. You will have freak out days and you will have fantastic, mind-blowing days. You will hit snags and realize that they are just stepping stones for him to figure things out. You will hyperventilate often enough but you will also have many celebratory moments. It's just algebra. (Hee hee).

 

I was just talking to a friend today. We haven't spoken to each other for 6 months because we've both been super busy. But we picked up right where we left off and were reminiscing how 2-3 years ago we were both worrying and pulling our hair out wondering what to do about our respective kiddos. Now both, aged 11-12, are headed to post-high school options but in different directions. Two boys with similar passions but very different learning styles and needs nevertheless. It worked out. We moms made it happen somehow, thank goodness. But we also worried a lot on the way there. It's all part of the journey.

 

He will slow down once he hits really challenging stuff. Don't be afraid to throw the hard stuff at him. Good luck.

[lewelma]

I really hope he slows down! I'm crossing my fingers. I've been thinking about it more today and I think what worries me is that it feels like we are quickly going to max out what I'm comfortable teaching and while DH is more mathy, he won't last much longer than I do. I guess it's just scary to think about my very little kid surpassing what we can reasonably help him with (although of course we are very proud of him). But alas, maybe he'll take 3 years to do algebra. That sounds wonderful (and gives us time to frantically study ahead!)

 

I think the other challenge right now is that his math ability is outpacing his maturity. He's pretty mature for a seven year old but still...he's a little kid. So I look through DM and while I think there is plenty to challenge him there, it's not colorful, fun, and/or silly. I think we somehow have to balance challenging him and giving him new things to learn with something that appeals to a silly little boy. As much as Fred isn't my cup of tea, LegoMan thinks of him as a dear friend and will follow him to the ends of the earth.

 

Well, here is the deal.  My ds is set to go to the IMO in 10th grade, and he does not have a tutor or a parent who understands.  Given that this is the top math competition in the world, and he has not run out of material, I don't think that your ds will. (I hope that did not sound incredibly arrogant!)

 

There is just so much cool stuff to learn.  And now with both paid (AoPS) and free (coursera, edX) courses available that are actually great, your ds as he gets older and more mature can self teach. So, for example, DS is interested in an artificial intelligence coursera class, but he needs symbolic logic to do it.  Luckily there is one of those classes too. There is just more more more!

 

The other thing to know is that you can easily race ahead if you are only doing algorithmic math, you know the kind - here's an example, now do 5.  And sometimes a small extension to something a bit different.  But mathematical problem solving takes an equal amount of time to develop, and it is typically overlooked.  AoPS challengers develop this skill.  Each problem can take an hour or 2 (or more!) to solve.  You have to learn to think out of the box.  So there is a 5th grader in my son's Algebra 3 AoPS class, but he can't solve any of the problems without a hint. But basically the hint is the *insight* that is problem solving.  So he is really only doing half of the class, the algorithmic half.  My ds slowed waaaaay down when he spent 3 years on AoPS's intro algebra doing every. single. challenger.  Basically in those 3 years he developed the problem solving skill that is required to go to the IMO or study advanced math.

[Dmmetler]

I think there are two sides to running out

 

The first is that, no, you won't run out of content. There's plenty of math, or any other subject area out there, and it doesn't require moving in a linear path to find it.

 

The second, though, is a bit harder, because there can be a lot of serendipity involved in making the connections that allow a child to go beyond what a parent can offer by themselves. In my DD's case, there are a lot of factors that have let her end up where she is now, and they include things like being in a large enough urban area to HAVE hobbyist groups, while still also being near enough to state parks and federal lands to allow doing field work. They include being an only child in a family with enough financial flexibility and stability to make homeschooling viable and travel to follow DD's interests viable. They include having parents who aren't ophidophobic. And it includes being at the right place at the right time to meet the right people, who then introduce you to someone else-and having a child who's personality is such that they're comfortable talking to adults.

 

If you don't have the situation needed to make those connections, it's going to be much, much harder to avoid "running out" of content, especially in subjects that cannot be fully learned without access to higher levels of equipment and resources. Being good at a subject isn't enough, even with the internet.

 

 

 

 

[Spring Flower]

He's practically memorized all the Fred books up to this point, reads them daily, and sleeps with them.

 

  :001_smile:  This is Fred in our house, too. 

[Gil]

Question: "It will be okay, right?"

Answer: "Yes.

 

I don't know why, but even thought I knew my boys would be advanced beyond their peers thanks to the lessons and work we did at home, and I purposefully advanced them, I never intended to homeschool and once we started I flipped out a lot about stuff--especially mathematics. My boys Pal and Buddy are 6.5 and 7.5 and they are both finishing up their first official Algebra textbook.

 

We'd done a ton of elementary math and finally, finally they got into Algebra and you know what--nothing magical happened. My head didn't implode, their heads didn't explode. The night sky didn't light up with fairy rainbow sparkles. They're polishing off quadratics and eager to start Algebra 2 and Geometry.

 

Their problem solving skills could use some work, and we are going to use Singapore DM and the workbooks, along with some New Math texts and maybe we'll give AoPS a try afterward, I don't know. Its okay to not know. 

[lewelma]

 Its okay to not know. 

 

This is such a great point.  Kids like this do not progress linearly.

[Mike in SA]

This is such a great point.  Kids like this do not progress linearly.

 

Exactly.  This is why I love teaching young kids number theory and abstract algebra.  They have no preconceptions about what math is, or what is hard.  Kids like this, who abstract far beyond the abilities of their peers, and definitely far beyond the abilities of most adults, can do amazing things when given the chance.

 

Instead of racing to the finish line, take a left turn, and let them build a ridiculously strong foundation at the outset.  Then, watch in astonishment when they dissect mundane courses.  It's a beautiful thing to see...

[Laura Corin]

It will be all right, so long as you listen to your child and follow where he leads.

 

I was often very scared when Calvin was small.  It was fine in the end.  I'm not qualified to say if you can 'run out' of maths; Calvin didn't run out of literature to read or languages to learn, however.

 

L