Classical Conversations / Memory Work with Dyslexia

[MorganTrinity]

My child does not seem to remember any our Classical Conversations memory work!!  Last year was our first year in Classical Conversations.  We went over the memory work last year by having her repeat each weekly memory topic three times and listening to it in the car.  She was having problems remembering especially in geography.  I just got the cds for cycle 3.  She doesn't remember the presidents song that we worked on pretty hard last year. 

 

She has been diagnosis with dyslexia.  I think this may play a part.  Any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

 

***Cross-posted in K-8 board, but I think it should go here.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Welcome!  and  :grouphug:

 

First, you have a diagnosis but are you working on remediation?  How is her reading, writing, spelling, etc.?  What are you using to help?

 

FWIW, rote memorization is virtually impossible for my dyslexic kids.  This is actually one reason we did not join Classical Conversations.  Unless i can associate the material with something they can anchor to, just repeating lines, even copying those lines over and over, is absolutely useless.  They will not retain it long term.  Putting it to music sometimes helps but not with comprehension, just ability to parrot back the material.  Sometimes there is long-term retention and sometimes not.

 

Best wishes....

 

(P.S. Sorry I don't have a lot of suggestions for you right now.  I need to run fix dinner.  Hopefully someone else can chime in with something more helpful.)

[Lecka]

You  might look for the book Dyslexic Advantage at the library, it had some helpful ideas for me.  My son needs background information, full background information, before he can start to organize details and retain details.  There is a visual of a ladder.  Some people build up the ladder from the bottom to the top.  Some people need the frame of the ladder and then can add information to each rung.  

 

My son has done best starting with a straight-forward factual introduction.  Then he can understand a narrative.  He does not do well starting from a narrative, he does not quite know what is going on.

 

Though he seems like he is getting to a point where he has enough background information in general, that it is not such an issue, but it may come up again as he gets older, too.  

 

But yeah, memorizing days of the week, phone number, address, months of the year, math facts, etc, are not something that he is just going to pick up in 1st grade because they have gone over it a few times and sang some songs.  It just takes him much more exposure.  But he is a smart kid, these are just challenges for him.

 

So -- there may be some simple book that could give some context, and go with the songs, even though it is not technically part of CC.  Or maybe some parts are more appropriate than others and better choices.  I am not really clear on how it works tbh.  

 

But if something is a reasonable thing to focus on, it is possible, it is reasonable, then I think that adding in context and talking about things is the way to go.  Maybe visual supports would help, so she could see and hear as well as say.  It doesn't have to be written words, it could be pictures, maybe.  You can also cut down the length of the song, and concentrate on one portion of it to mastery before adding other sections.  You can start at the beginning, or you can start at the end.  If she might know more about recent presidents, you can start at the end and maybe she can pick them up faster, and then go to the beginning.  I don't know on that -- just throwing it out there.  

 

You also might need to review more, not put things away for the summer, if you want her to have that kind of mastery.  It also may be that she has been exposed and has an exposure level that is still helpful to her, even if she is not at the total mastery level. I do find that with my son -- sometimes more has sunken in than I thought, and it comes up quite a bit later, that he did get something out of things that I thought were just lost and gone.  

 

With my younger son it is better for him to get mastery of a smaller amount of material, and have a few things going on, but with him instead of listening to several songs, we might start with one part of one song and then another verse or a verse of a different song..... he is not one where it works to bombard him ---- he just needs less at a time, but he is also capable of learning when things are broken down for him.  But that is what works with him, a lot of kids would be bored and do better not to do it that way, or be able to learn a little of each all at once.  It was a new idea to me though when it was introduced to me.  

 

Good luck with her reading program :)  I wish you the best :)

 

I just read Dyslexic Advantage from the library and I think there were more learning strategies -- the one about adding a context is what was useful for my son.  I look for non-fiction books with pictures first, then go from there to story books.  If it doesn't seem to help -- try something else :)

 

Edit:  My younger son has a "maintenance box" for material that he has mastered, but that he needs to go through once in a while, so that he doesn't forget it.  We spend some time going through his maintenance box and hope to get through it all every two weeks to one month.  If something from the maintenance box is missed or shaky, it goes into a review box that we try to get through weekly, and if it is retained for two weeks in a row, it can go back to the maintenance box.  

 

That is all for things that he has had "mastery" of in the first place -- that he can do on day 2 without having gone over it since day 1, and that he can do again on day 4 with no exposure on day 3 ----- or something like that.  That is when it can go into the review box, or straight to the maintenance box if it is something that will have built-in review (by building on that knowledge, or b/c it is around a lot, something like that).  My son's therapist is organizing it to some extent.  

 

But that is what a box system might be like -- but you do it to fit how much review it seems to take.  If too much from the maintenance box is forgotten, it needs to be cycled through more quickly.  If not very much from the maintenance box is forgotten, then it is probably seeing enough review.  

 

I do not do anything that formal with my older son -- most things I have pushed with him, have been things that have come up often and there has not been need for review (like -- what sound does something make in phonics -- he needed massive exposure and practice, but then he would see it when he read) or else I am okay with him having an exposure more than mastery -- or it just seems like he has a pretty good grasp.  But I also try to go back and read a story or something -- and if it seems shaky I want to do a little more on the same topic before he forgets it all.  

[craftyerin]

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[MorganTrinity]

Thanks for the replies!!!! She is only six, but the other kids in CC her age seem to pick it up easily.  I find a song for EVERYTHING or I know there is no hope of her remembering.  We just recently got an official diagnosis.  She is seeing a therapist that I we will not be able to afford for long.  The therapist is using the Lindamood Bell method with her and then I intend to start Barton and take over.

 

Even though she is still little, I suspected dyslexia for a while.  Ambidextrous, visually spatially all over the place, the dyslexia is so obvious, especially in hind sight.

 

If we ever get anything to stick, I will definitely be using the memorization box idea!  

[Storygirl]

My DD does not have an official dyslexia diagnosis yet, but I'm fairly certain she has it. She has a terrible time memorizing anything. I think it is not an uncommon problem.

 

So, can I dare to ask you to consider whether Classical Conversations is really the right thing for her? Can you find an approach that suits her better? I know you didn't ask for opinions on this, but personally I wouldn't stick with something that is not working and that is likely to make her not only frustrated but also feel that she is failing compared to her peers.

[Tokyomarie]

People with dyslexia typically have difficulties with rote memorization....just as others ahead of me have said about their children, my children with dyslexia have had difficulties with memorizing days of the week, months of the year, math facts, and the like. Just repeating them over and over doesn't work. However, dyslexic people often have strong memories for narrative. They do much better with story telling, especially getting the big picture, more so than details of a story. Creating a story from facts is one strategy that can help.

 

Dyslexic people also tend to be strong at making associations. So, associating one piece of information with another and creating a visual to go with it, can really help.  For learning the months of the year, creating calendars and drawing pictures of a key holiday or season change can help. People tend to connect emotionally with seasons and holidays. Things with an emotional connection tend to get remembered more, so tying the name of the month to the holiday in that month can help children gradually come to remember that month's name.

 

I second the recommendation to find curriculum that respects the way your child's brain is wired to learn. I wish I had better understood that when my son was 6yo. I could have saved him a lot of frustration. Some ideas from classical education were helpful for us, such as doing history chronologically in a roughly 4 year cycle. However, especially in younger years, we focused on the "story" part of history, rather than memorizing of little details. Keeping a timeline was helpful, but we used timeline figures rather than just writing words. We did  map work which was tied to the history we were reading.  Other ideas were not so helpful- especially those that focused on learning things in minute detail early in life.

 

In any case, dyslexic students learn best through multi-sensory methods, which means that the more senses you can involved in the learning process- auditory, visual, kinesthetic (touch & movement), even smell & taste in some instances, the more easily the child can learn. Repetition is important, but not rote repetition. Repetition through presenting ideas in multiple formats is helpful.  

 

The last thought to leave you with is that these kids are late bloomers in many aspects of formal academics, especially reading and writing. That doesn't mean that we don't consistently teach them, but it is important to keep in mind that with consistent multi-sensory teaching, these students learn those skills but they tend to reach their highest achievement a little later in life than the typical person.  It's best not to compare a dyslexic child against her peers in that respect. She may be every bit as intelligent- or even more- than those around her, but will often not appear to be so in the younger years. Encourage her by telling her that she has a good brain but it is a brain that learns differently from the brains belonging to many of her friends.

[Heathermomster]

When DS was about 4 years old, I had him memorize Eph 6:2-3 and he repeated it back to me whenever he disobeyed.  That was 10 years ago, and he still knows that verse.

 

DS attended a private Christian school from pre-k to 6th grade.   His first memory verse in kindie was Psalm 150, and it took four weeks to memorize.  There was clapping of hands, stomping feet, and singing.  Every week of school, the students were expected to memorize  Bible, a shorter catechism question and answer, or both, and DS did it.  He was always prepared.  Somehow the child learned to memorize.  I use mnemonics myself and when we study, we develop them together.  We've done it so much that DS will seek memory cues while studying a lesson.

 

He did not use rote memory to learn math facts, and he struggles with grammar.  In spite of my son's ability to memorize, CC is the last program that I would use with him.  

[Heathermomster]

dp

[MorganTrinity]

So, can I dare to ask you to consider whether Classical Conversations is really the right thing for her? Can you find an approach that suits her better? I know you didn't ask for opinions on this, but personally I wouldn't stick with something that is not working and that is likely to make her not only frustrated but also feel that she is failing compared to her peers.

I know this probably is not the way to think about it, but I've already sunk money into it for this year so we have one more year of it. I know ***bad mommy*** thinking!

 

You are all right, she learns with stories. We do a million audio books! With CC, I like the Essentials and Challenge programs so much. I like the look of them because she is an incredible story teller so I think she could be an incredible writer. I'm just going to have to get her there another way.

 

BTW, it is so nice to talk to people who really get my kid!!

[MorganTrinity]

DP

[Heathermomster]

Due to processing speed and working memory deficits, it is likely that your DD cannot work at the same speed as a neurotypical child.  Typical classical education materials are not written with the learning challenged student in mind, so give yourself permission to rip the materials apart and teach to the student in front of you.  You paid for the materials, so make the curricula work for you and your child.  Take a more hands-on approach with learning and maybe take longer to do the memory work.  Blessings, h

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Have you seen the book Simply Classical by Cheryl Swope?  I see that Memoria Press now sells curriculum specifically designed for learning issues with Kindie and pre-k students.

[Storygirl]

I know this probably is not the way to think about it, but I've already sunk money into it for this year so we have one more year of it. I know ***bad mommy*** thinking!

 

 

 

Aww!! Don't be hard on yourself.  I totally understand seeing something through when you've made a financial commitment. Just do your best to adapt it to make it work as well as it can for her. 

[SoCal_Bear]

When you say sunk money into it, do you mean the tuition money or the materials? Maybe talk to the director of your campus and see if you can possibly get a refund since you have a diagnosis? I imagine that CC materials won't be hard to resell.

 

 

[MorganTrinity]

I dropped Classical Conversations!  I don't really have a clear plan for the fall.  I can only afford a Barton tutor once a week and then work with her the rest of the week.  I can't seem to concentrate on anything else until we get the reading up to speed.

[thundersweet]

I think you did the right thing! I thought about CC for my son but I just knew if wouldn't work for him. Memorization can be so difficult for a dyslexic child. We are using Barton and my ds is doing amazing with it. I'm doing all the tutoring myself. For me, my big focus is reading and spelling at the moment. I'm still doing all of the other stuff but those are my priorities with him. Math too! My ds is turning 10 this month and we are in level 4.

 

Sandy

[OneStepAtATime]

I dropped Classical Conversations!  I don't really have a clear plan for the fall.  I can only afford a Barton tutor once a week and then work with her the rest of the week.  I can't seem to concentrate on anything else until we get the reading up to speed.

Have you thought about tutoring her in Barton yourself?  DVD support and totally scripted for the parent/tutor.  LOTS cheaper than hiring a tutor and you can do it 3-4 times a week or more, in shorter sessions, so there is more consistency.  

[MorganTrinity]

Her tutor lends me the blank tiles and make a copy of a page from the Barton workbook so I can work with her during the week.   She tends to shut down on me sometimes, but then she shuts down on the tutor sometimes too!  We are still on Level 1 so I hope she can get rolling soon.

[OneStepAtATime]

I understand.  I hope things work out.  It is great that the tutor is lending you tiles and giving you the papers to work on.  Did you get your money back from CC?  Really, really hoping they were understanding and supportive of your situation.